And another issue at airport : w re-entry retirement legit visa

[BritManToo]

5 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

She was probably just hoping for some cash to ease the OP's passage. I

 .... or a date with the OP.

[connda]

23 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

That is correct. Reentry permit number required. 

Just to add, the op was harshly treated it would seem. I fly every couple weeks out of Thailand. In the main to Vietnam. Never had an issue. Problems seem so random. As for many complaints in threads about Thai passport control, try getting a half friendly look from io in countries like Vietnam. Good luck with that

The best thing to do with an IO like that is to simply smile and nod and limit your interaction.  If you are legally in Thailand and your paperwork is correct and valid, an individual IO can huff and puff all they want.  Obviously she was having a bad day and decided to target you to beat on.  If all your paperwork is in order there is no legal reason for them to demand additional documentation, such a a bankbook, that is only required during the visa extension application nor is there a legal reason to deny you entry. 

[Lovethailandelite]

6 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

 No reports yet of the Bangkok airports or even Poipet asking for the money from non-Tourists.  I use a Non-O-ME, but I still have my travelers checks with - just in case.

The OP was in a Bangkok airport, Don Muang. He wasn't a tourist. He had a re-entry permit for his extension. He was asked to show his bank book. If he never had his bank book, IMO, the next request would of been to show the cash. No cash.....fill in the blanks

[connda]

22 hours ago, SammyT said:

1) I know how much IO's earn, and it isn't much for the volume of work they are required to do. Ever seen the lines at BKK airport?

That's not an excuse for becoming a jerk.  If the stress is that awful that an IO feels their only recourse is to become a mean, nasty, and abusive person who drops all pretenses of literally hating foreigners - then that person should reconsider their career choices.  Why work a job that destroys your humanity, especially if it pays jack-squat.

[Lovethailandelite]

3 minutes ago, connda said:

The best thing to do with an IO like that is to simply smile and nod and limit your interaction.  If you are legally in Thailand and your paperwork is correct and valid, an individual IO can huff and puff all they want.  Obviously she was having a bad day and decided to target you to beat on.  If all your paperwork is in order there is no legal reason for them to demand additional documentation, such a a bankbook, that is only required during the visa extension application nor is there a legal reason to deny you entry. 

They are at liberty to ask at anytime for evidence of a means to support yourself. The Legal requirement is all quite clearly laid out in the Immigration act along with a whole host of other available reasons to deny entry......To any Non Thai.

[BaiLao]

31 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

True enough, but in order to game the financial requirements, most (if not all) who did so needed the help of a Thai visa agent and a Thai immigration officer who would turn a blind eye to the fraud. Immigration's "solution" is highly punitive towards the entire expat retiree community (most of whom complied with these requirements), while completely ignoring the role the corrupt visa agent and immigration officer played in the fraud. Because of this, the new seasoning and verification requirements appear to be easily worked around, for the right price, of course.

 

The same is true regarding the TM-30 requirement. This law requires housemasters (primarily Thais) to report that a foreigner resides at a residence they own. While the Thai can be fined for failing to do so, it is the foreigner who is being forced to help enforce this law, because immigration is fining expats and refusing visas to expats when the housemaster doesn't comply. The requirement that the housemaster has to re-report the residence of a foreigner after every trip abroad (and in some jurisdictions after overnight trips outside of your home province) despite the fact that foreigners have to report their address every 90 days, is laughably inefficient from an administrative standpoint, not to mention being a callous and dehumanizing requirement for expats.

 

Immigration's administrative response to both of these problems exposes: (1) a tendency to blame foreigner for problems, and (2) a reluctance to confront and hold other Thai people accountable for their failure to follow the law.  Instead, they prefer to impose draconian and punitive quick fix solutions rather than looking for root causes and long term solutions, while conveniently avoiding the need to confront and hold Thais accountable for their failure to follow the law.

"The same is true regarding the TM-30 requirement. This law requires housemasters (primarily Thais) to report that a foreigner resides at a residence they own. While the Thai can be fined for failing to do so..."

