Consequences of illegally using 800K for retirement extension after March 1, 2019

[rott]

20 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Yes, I would suggest they will want to see the 3 months/7 months/2 months at 800/400/800 kbaht. Next January.. be ready.

I am sure ubonjoe said the new requirements only kick in for extensions issued after 01/03.

 

Does not mean that every IO will play nicely though.

[CMNightRider]

On 2/8/2019 at 7:17 AM, bkkcanuck8 said:

IMHO and not knowing the ins and outs of Thai law on fraud... I would not assume that it is not covered under fraud (criminal; not an immigration/administration offense).  The standard process is to transfer in to an account (never under your control) have a statement printed off on official bank documentation, then the money removed after.  It can be considered a purposeful misrepresentation -- aka fraud.

I like the part "to transfer in to an account (never under your control).  This is great money management advise.  Are you a Thai banker or immigration officer? 

[CMNightRider]

On 2/8/2019 at 6:02 PM, Gecko123 said:

Scrap the financial requirements for retirees entirely, allow retirees to buy into the government health care program, enforce homeless and vagrancy statutes, and get out of the business of trying to control people's finances. Thailand isn't going to be inundated with poverty stricken retirees. It'll be like legalizing marijuana, which studies have shown only resulted in a 1.2% increase in usage post legalization.

After reading your suggestion, I'm inclined to believe you may be in that 1.2% of users.

[jonwilly]

 

"Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat."

 

Some years back the Visa Agent I used explained that it takes time for the Thai Immigration Police to catch onto the ways in which Frangs find ways around the Legal Rules and regulations.

They then crack down and we all suffer.

 

john

[EricTh]

When you retire next year, it won't be granted because they look back at  your past 12 months records.

 

I can imagine the mass exodus due to this new law especially for those who declared false affidavits or borrowed from agents.

[EricTh]

On 2/9/2019 at 7:15 PM, ivor bigun said:

How many of us can actually get health insurance? Very few i reckon.

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Even if they do grant you health insurance, the premium will be very expensive because of the higher risk factor for retirees

Edited February 22, 2019 by EricTh

[Olmate]

1 minute ago, EricTh said:

When you retire next year, it won't be granted because they look back at  your past 12 months records.

 

I can imagine the mass exodus due to this new law especially for those who declared false affidavits or borrowed from agents.

 

Income affadavits  for income method don’t require seasoning and agents are able to waive seasoning. Please read up!

[Olmate]

1 minute ago, EricTh said:

Even if they do grant you health insurance, the premium will be very expensive because of the higher risk factor for retirees

What insurance, no new requirements at this stage

[EricTh]

10 minutes ago, jonwilly said:

 

 

Some years back the Visa Agent I used explained that it takes time for the Thai Immigration Police to catch onto the ways in which Frangs find ways around the Legal Rules and regulations.

They then crack down and we all suffer.

 

john

 

Is there a transaction code that says the money actually came from outside Thailand?

[Olmate]

11 minutes ago, jonwilly said:

 

"Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat."

 

Some years back the Visa Agent I used explained that it takes time for the Thai Immigration Police to catch onto the ways in which Frangs find ways around the Legal Rules and regulations.

They then crack down and we all suffer.

 

john

Wonder why it takes so long!

[Olmate]

2 minutes ago, EricTh said:

 

Is there a transaction code that says the money actually came from outside Thailand?

Yes IFT

[onera1961]

42 minutes ago, jonwilly said:

Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore. 

I am on an O-A visa. So my opinions are not biased for my advantage. I have started to form this new perspective recently. Let me tell you why 800K is better than any other options based on information I have gathered so far. 

Option 1. O-A: They may impose health insurance requirement in the future. They may increase the base amount to 1.2 or 1.5 million. In all cases O-A is a looser. 
 

Option 1. 65K/Month. Baht is getting stronger due to massive inflow of FDI, Chinese/Indian tourists, and in-flow of foreign currencies into Thai stick and bond market. By 2022, if Baht becomes 25BHT/USD, one has to import more dollar every month. 

 

Option 3. You bring 800K and put it in a fixed account for 1.5%. Currency conversion is over and no future effect due to rate fluctuation. Baht is not going to become weaker. If people are waiting for weaker Baht, they are dreaming. There is no reason for baht to become weaker. 

[BertM]

On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 8:44 AM, mlmcleod said:

Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat.

Because those that use the 800k have the money to be able to do it and they don't have to pay the monthly transfer fees which can be very costly. I transferred $50,000 USD when the rate was 33.53 THB and have been using it and also set aside 800k for my extension. The rate today at Kasikorn Bank is 30.87 THB, so I'm glad I had the money and glad I moved it when I did.

