Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[melvinmelvin]

5 hours ago, SuperTed said:

Generally speaking, changing bureaucracies is better done from within the superstructure than by assaulting the superstructure or trying to build a second one. Because of the way Britain went about the decision - a ballot initiative- you lost the opportunity to threaten the EU into implementing change. This is what the US is doing, in small part, at the UN, and should be doing more of.

Britain is stuffed - leaving the EU is bad for Britain, but the uncertainty around leaving is worse. Uncertainty is always bad for business, as it drastically decreases the value of deployed capital and capital looking to invest.

certainty cannot be guaranteed in democratic countries

the future is defined by politicians

 

if business want certainty, longterm stable conditions for doing business;

fine; go to Qatar, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China

 

UK, US, Italy, France, Germany cannot offer that, it is contrary to a democratic system

new president, new government, new rulez

that is how democracy works

 

don't want to do business in that environment? go east go dictatorships

 

 

[nauseus]

43 minutes ago, bomber said:

and what percentage of voters do you think understood what the CU and SM actually mean,less that 20% imo,the vote was 80% about immigration built on patriotic,we know better BS and lies

Bah humbug.

[AlexRich]

57 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The Vote to Leave was the to Leave the EU, SM and Customs union as stated many times by Cameron, Osborne and Clegg and many others likewise the vote to Remain was to remain in the EU, SM and CU I haven't heard a single person that voted Remain and thought their vote to remain would exclude remaining in the SM and CU

Remain was status quo, and Leave was whatever a Leave politician said it would be, whether true or false. None of them campaigned to leave on a crash out basis, they all promised smooth transitions and as much cake as you can eat ... the same benefits plus ... their lies is coming back to haunt them.

[7by7]

2 minutes ago, nontabury said:

38 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

If you are so certain of the support for Brexit, why are you afraid of a second referendum?

As I‘ve already explained, I‘m not afraid. Unlike yourself who is obviously afraid that, when we finally leave the E.u the U.K will prosper.

So why are you so against having a second, final, decisive referendum if you are convinced you'd win?

 

I said in the posts you part quoted what i an afraid of:

39 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

As I have already said, I am scared of what will become of my country after Brexit. I very much doubt that future generations will be thanking us for making this huge mistake as they see the EU prosper and us become a second rate trading nation.

 

[nontabury]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

So why are you so against having a second, final, decisive referendum if you are convinced you'd win?

 

I said in the posts you part quoted what i an afraid of:

 

Again I repeat,I am firstly awaiting for the implementation of the Democratic people’s vote of 2016.

 

 

[AlexRich]

46 minutes ago, aright said:

All I ever recall Dyson saying about Brexit was his opinion not his encouragement.  

Given Dyson hasn't been a UK Company since 2003 and it will continue to employ thousands of highly paid engineers at his Research Division in the UK,  what is your point?

Certainly Dyson has a dislike of the European Union but that was personal. his stance on Singapore or post Brexit Britain however is business. Singapore was chosen because of the local engineering talent and proximity to markets like China widely expected to become the worlds biggest electric car market. None of Dyson's existing products are manufactured in the UK which instead focuses on R&D and intellectual property. His vac cleaner production move happened long before Brexit . Since Brexit he has discontinued no production facilities in the UK, so again, what is your point?    

 

 

“His opinion not his encouragement”

 

Utter tosh, he was flying the flag for Leave, safe in the knowledge that anything nasty would be borne by other people, not by him. A typical Leaver hypocrite. Farage’s family with their German passports, Rees Mogg with his Dublin companies, tax exile Barclay brothers ... a whole line of hypocrites imploring others to bear a burden they won’t have to bear themselves. And you can old people with safe pensions and bought houses to that list. They all want no deal safe in the knowledge that the burden will be borne by others.

 

 

 

 

 

[nauseus]

24 minutes ago, Spidey said:

No. Great Britain. If it were the British Isles then people from the ROI would be British. Try selling that to an Irishman!

Not so. The British Isles do include all of the the island of Ireland. But the British people, or Britons, are only the citizens of the UK and its other territories. Of course the Irish would not stand for it and they'd be right. Not many people call themselves British anyway: the Northern Irish normally identify themselves as just that, similarly with the Scots, Welsh and English.

[AlexRich]

2 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Again I repeat,I am firstly awaiting for the implementation of the Democratic people’s vote of 2016.

 

 

I’m for betrayal ... it might upset Putin, Trump, Dyson, Farage, Le Pen, Tommy Islam, and a bunch of old bigots ... but funnily enough I don’t care about them. Let’s take back control with a democratic final say.

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Again I repeat,I am firstly awaiting for the implementation of the Democratic people’s vote of 2016.

 

 

The country does not want a second referendum according to a Sky poll, it also does not want to extend art 50, but try telling that to someone trying to overturn democracy.