They (i.e. immigration police) visited the place I'm staying at yesterday afternoon. Not for the first time, either. A private residence. Random timing. No warning. Five of them, in full uniform and shiny combat boots. Unmarked vehicle. Ostensibly looking for overstays. Many questions. Mercifully my visa is valid. Summary: situation resolved.  However, whilst I would agree that all over the world it's a case of 'On goes the uniform, off go the manners" I do observe that the situation in Thailand has deteriorated recently. By recently I'm referring to the last 12-24months. By deterioration I mean the ambient demeanor of officials. I suspect that they're all under hierarchical pressure. Doubtless other posters will have their viewpoints, but have a valid visa and inform immigration offices of your current address, within 24 hours of arrival. At least then your legal status - such as it is in a fluid environment - is valid, and any haranguing by an overzealous official at an airport or your doorstep can be met with calm certainty of your legitimate status. 

[geriatrickid]

23 hours ago, yuiop said:

I agree with you, it seems farang are not welcome anymore by thai immigration/government.

Not exactly. The foreigners who play the system and cheat are not welcome.

I don't doubt that the  IO may  have been abrupt or appeared rude. It has been unusual for Thailand, but  many have taken courses on how to question people and there is indeed a crackdown on bogus visa holders. 

 

[from the home of CC]

37 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

True enough, but in order to game the financial requirements, most (if not all) who did so needed the help of a Thai visa agent and a Thai immigration officer who would turn a blind eye to the fraud. Immigration's "solution" is highly punitive towards the entire expat retiree community (most of whom complied with these requirements), while completely ignoring the role the corrupt visa agent and immigration officer played in the fraud. Because of this, the new seasoning and verification requirements appear to be easily worked around, for the right price, of course.

 

The same is true regarding the TM-30 requirement. This law requires housemasters (primarily Thais) to report that a foreigner resides at a residence they own. While the Thai can be fined for failing to do so, it is the foreigner who is being forced to help enforce this law, because immigration is fining expats and refusing visas to expats when the housemaster doesn't comply. The requirement that the housemaster has to re-report the residence of a foreigner after every trip abroad (and in some jurisdictions after overnight trips outside of your home province) despite the fact that foreigners have to report their address every 90 days, is laughably inefficient from an administrative standpoint, not to mention being a callous and dehumanizing requirement for expats.

 

Immigration's administrative response to both of these problems exposes: (1) a tendency to blame foreigner for problems, and (2) a reluctance to confront and hold other Thai people accountable for their failure to follow the law.  Instead, they prefer to impose draconian and punitive quick fix solutions rather than looking for root causes and long term solutions, while conveniently avoiding the need to confront and hold Thais accountable for their failure to follow the law.

Immigration's "solution" is highly punitive towards the entire expat retiree community

 

- imo I don't feel that the Thais are setting out to 'punish' anyone. I think that this is just some committees preliminary solutions to a long term problem and I don't feel it's personal in the least. I believe if they wanted to punish the expat community everyone would be feeling a lot more pain than these new measures.

 

while completely ignoring the role the corrupt visa agent and immigration officer played in the fraud.

 

  That isn't the case with the airport IO's just recently and imo there will be eyes on provincial offices with the intention of ensuring the changes just brought forth are doing their intended job (which would be a good reason to play on the up and up from now on).

 

When looking at the main culprits here reminds me of an argument that Mexico has. They say there would be no cartels if there wasn't 30 million hard drug users in America while America says if you didn't tempt us with your products we wouldn't use them.

 

 

 

[Fred white]

On 3/5/2019 at 10:48 AM, simon43 said:

 

 

 

[sarcasm]

Haven't you heard?  There is a new rule for those on 'retirement' visas.  You are only allowed to visit Pattaya two times each year.........

 

Elite visa like me get unlimited visits to Pattaya.. ????????????

[/sarcasm]

If you're just visiting how do they know. I've been too many places here (including Pattaya 5 times last year) I don't check in with imagration every where I go.

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, Fred white said:

If you're just visiting how do they know. I've been too many places here (including Pattaya 5 times last year) I don't check in with imagration every where I go.

The hotels do address reports on foreigners (TM30s?) to immigration, which probably show up on the IOs screen.

Edited March 6, 2019 by BritManToo

[JackThompson]

29 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

Not exactly. The foreigners who play the system and cheat are not welcome.

On the contrary - they get the red-carpet.  It is honest folks who are targeted. 

