Complying with the new retirement extension rules

[JLCrab]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

To add, yes my initial reaction is that this recent set of new orders is indeed going to result in a significant number of legitimate expats leaving Thailand. I don't see that as scare mongering. I see that as seeing things clearly. 

There will be some people who cannot for whatever reason meet the new conditions. Scare mongering and conspiracy theories and agents blocking the door to the IMM office unless you pay them off is something else.

[Jingthing]

17 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

There will be some people who cannot for whatever reason meet the new conditions. Scare mongering and conspiracy theories and agents blocking the door to the IMM office unless you pay them off is something else.

I agree with that. However, it is my guestimate that "some" will actually be a lot and it doesn't take much imagination to think of hundreds of scenarios where these new rules are going to be simply unacceptable and/or unworkable for many. Of course it's guesses at this point. I'm going to exclude those that were lying to embassies and also those using corrupt agents that couldn't qualify before. So of those remaining totally legitimate retired expats here,  my guestimate of those leaving by free choice or push is at least 20 percent but under 50 percent.

Also, totally absurdly the seasoning on steroids rule and virtual 400K untouchable virtual bond will result in many that will be staying spending much less in local businesses. Always the need to watch the seasoning levels and the 400K. All freakin' year! That is not retirement happiness and freedom. It's the opposite. 

 

(New people -- do yourself a favor and seek more welcoming nations for legalized retirement. There are many.)

 

Before this, I saw my "purpose" here as spending money. Now we're being strongly incentivized to spend less money! Crazy stuff. 

Another aspect of this that I consider outrageous and arguably inhumane is the 400K baht thing that could be seen as an emergency fund but if you have to hit it, then you become illegal. People -- think about how outrageous that is. Please. Emergencies happen. That alone I think rates as strong enough evidence that new people should avoid retiring in Thailand. I'm invested here so difficult to leave, but that's an example of how your welfare is regarded here. In effect -- it's not regarded. 

 

This is actually a step down from being regarded as a walking ATM. We'll still be seen as walking ATMS but at the same time also under onerous personal banking oversight. This is one reason I accuse people that cheer on these increasingly onerous rules and mock those that complain or can't comply as suffering from Thai expat Stockholm syndrome. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Jingthing

[JLCrab]

I don't care. A rational discussion of the new regs and even how some might be adversely affected and scare mongering about things like the IMM denying your extension because they have temporarily (for today) converted to the Zoroastrian calendar so you better go see our agent of choice are 2 different things.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

I don't care. A rational discussion of the new regs and even how some might be adversely affected and scare mongering about things like the IMM denying your extension because they have temporarily (for today) converted to the Zoroastrian calendar so you better go see our agent of choice are 2 different things.

I can't disagree with that.

But objectively these changes are really quite unfriendly to retired expats. 

[JLCrab]

Maybe so but their ball and their bat. I'm just gonna have to wait and see what transpires over the next few months because I don't have an agent to give me the inside dope on the QT and all very hush-hush.

Edited February 4, 2019 by JLCrab

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Maybe so but their ball and their bat. I'm just gonna have to wait and see what transpires over the next few months because I don't have an agent to give me the inside dope on the QT and all very hush-hush.

They have bats now?

Now I'm really worried.

[Khaeng Mak]

4 hours ago, wgdanson said:

Why would I need his personal number. I can & have conducted business with him on a professional basis whenever needed.. 

 

The issue is not whether you need his number or not.

 

You were implying that I was lying about having the mobile number for an immigration officer.

 

I said it is easy to get such a number. Just ask.

 

Or do you not speak Thai after 10 years here.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Khaeng Mak

[Khaeng Mak]

27 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

They have bats now?

Now I'm really worried.

The IO field agents have guns.  Don't worry about bats.

[Khaeng Mak]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

I agree with that. However, it is my guestimate that "some" will actually be a lot and it doesn't take much imagination to think of hundreds of scenarios where these new rules are going to be simply unacceptable and/or unworkable for many. Of course it's guesses at this point. I'm going to exclude those that were lying to embassies and also those using corrupt agents that couldn't qualify before. So of those remaining totally legitimate retired expats here,  my guestimate of those leaving by free choice or push is at least 20 percent but under 50 percent.