Edited February 22, 2019 by BertM

[mogandave]

I don't recall seeing agents out in the open at CW, as one will see in smaller offices - but I only went there a couple times.  Do not be fooled, however - even when CW always did everything by the published rules for in-person applicants (to their credit), there was always an agent-option running in parallel. 
 
The unofficial "extra seasoning" on marriage-based extensions, and demand for landlord-docs some applicants may be unable to obtain, indicate that CW's "by the book for honest applicants" policy is coming to an end. 
 
Combined with the new seasoning rules - which make no sense at all to prevent the agent/io system, but could multiply agent/io profits - it appears that corruption is kicking into high-gear under new leadership.  It's not surprising the usual reeking cloud of fake-pr-spin about "corruption" and "fakers" is being directed by the magician's other hand, as the corrupt use the misdirection to increase their income-streams.

Yet all you have to do to prevent corruption is abide the law.

[BertM]

4 hours ago, jonwilly said:

 

"Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat."

john

John,

Just asking... what do you spend and live off of if you are sending back the 65k you sent over? And, doesn't it cost a lot for the transfer fees & conversion costs to do that each month? Or, are you suggesting you send over maybe 95k, then keep 30k to spend and then send back 65k to repeat? Just trying to understand your thinking and how that is way easier than just keeping 800k in the bank here. Kindly...

Edited February 22, 2019 by BertM

[KhunFred]

Does this affect the use of visa services? I'd hate to move, but if they give me no choice.......

[BertM]

12 minutes ago, KhunFred said:

Does this affect the use of visa services? I'd hate to move, but if they give me no choice.......

Visa services still operating.

Edited February 22, 2019 by BertM

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, mogandave said:

Yet all you have to do to prevent corruption is abide the law.

... and, do all the other things the IO demands, which are not in the law or published rules, some of which may be impossible, and are designed by immigration to encourage/force agent-use - having No Other Logical/Useful Purpose.

Edited February 23, 2019 by JackThompson

[smedly]

13 hours ago, Olmate said:

 

Income affadavits  for income method don’t require seasoning and agents are able to waive seasoning. Please read up!

I am sure that any agent you use this year will be able to operate as normal and bribe an IO to ignore the seasoning rules - why not, it is money in their pocket.

 

"But" you need to be very sure that when you try to renew your extension next year that the agent will still be able to bribe an IO to ignore the fact that "not only" did you not comply with the rules previously but failed to comply with the new rules this 12 months (this year) because it will be too late then to do anything about it,  it is not clear yet what action they will take but I suspect a ban from obtaining extensions would seem logical, 1-5 years is possible.

 

People that currently use agents need to think very carefully about the implications next year when they check for compliance to the new rules

[ubonjoe]

4 hours ago, JackThompson said:

... and, do all the other things the IO demands, which are not in the law or published rules, some of which may be impossible, and are designed by immigration to encourage/force agent-use - having No Other Logical/Useful Purpose.

I have only heard of that happening at one office. In the other 3 large tourist areas where agents are readily available I have not heard of it happening like that.

Outside those 4 areas there are very few agents available. Certainly none here in Ubon.

[Olmate]

10 minutes ago, smedly said:

I am sure that any agent you use this year will be able to operate as normal and bribe an IO to ignore the seasoning rules - why not, it is money in their pocket.

 

"But" you need to be very sure that when you try to renew your extension next year that the agent will still be able to bribe an IO to ignore the fact that "not only" did you not comply with the rules previously but failed to comply with the new rules this 12 months (this year) because it will be too late then to do anything about it,  it is not clear yet what action they will take but I suspect a ban from obtaining extensions would seem logical, 1-5 years is possible.

 

People that currently use agents need to think very carefully about the implications next year when they check for compliance to the new rules

Would next years agent supported extension receive extra scrutiny when still using  waived seasoning and senior officer tea money,I can’t see it?

[smedly]

4 minutes ago, Olmate said:

Would next years agent supported extension receive extra scrutiny when still using  waived seasoning and senior officer tea money,I can’t see it?

who knows but the point I am making is that it is not this years extension that is the problem - it is the following year when the new rules are fully in play, it will be too late then when you cannot show 800k balance for 3 months after your last extension and a minimum balance of 400k for the previous 12 months - what then

 

Like I said an agent will gladly take your money now - why not, no risk to them 

[Olmate]

7 minutes ago, smedly said:

who knows but the point I am making is that it is not this years extension that is the problem - it is the following year when the new rules are fully in play, it will be too late then when you cannot show 800k balance for 3 months after your last extension and a minimum balance of 400k for the previous 12 months - what then

 

Like I said an agent will gladly take your money now - why not, no risk to them 

Yes I got what your point was and no one can sure. It would be a major shakeup tho ,not convinced the will is there!