 

29 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

I don't doubt that the  IO may  have been abrupt or appeared rude. It has been unusual for Thailand, but  many have taken courses on how to question people and there is indeed a crackdown on bogus visa holders.

There is some scrapping between jurisdictions over who gets the foreigner's agent-money, which may have been the case here.  If they were really worried about "bogus" extensions, all they have to do is an internal-investigation, and leave us alone. 

 

They could start with examining the lifestyles of IOs - see if their incomes could possibly pay for how they live.  But I bet they don't want to go down that road, do they?  Better to pretend we foreigners invented their "agent-payoff or we put you through the wringer," scams.

[fondue zoo]

23 hours ago, SammyT said:

My advice? Don't dwell on it. There are unpleasant people in officialdom everywhere.  

The above is true.

I flew into Ho Chi Minh a few months back, one of the IO's was loudly berating everyone in queues because we were not perfectly lined up single file. It was mostly families with kids who were doing the "clumping" but it wasn't as if one queue was splitting into two at any point.

His black boots were very shiny so maybe he was more accustomed to army parade grounds and not the tired unwashed masses arriving at immigration.

I recall he had great Elvis style hair.

[JackThompson]

27 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

I believe if they wanted to punish the expat community everyone would be feeling a lot more pain than these new measures.

They are doing it incrementally.  If they booted us all at once, all the Thais affected would react in unison.  The better strategy is to boil the frog slowly - to wreck only a few thousand Thai's lives at a time, so they feel helpless and alone.

 

27 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

When looking at the main culprits here reminds me of an argument that Mexico has. They say there would be no cartels if there wasn't 30 million hard drug users in America while America says if you didn't tempt us with your products we wouldn't use them.

The problem with that argument, are the dozens of Western countries where corruption is rare in govt offices.  Yes, the rich can "buy policy" - but the little guy filing papers doesn't have "extra rules" invented to "encourage" bribery - and an agent-office operating right in the open - immediately next door (in Jomtien) where the rules can be completely bypassed for a fee.

Edited March 6, 2019 by JackThompson

[tgeezer]

You have to get away from this 'right of entry' no matter you have or not in your passport, a visa, re-entry permit, extension etc. The only 'right' here as in any country, is the 'right' an immigration officer has to deny entry under a whole list of options should you not be able to comply 'There and then'. I am not saying it's right or wrong BUT that is the reality of the situation.

I have not mentioned “right of entry”. If you have your permission to stay revoked you have a right of appeal. Being refused entry at the port is effectively revoking your permission to stay and at appeal you will probably have it restored.
What are the “list of options” at the disposal of an Immigration Officer at port of entry if your paperwork is in order? This is a genuine question, I wish to know these things.


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[JackThompson]

24 minutes ago, fondue zoo said:

The above is true.

I flew into Ho Chi Minh a few months back, one of the IO's was loudly berating everyone in queues because we were not perfectly lined up single file. It was mostly families with kids who were doing the "clumping" but it wasn't as if one queue was splitting into two at any point.

His black boots were very shiny so maybe he was more accustomed to army parade grounds and not the tired unwashed masses arriving at immigration.

I recall he had great Elvis style hair.

You should have seen the reaction when a group stepped over empty line-ropes in Poipet a couple years ago.  There was literally no one but a few people at the front, so some folks didn't "walk the snake" of ropes - stepping over them to get to where the line actually started.  The IO had a complete hissy fit, making them go back and walk through the whole thing.  It was the most juvenile and pathetic display I've ever seen from a power-tripping adult. 

 

The saddest part, I knew "how they can be" at that entry point - so when I arrived a few minutes before that group, I walked back and forth like an idiot through the empty rope-line, just to avoid giving some power-tripper with a 2-year-old emotional-maturity level an excuse to harass me.  When that group came in, all joyful and care-free in a "vacation" mood, and began stepping their way forward, I thought, "Oh God - they have no idea.  Your are supposed to conduct yourself here as if at a funeral, or it will * them off."

Edited March 6, 2019 by JackThompson

[tgeezer]

By law, anyone on any visa can be asked to show 20K Baht.  Reports to date indicate this has only happened, very briefly, at the Sadao entry-point, when they were b***-hurt about their "money in passport" scam being shut down.  No reports yet of the Bangkok airports or even Poipet asking for the money from non-Tourists.  I use a Non-O-ME, but I still have my travelers checks with - just in case.