Also, totally absurdly the seasoning on steroids rule and virtual 400K untouchable virtual bond will result in many that will be staying spending much less in local businesses. Always the need to watch the seasoning levels and the 400K. All freakin' year! That is not retirement happiness and freedom. It's the opposite. 

 

(New people -- do yourself a favor and seek more welcoming nations for legalized retirement. There are many.)

 

Before this, I saw my "purpose" here as spending money. Now we're being strongly incentivized to spend less money! Crazy stuff. 

Another aspect of this that I consider outrageous and arguably inhumane is the 400K baht thing that could be seen as an emergency fund but if you have to hit it, then you become illegal. People -- think about how outrageous that is. Please. Emergencies happen. That alone I think rates as strong enough evidence that new people should avoid retiring in Thailand. I'm invested here so difficult to leave, but that's an example of how your welfare is regarded here. In effect -- it's not regarded. 

 

This is actually a step down from being regarded as a walking ATM. We'll still be seen as walking ATMS but at the same time also under onerous personal banking oversight. This is one reason I accuse people that cheer on these increasingly onerous rules and mock those that complain or can't comply as suffering from Thai expat Stockholm syndrome. 

I started this topic and for the record:

I have been here a long time

I'm not broke

I have never used an agent

I have always done all my extension applications myself

I speak pretty good Thai certainly enough to chat about my application with an IO

 

Please enlighten me as to why any of the questions or comments I have posted here are paranoid.

 

 

[wgdanson]

19 minutes ago, Khaeng Mak said:

The issue is not whether you need his number or not.

 

You were implying that I was lying about having the mobile number for an immigration officer.

 

I said it is easy to get such a number. Just ask.

 

Or do you not speak Thai after 10 years here.

Naaaah, can't be ar**d.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, onera1961 said:

I don't believe whatever others say, the way the police order is written, any time your balance drops below 400K, your extension is invalid. If it drops below 800K for the first three months, your extension is invalid. Better go to the immigration and report it and ask for mercy. May be they will give you 7-day to get out. 

They will certainly give you 7-days for 1900 Baht if you show up the day your extension is no longer valid.  But I don't think that would be necessary, as "street bank-book checks" are not going to happen (soon anyway).

 

For those who don't want to pay off immigration via an agent, when/if their account falls below a threshold for a day (the purpose of convoluted rules) - they could skip applying for their next extension, then spend some time in the PI or somewhere, and come back with a new Non-O, get a fresh bank-book, season money for 2 mo, and start over.  

 

A fresh Non-OA from one's passport country would be even better, if the trip is possible.  Combo applications for those are still possible with the original rules - no myriad of unanswered questions on how they might work.

[ChouDoufu]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Also, totally absurdly the seasoning on steroids rule and virtual 400K untouchable virtual bond will result in many that will be staying spending much less in local businesses. Always the need to watch the seasoning levels and the 400K. All freakin' year! That is not retirement happiness and freedom. It's the opposite.

it's really not that much trouble, at least no more than before in regards to seasoning.

 

if you have a fixed account set up, you simply leave 400K in year-round.  interest accrues and then 15% tax is deducted.  never goes below 400k, so nothing to watch. 

 

2-1/2 months before renewal, add 400k.  3-1/2 months after renewal, withdraw 400k.  that can all be done online.  after each, stop by a mall bank branch and get an update to the passbook.

 

or you can leave 800k in year-round and forget about seasoning requirements.  if you don't mind having $25k locked up, that part is too easy.

[Khaeng Mak]

1 hour ago, wgdanson said:

Naaaah, can't be ar**d.

There we have it.

 

That's why you have never received a mobile number from an IO.

 

Interesting that you are posting like a boss on this issue and liking all the other poisonous and troll posts on this thread and you can't even speak Thai.

 

How the hell would you know what is going on at the immigration office when your Thai wife is the one doing all the talking for you.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Khaeng Mak

[roo860]

Or perhaps there is a rational middle ground that is closest to being grounded in something resembling reality. Not scare mongering and also not walking around with rose colored glasses either. 
 
To add, yes my initial reaction is that this recent set of new orders is indeed going to result in a significant number of legitimate expats leaving Thailand. I don't see that as scare mongering. I see that as seeing things clearly. 

