Declaring pension 'income' and creating a tax liability..

[LivinLOS]

2 hours ago, topt said:

Did you bother to follow the link to the State pension above? If you did you would have seen the following -

Some people will not pay tax on their state pension as if it is their only source of income it will fall below the Personal Allowance hence the citation you quote.

 

 

Quote

 

Overseas residents

You may be taxed on your State Pension by the UK and the country where you live. If you pay tax twice, you can usually claim tax relief to get all or some of it back.

If the country you live in has a ‘double taxation agreement’ with the UK, you’ll only pay tax on your pension once. This may be to the UK or the country where you live, depending on that country’s tax agreement.

 

But whats thats saying it you claim it back... From the country you are not resident in.. 

 

Exactly what I am saying.. 

 

And what I am saying about personal allowances before is again, relavant if you live in the UK.. If you are resident here it is Thailands personal allowance thats relevant. 

 

And really who out of the current retirees has a Thai tax number is filing Thai tax returns etc.. If they decide to enforce the law, it will be required. It is in so many other countries, why wouldnt they here. 

[topt]

11 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

But whats thats saying it you claim it back... From the country you are not resident in.. 

 

Exactly what I am saying.. 

 

And what I am saying about personal allowances before is again, relavant if you live in the UK.. If you are resident here it is Thailands personal allowance thats relevant. 

 

And really who out of the current retirees has a Thai tax number is filing Thai tax returns etc.. If they decide to enforce the law, it will be required. It is in so many other countries, why wouldnt they here. 

I think I am about to give up. We seem to be going round in circles.

 

As already pointed out in this thread the DTA between UK and Thailand does not include personal and state pension payments - or do you not accept that either? 

The discussion was about the UK taxing pensions which you could not seem to agree with for some reason......

 

Your latter point above is potentially the biggest issue. 

[Date Masamune]

But whats thats saying it you claim it back... From the country you are not resident in.. 

 
Exactly what I am saying.. 
 
And what I am saying about personal allowances before is again, relavant if you live in the UK.. If you are resident here it is Thailands personal allowance thats relevant. 
 
And really who out of the current retirees has a Thai tax number is filing Thai tax returns etc.. If they decide to enforce the law, it will be required. It is in so many other countries, why wouldnt they here. 

Why? The current measures to squeeze out low income Farangs, requirements for visas and maybe insurance, seem to be working. Rich foreigners will still be tolerated as they are worldwide.

[jojothai]

On 2/8/2019 at 11:12 AM, david555 said:

Just try to find Thailand on this updated 2019 list …? http://www.oecd.org/tax/beps/CbC-MCAA-Signatories.pdf

 

http://www.oecd.org/about/membersandpartners/  country members..

http://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/common-reporting-standard/

As stated I was referring to the Global Forum on Transparency and Exchange of Information for Tax Purposes. I understand that this is the basis for making the changes leading to the exchange of information

You will find on the official OECD website that Thailand is a member.

http://www.oecd.org/tax/transparency/about-the-global-forum/members/

"The Global Forum now has 154 members on equal footing and is the premier international body for ensuring the implementation of the internationally agreed standards of transparency and exchange of information in the tax area."  Note the words "ensuring the implementation"

As I mentioned, just because Thailand has not yet fixed the target for exchange of information, it does not mean that it not on the agenda.

IMHO people need to start thinking about what they declare when the information is requested.

 

[Sheryl]

Given that Thailand doesn't tax foreign income so long as it isn't remitted in the year earned, how could foreign pensions and equivalents be taxed? They are nto earned in the year they are received but rather over a long period of years prior.

 

 

[LivinLOS]

16 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Given that Thailand doesn't tax foreign income so long as it isn't remitted in the year earned, how could foreign pensions and equivalents be taxed? They are nto earned in the year they are received but rather over a long period of years prior.

 

 

Thats not the definition of payment date.. deffered taxation is still taxed at time of payment. 

 

Try having a large private pension.. and continue to be paid 100k a year after you 'retire' and see if its tax fee !! 

[Sheryl]

 

Thats not the definition of payment date.. deffered taxation is still taxed at time of payment. 

 

Try having a large private pension.. and continue to be paid 100k a year after you 'retire' and see if its tax fee !! 

Not sure I follow you.

 

Are you saying the Thai tax law is that income from abroad is taxable if it is brought into the country in the same year it was paid as opposed to earned?

 

In the case of a pension or similar that is funded out of payroll contributions, wouldn't all but the interest have been paid in a much earlier year and set aside?

 

In many annuities/income from 401ks as the money was paid in an earlier year and voluntarily set aside, only the interest portion being new. 

 

???

 

 

 

[LivinLOS]

Pensions are different the world over.. As are the DTA agreements covering being paid a pensions sourced in one country, while residing in another. Also differences between state pensions and private pensions (or in the case of informal investments, returns etc etc).

 

Pensions are not  simply 'tax free' depending on the structure of the pension and the country its paid out from it may be tax deferred, under a tax bracket in that country (but not always in the country then residing in) tax due etc etc.. 

 

Thailand taxes pensions paid (into Thailand) in the year they are received. 

 

 

Years back I used to be involved with retailing and storing gold bullion as a SIPP pension option.. After the allowances (IIRC 25%) the remaining income is taxed as income.. 

Edited February 13, 2019 by LivinLOS

[gavlar]

On 2/7/2019 at 1:38 PM, LivinLOS said:

Even if you become non resident of the source country ?? 

 

Why is that ?? 

They introduced law to basically stop expats gaining from tax free (40%) investment but not getting taxed on removal. 

[gavlar]

My meagre understanding of the potential large issue for expats going down the pension income route for extensions, using pensions paid direct from the UK to prove their 40k/60k income, is that the money is not seasoned for more than a year. Therefore it may become liable for Thai tax and because there is no double taxation treaty between UK and Thailand then you couldn't claim it back.

[Sheryl]

Pensions are different the world over.. As are the DTA agreements covering being paid a pensions sourced in one country, while residing in another. Also differences between state pensions and private pensions (or in the case of informal investments, returns etc etc).
 
Pensions are not  simply 'tax free' depending on the structure of the pension and the country its paid out from it may be tax deferred, under a tax bracket in that country (but not always in the country then residing in) tax due etc etc.. 
 
Thailand taxes pensions paid (into Thailand) in the year they are received. 
 
 
Years back I used to be involved with retailing and storing gold bullion as a SIPP pension option.. After the allowances (IIRC 25%) the remaining income is taxed as income.. 

It is also possible to have post-tax savings placed in an annuity that then pays a monthly income. Onlt a tiny portion of this-- the interest portion-- is taxable. The rest was already taxed, often years ago.


Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[topt]

7 hours ago, gavlar said:

is that the money is not seasoned for more than a year.

To be specific here it is not the length of time but that it happens in different calendar years.

 

Eg you can receive in December and transfer to Thailand the following month (January) and that fulfills the requirements (currently) to not be taxed.

 

Otherwise your "meagre" understanding sounds right to me 

[gavlar]

I started "meagre" ...because these things are never clear cut...you make the point for me clearly and it looks like I may be 11/12 correct..

December pension paid in January would not count for tax purposes.

However if some expats from the UK were relying purely on their pension for extensions then January to November payments would in theory be taxable.