[LucysDad]

2 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

I’m for betrayal ... it might upset Putin, Trump, Dyson, Farage, Le Pen, Tommy Islam, and a bunch of old bigots ... but funnily enough I don’t care about them. Let’s take back control with a democratic final say.

 

 

........ like a broken record...

 

 

29th we are out.... 

[nauseus]

5 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

“His opinion not his encouragement”

 

Utter tosh, he was flying the flag for Leave, safe in the knowledge that anything nasty would be borne by other people, not by him. A typical Leaver hypocrite. Farage’s family with their German passports, Rees Mogg with his Dublin companies, tax exile Barclay brothers ... a whole line of hypocrites imploring others to bear a burden they won’t have to bear themselves. And you can old people with safe pensions and bought houses to that list. They all want no deal safe in the knowledge that the burden will be borne by others.

 

 

 

 

 

How bitter you are. Dyson is British and has a right to say whatever he wants. And all the rest of them. 

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

I’m for betrayal ... it might upset Putin, Trump, Dyson, Farage, Le Pen, Tommy Islam, and a bunch of old bigots ... but funnily enough I don’t care about them. Let’s take back control with a democratic final say.

Why don't you all just have a sing-song instead? 

[7by7]

Both campaigns separated the electorate into three parts:

1. those that supported them no matter what,
2. those that opposed them no matter what,
3. the undecided.

Both campaigns knew that nothing they said or did would change the minds of the first two groups, so they both concentrated on the third.

 

Remain, wrongly in my opinion, based their campaign on what we would lose by leaving, the so-called 'Project Fear.' They should have concentrated on the benefits of membership which we would retain by remaining.

 

Vote Leave made promises they knew could not be kept. They convinced the majority of those in the third group that leaving meant we could keep all the benefits of membership and just ditch the obligations. Now known to be patently false, but enough voters fell for it at the time to tip the balance in Leave's favour.

 

This is why I, and many others, feel the British electorate should be given a second chance before it is too late.

 

A single transferable vote referendum with three options:

1. Leave on the terms agreed between the UK and EU.
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Cancel Article 50 and remain.

 

 

 

[vinny41]

11 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Remain was status quo, and Leave was whatever a Leave politician said it would be, whether true or false. None of them campaigned to leave on a crash out basis, they all promised smooth transitions and as much cake as you can eat ... the same benefits plus ... their lies is coming back to haunt them.

It was a binary choice Remain or Leave the EU which includes leaving the single market and customs union and it was Remain politicians in the form of Cameron Osbourne Clegg and many others that a vote for leave would mean leaving the EU, the single market and the customs union

[aright]

11 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

“His opinion not his encouragement”

 

Utter tosh, he was flying the flag for Leave, safe in the knowledge that anything nasty would be borne by other people, not by him. A typical Leaver hypocrite. Farage’s family with their German passports, Rees Mogg with his Dublin companies, tax exile Barclay brothers ... a whole line of hypocrites imploring others to bear a burden they won’t have to bear themselves. And you can old people with safe pensions and bought houses to that list. They all want no deal safe in the knowledge that the burden will be borne by others.

 

 

 

 

 

Super tosh!

[nauseus]

38 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Have you actually listened to what she is saying in that video? I doubt it, either that or you didn't understand it.

 

She is using certain aspects of the EU, such as monetary union, to attack Kinnock, who she accuses of supporting those aspects, and Delors, who she hated with a passion..

 

Tell us, if she was so against the EU, so anti the UK's membership, why did she sign the Single European Act?

 

She was against a federal Europe, as is every Remainer I know.

 

She believed that, for all it's faults, the UK is better off inside the EU than out: Would Margaret Thatcher be in favor of Brexit?

Would Margaret Thatcher be in favoUr of Brexit?

 

Yes she absolutely would be, as she would have been just before she got the old heave-ho. Her change of mind was the real reason for her being forced out. She had finally realised that the political ambitions of the EEC/EU meant the eventual complete loss of sovereignty for the UK.  

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Both campaigns separated the electorate into three parts:

1. those that supported them no matter what,
2. those that opposed them no matter what,
3. the undecided.

Both campaigns knew that nothing they said or did would change the minds of the first two groups, so they both concentrated on the third.

 

Remain, wrongly in my opinion, based their campaign on what we would lose by leaving, the so-called 'Project Fear.' They should have concentrated on the benefits of membership which we would retain by remaining.

 

Vote Leave made promises they knew could not be kept. They convinced the majority of those in the third group that leaving meant we could keep all the benefits of membership and just ditch the obligations. Now known to be patently false, but enough voters fell for it at the time to tip the balance in Leave's favour.

 

This is why I, and many others, feel the British electorate should be given a second chance before it is too late.

 

A single transferable vote referendum with three options:

1. Leave on the terms agreed between the UK and EU.
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Cancel Article 50 and remain.

 

 

 

You couldn't make it up.......... oh.. hang on.

[7by7]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Would Margaret Thatcher be in favoUr of Brexit?