Surely by abiding by the rules you are classed as legitimate, if you don't, then you're not.

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[wgdanson]

6 minutes ago, Khaeng Mak said:

There we have it.

 

That's why you have never received a mobile number from an IO.

 

Interesting that you are posting like a boss on this issue and liking all the other poisonous and troll posts on this thread and you can't even speak Thai.

 

How the hell would you know what is going on at the immigration office when your Thai wife is the one doing all the talking for you.

I have never had the IOs phone number because I never asked or needed it.

 

I am not a boss or expert on his issue, but using my intelligence and experience, I try to help other members.

I am surprised you refer to the poisonous and troll posts when you've only been a member since last Wednesday.

 

And finally, I am NOT married, and usually go to the Immigration Office alone, and have a very good relationship with all the staff there.

[wgdanson]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Before this, I saw my "purpose" here as spending money. Now we're being strongly incentivized to spend less money! Crazy stuff. 

I do not understand you. You can put as much money over 65k into a Thai bank account from your overseas account for 12 months, and spend every single satang if you want to.

[roo860]

I can't disagree with that.

But objectively these changes are really quite unfriendly to retired expats. 

The exsisting rules were never going to last forever, these new rules could possibly be for new applications, nobody knows, so it's not worth causing yourself to have a heart attack.

 

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[Isaanben]

On 2/3/2019 at 3:58 PM, skatewash said:

The problem is no one knows the answer to your question.  At this point, all they can do is offer educated guesses.

 

In your situation, you can comply with the strictest interpretation of the new lump-sum method and bring back your money into Thailand so that you have 800,000 balance for 2 months before your application and 3 months after your application and always maintain at least 400,000 in the account during the remainder of the year.  That appears to be the safest course of action, but who knows?  If tomorrow it's announced that the new rules don't apply to people with existing extensions of stay but only for new extensions of stay then you would say that you received terrible advice.

Most likely, the new lump-sum rules will be applied retrospectively, that is, when you go to get your next extension of stay they will look at a year's worth of bank statement for your account and see whether you complied with all the rules.  If you didn't probably you don't get a new extension.  Maybe you even get some sort of fine.  But in my humble opinion it is very unlikely that you would be charged with overstay, rounded up by the police, and carted off to the IDF for violating the new rules.  That's kind of silly and that may be what people are reacting to.

 

Another thing you might want to consider is that do nothing for the time being.  Assume you are OK, listen to any news about how the new rules are being enforced and if it turns out that you guessed wrong and you probably won't get a new extension of stay, then go back to your home country and apply for a NON-IMM O-A long stay visa (which has the advantage of using your financial resources in your home country to support your application).  Then come back to Thailand and get up to 2 years of stay if you plan carefully.

 

No one can tell you what to do.  No one really knows how all this will play out.  It's OK to look at the worst case scenario, but it probably doesn't get worse than simply not getting your next extension, and doesn't include being rounded up and shot.

 

Lots of criticism for how this whole thing has been handled but you have to deal with the world as it exists not how it should be.

 

[Jingthing]

The exsisting rules were never going to last forever, these new rules could possibly be for new applications, nobody knows, so it's not worth causing yourself to have a heart attack.  
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They are not.

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[roo860]

And how do you know that?

Seems like a few IO don't know what's going on.

 

They are not.  

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[Jingthing]

And how do you know that?

 
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Because the order is clear on that.

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[roo860]

Ah well, let them get on with it, I certainly won't be losing any sleep over it.

Because the order is clear on that.

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[Jingthing]

Let me clarify.

The order has been issued.
Reading the order as it does not mention that it is retroactive, it's fair to assume the new rules won't apply to current extensions obtained before the EFFECTIVE date of the beginning of the new order. 
Which is not yet.

So offices saying nothing has changed on that, they are correct. For right now.

I think people have incorrectly read the Key Visa communication as meaning the new very onerous rules only apply to people NEW in the system, getting their FIRST extension.

The police order says nothing about that.

It would be true based on how the police order reads that the new seasoning rules apply to NEW extensions after the beginning of the effective date, in March.

But guess what? People living here get "new" extensions every year.