 

[JackThompson]

49 minutes ago, smedly said:

who knows but the point I am making is that it is not this years extension that is the problem - it is the following year when the new rules are fully in play, it will be too late then when you cannot show 800k balance for 3 months after your last extension and a minimum balance of 400k for the previous 12 months - what then

 

Like I said an agent will gladly take your money now - why not, no risk to them 

In theory, this would not apply to applications submitted before March 2019 - or at least to those where the next permitted-stay begins before March 2019.  But you have a valid point, in that IOs may attempt to retroactively enforce this on pre-March 2019 extensions next year, to force more agent-business on next-year's applications. 

 

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

I have only heard of that happening at one office. In the other 3 large tourist areas where agents are readily available I have not heard of it happening like that.

Outside those 4 areas there are very few agents available. Certainly none here in Ubon.

I have seen reports of unpublished-requirements from many areas - Phuket among them, as one of the most difficult offices.  Even taking the relatively easy changing-target - pictures - there is no published standard to which applicants can reliably comply.

 

The lack of agents in many areas is one reason so many do their extensions via Pattaya-agents - even when they don't live there.  I considered using them this year, but did not do it (though easier/cheaper than a Non-O-ME + border-runs), because I worry that some agents could be pawn-sacrificed for a media-story in this climate, and that their 90-day reporting (they offer "mail in service") would be false/illegal.

[ubonjoe]

21 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The lack of agents in many areas is one reason so many do their extensions via Pattaya-agents - even when they don't live there. 

I think the only people doing that are people that cannot meet the money in the bank requirement.

Most agents that advertise that they can be done by mail advertise for the 800k baht in the bank deal for retirement.

For an extension of stay based upon marriage I would say the mailed in paperwork thing would probably be impossible.

[tgeezer]

The new rules ostensibly claim to be fighting corruption of Immigration Officers. Taking them at face value perhaps the new figures could be aimed at making agents into money lenders and removing Immigration officers from any involvement.


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[Olmate]

18 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

The new rules ostensibly claim to be fighting corruption of Immigration Officers. Taking them at face value perhaps the new figures could be aimed at making agents into money lenders and removing Immigration officers from any involvement.


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If they loan for 5/6 months it’s seemingly quite legal,therefore immigration won’t get their sling, can,t think that would be encouraged, do you?

[AAArdvark]

15 hours ago, jonwilly said:

 

"Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat."

 

Some years back the Visa Agent I used explained that it takes time for the Thai Immigration Police to catch onto the ways in which Frangs find ways around the Legal Rules and regulations.

They then crack down and we all suffer.  

 

john

"Easier" may not be the right question.  There are quite a few people who have ฿800K to put in a Thai bank.  For these people that would be far easier than moving ฿65K back and forth.  The problem is there are probably an equal amount of people who cannot afford to deposit ฿65K each month who used to get by with unverified embassy letters.

[Sheryl]

The new rules ostensibly claim to be fighting corruption of Immigration Officers. Taking them at face value perhaps the new figures could be aimed at making agents into money lenders and removing Immigration officers from any involvement.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Hard to see how it would do that. But then, we don't really know how the agent scam works other than that they put 800k into an account and then remove it. How the seasoning requirement gets waived, and what shows in the Imm file for that person, we don't know. Still it is hard to inagine that they can get around a 3 month seasoning requirenent but not a 5 month one.

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[jonwilly]

Reply to BertM.

What I said was Quote

"Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat."

 

Some years back the Visa Agent I used explained that it takes time for the Thai Immigration Police to catch onto the ways in which Frangs find ways around the Legal Rules and regulations.

They then crack down and we all suffer.'

 

I have B800,000 in Bank for my Retirement Visa and have done so since I turned 55.

Under old rules I was free to spend all of my B800K on day my visa was issued, provided I had the B800K in bank 3 months before my next visa was due. No problem for me.

However unless I have misread the "New Rules, I will now have to have B800K in for 2 months before and then 3 months after issue on new visa and then must keep B400K in bank all year.

This is because the nameless, faceless ones had found way to cheat the requirements laid down in Thai Law.

As I said in my original post the Visa agent I use, who has a reputation in my town of being 100% legal and does not fiddle by Bribing Police officers as other visa agents are said to do.

Thai Immigration Police may well be slow on the uptake and when matters catch up with them We All Suffer.

Perhaps I have read matters wrong but I understand that your Retirement Money must come from overseas.

Folk are already explaining their way that they will keep a sum in play by moving  out then in again, what they will live on is beyond me.

I will suggest that the Immigration Police are aware of this board and will be reading and will be well prepared for folk who in their opinion are not Playing the Game.

 

john

Just as an aside in one of the 2 restaurants I use frequently in my home town. The owner estimates from what he Knows of his customers that about 1/3 will not be able to meet the new requirements.

I was present when one guy was explaining how he would get around the 'New' rules.