 

Yes she absolutely would be, as she would have been just before she got the old heave-ho. Her change of mind was the real reason for her being forced out. She had finally realised that the political ambitions of the EEC/EU meant the eventual complete loss of sovereignty for the UK.  

 I suggest you read the linked to article before commenting on it.

 

Here's another one: Margaret Thatcher would not have supported Brexit, says top aide

 

I will grant you, though, that you will be able to find as many articles claiming she would have supported Brexit as I can find saying the opposite. The difference being that mine quote people who actually worked for her or knew her. Though, admittedly, even in that group opinion is divided on the matter: Would Margaret Thatcher have backed Brexit?

Quote

The Iron Lady's former lieutenants disagree over what stance she might have taken in the upcoming EU referendum

 But one fact is irrefutable, at no time during her entire political career or after did she ever publicly suggest we should leave the EU.

 

BTW, 'correcting' American spelling in the headline is a bit rich coming from someone whose own spelling leaves much to be desired!

[7by7]

19 minutes ago, nauseus said:

You couldn't make it up.......... oh.. hang on.

I know one couldn't make it up; that's why I didn't!

 

Instead of a childish remark, why not post an actual counter argument?

 

Is it because you don't have one?

[melvinmelvin]

24 minutes ago, vogie said:

The country does not want a second referendum according to a Sky poll, it also does not want to extend art 50, but try telling that to someone trying to overturn democracy.

 

boomboom polls - there are polls all over the place indicating this and that

 

as to WTO

is UK prepared to trade under WTO rules?

I don't think so, your schedules are not agreed.

 

Silly UK government has been way too late re taking WTO seriously,

 

[dick dasterdly]

Why on earth are some posters going on about Churchill and Thatchers' possible position on this screw-up?

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

boomboom polls - there are polls all over the place indicating this and that

 

as to WTO

is UK prepared to trade under WTO rules?

I don't think so, your schedules are not agreed.

 

Silly UK government has been way too late re taking WTO seriously,

 

Personal request - please give up on "boomboom" in your posts.

 

As soon as I read that, I tend to 'switch off'....

[melvinmelvin]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Why on earth are some posters going on about Churchill and Thatchers' possible position on this screw-up?

 

think I can tell you that

it is much less demanding looking and pissing into the past

than trying to stake out a course ahead

 

paving the way is demanding

 

blahblahing about history less so

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Personal request - please give up on "boomboom" in your posts.

 

As soon as I read that, I tend to 'switch off'....

right, message taken

 

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 I suggest you read the linked to article before commenting on it.

 

Here's another one: Margaret Thatcher would not have supported Brexit, says top aide

 

I will grant you, though, that you will be able to find as many articles claiming she would have supported Brexit as I can find saying the opposite. The difference being that mine quote people who actually worked for her or knew her. Though, admittedly, even in that group opinion is divided on the matter: Would Margaret Thatcher have backed Brexit?

 But one fact is irrefutable, at no time during her entire political career or after did she ever publicly suggest we should leave the EU.

 

BTW, 'correcting' American spelling in the headline is a bit rich coming from someone whose own spelling leaves much to be desired!

The majority of the people "working for her" were the ones who stabbed her in the back. Look carefully at Major's face during the NO NO NO speech. How can anyone trust what they said then or say now?

 

I don't think that she ever suggested we should leave while she was PM but she became increasingly critical of the EEC and M. Delors in particular. The Bruges Speech in 1988 was more anti, than pro EEC.

 

She criticised the EU, just after its formation, in her book Statecraft  with the words: "It is frequently said to be unthinkable that Britain should leave the European Union. But the avoidance of thought about this is a poor substitute for judgment." 

 

So I refute your irrefutable claim and also contend that my spelling is just magnificent!

 

And here's what the FT says as a bonus:

https://www.ft.com/content/0b0afe92-ac40-11e8-8253-48106866cd8a

[melvinmelvin]

44 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Would Margaret Thatcher be in favoUr of Brexit?

 

Yes she absolutely would be, as she would have been just before she got the old heave-ho. Her change of mind was the real reason for her being forced out. She had finally realised that the political ambitions of the EEC/EU meant the eventual complete loss of sovereignty for the UK.  

 

does it matter at all?

she has been out of politics for years

she is dead

 

 

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

does it matter at all?

she has been out of politics for years

she is dead

 

 

Then please inform the originator of this sub-thread. 

[nauseus]

15 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

right, message taken

 

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 I see that, as usual, having lost the argument you resort to childish insults.

 

You did not come out and say that the Roi had to return to British rule, but your suggestion that they meekly leave the EU to comply with our wishes certainly implied it; at last as far as relations with the EU are concerned!

I didn't suggest that they meekly leave the EU to comply with our wishes either. Another add-in from you, Twisty.

[nauseus]

35 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

I know one couldn't make it up; that's why I didn't!

 

Instead of a childish remark, why not post an actual counter argument?

 

Is it because you don't have one?

Your effort was an argument?