So it would be true based on the order that it only applies to "new" extensions after the effective date. But that's a totally different thing than saying it only applies to people getting their FIRST extension. 

[Khaeng Mak]

2 hours ago, wgdanson said:

I have never had the IOs phone number because I never asked or needed it.

 

I am not a boss or expert on his issue, but using my intelligence and experience, I try to help other members.

I am surprised you refer to the poisonous and troll posts when you've only been a member since last Wednesday.

 

And finally, I am NOT married, and usually go to the Immigration Office alone, and have a very good relationship with all the staff there.

How do you know you have a "very good relationship" with all the staff there if you don't speak Thai?

Because they smile at you?

Good Lord.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Khaeng Mak

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, wgdanson said:

I am surprised you refer to the poisonous and troll posts when you've only been a member since last Wednesday.

Only a member from last Wednesday in this life.

We're in Thailand, they have reincarnation.

[BritManToo]

21 minutes ago, Khaeng Mak said:

How do you know you have a "very good relationship" with all the staff there if you don't speak Thai?

I have the same relationship, I don't go to see them, and they don't come to see me.

You can't get a better relationship with the police than that! (in any country)

Edited February 4, 2019 by BritManToo

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, wgdanson said:

I do not understand you. You can put as much money over 65k into a Thai bank account from your overseas account for 12 months, and spend every single satang if you want to.

 

I guessing, the notion is that when someone is required to keep 400K in a Thai bank account yearround vs only having to keep 800K in the bank for several months, they're likely going to be more cautious / restrained with their spending to ensure they don't fall below the 400K amount any time during the year.

 

That aspect of the new rules does strike me as a disincentive to spend here.

 

 

[singburisam]

I just heard of the new rules.  Let me summarize my understanding; tell me if I'm wrong.

 

(A) In October I renewed my 12-month retirement extension with ฿800,000 in a Bangkok Bank account. The new rules will not apply to me until next October.

 

(B) With the old rules I needed the ฿800,000 in bank for two or three months*; I could have zero for the remaining 9 or 10 months.  In future I will need ฿800,000 for a total of five months; ฿400,000 for the remaining seven months.  (* Singburi Immigration: "2 months is enough but 3 months is better." [insert sarcastic emoticon].)

(C) I receive about ฿50,000 monthly from U.S. SocSec.  Although less than ฿65,000, this could be used in the "combination" method.  In that case, by my arithmetic, I would need only ฿185,000 in the bank for the five months.  ((800000/65)*(65-50)).

(C1) Is that correct?

(C2) what would I need in the bank for the other seven months?  Half of ฿185,000 ?

(C3) Has anyone here used the combination method?  Are the officers in small immigration offices adept at any necessary arithmetic?

(C4) Would I need evidence  from the U.S. government regarding these ฿50,000 monthly payments?  If not, could I get the additional ฿15,000 from another source, e.g. payments from my wife?

(C5) Must any payments be MONTHLY?  I could wire the extra funds from a foreign account, but to do this monthly the transfer fees might exceed $300 per year.

(D) I have two Thai children who live in Thailand; one adult, the other nearly adult.  Would this allow me some alternate visa that would obviate part of this rigmarole?

 

I have other income and other income sources; my question is not about my financial situation.  I have a wife but do not plan to register the marriage; my question is not about marriage visa.

[Roy Baht]

On 2/2/2019 at 8:15 PM, rott said:

On the plus side it has been an interesting few days (except for the unlucky ones who will be badly affected) and a change from Trump and Brexit.

No this IS Brexit. The British are exiting Thailand

[Roy Baht]

On 2/3/2019 at 3:26 PM, Khaeng Mak said:

That wont help me. I have just done me extension last week and then transferred my money back offshore. I want to know if I have to transfer 400K back in before March 1 to avoid being on overstay. Which would amount to more than 6 months overstay by my next extension, with possible arrest, deportation and banned from visiting my family for 5 years as a consequence.

 

I need clarity right now.

I think you're jumping the gun assuming that 6 months without 400k baht means you've overstayed. Based on the info we have so far, it just seems to mean no extension, which is bad but not as bad as a 5 year ban. You should be able to apply for a new visa and start over.