That doesn’t make sense to me, can you show the law?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[JackThompson]

9 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

That doesn’t make sense to me, can you show the law?

It used to be in the immigration FAQ, but their page seems utterly broken, now - most of the links don't seem to work at all.

 

I do clearly recall the report at Sadao, though - guy with Thai Wife and Non-O visa came with his elderly parents (holding Tourist Visas).  Immigration would not let he or his parents in w/o showing 20K Baht each.  His Thai wife entered, went to an ATM, pulled the cash, came back, handed it out, and then they let the family enter Thailand. 

Typical "little big man" tactic - though not surprising, given those IOs probably took out big loans to buy those jobs, with the expectation of paying them back from the "money in passport" cash - only to have their scam get shut down by Bangkok.

Edited March 6, 2019 by JackThompson

[tgeezer]

I know what you mean, I used to refer to the FAQs but it is as if they don’t want us to know.
I found the section on cash or “pragan”, which I take to mean, cash or proof or underwritten or similar, in the Immigration Act but of course there is no sum mentioned. That is published in the Government Gazette first and subsequently becomes police orders I suppose. The stamps in your passport should fulfil the “pragan” requirement. Tourist visa are not at all the same as “permission to stay temporarily”. You did say any visa so I just wanted to be clear that you didn’t mean retirees.


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[chrisinth]

4 hours ago, Briggsy said:

What you say is correct.

 

Is it possible (I think it is) that there are internal conversations between Immigration Officers about how foreigners are skirting the system by using agents or untrue affidavits to gain extensions without the correct finances and those staff having the conversations are indignant at the cheating foreigners? And that indignation has spilled over into action and affected the questioning of the OP at Don Meuang? And the indignant IO would like to refuse entry to one of those cheating foreigners?

 

Of course, if my theory is true, the IO's are missing the point because the whole system exists and was designed to allow corrupt, undeclared payments to officials and was not designed by the "cheating foreigners".

I would think (at least like to think) that checking visas issued outside the kingdom and granting visa exemption stays is very different to questioning extended permissions of stay issued by immigration offices who have already scrutinized the documents of the individual granted that permission.

 

Even if internal conversations were taking place among the IOs, if these types of questions were asked of someone with a re-entry permit, ie questioning bank balances, and telling the individual that he was travelling too much inside Thailand, this would, in my case anyway, lead to an escalation involving officers much higher up the food chain.

 

Granted, I am on another reason for extension (not retirement) but none-the-less.........

[Briggsy]

1 minute ago, chrisinth said:

I would think (at least like to think) that checking visas issued outside the kingdom and granting visa exemption stays is very different to questioning extended permissions of stay issued by immigration offices who have already scrutinized the documents of the individual granted that permission.

 

Even if internal conversations were taking place among the IOs, if these types of questions were asked of someone with a re-entry permit, ie questioning bank balances, and telling the individual that he was travelling too much inside Thailand, this would, in my case anyway, lead to an escalation involving officers much higher up the food chain.

I don't disagree with anything you say.

 

My suspicion is that this IO, angered by tales of foreigners not following the rules, was both reacting and fishing. 'Reacting' by asking unnecessary and inappropriate questions and requests (the bankbook!!) and 'fishing' by hoping she could uncover something which she could escalate to her supervisor leading to a denial of entry.

 

The fact that the OP had switched offices/provinces for his extension was the trigger for her overly suspicious mind, suspicion of agent shopping, and I think this was expressed in poor English as "travel too much in Thailand".

[freedomnow]

OP, you should have said "What is your name and rank ?" and taken it.

I think BJ also responds to needless harrasment which it was for a retiree.

[Darkside Gray]

Must admit that Don Muang is now not a pleasant place to arrive, have been grilled there many times, the worst arrival airport in Thailand.

[Kerryd]

I have no problem at all if an IO wants to question my travel/activities/address(s). 
IT'S THEIR JOB. If they see something that doesn't look "right", they SHOULD be asking questions.

Far too many people are under the mistaken impression that the IOs are supposed to be "welcoming greeters" that should, upon seeing their mighty foreign passport, immediately drop to their knees and start kissing their feet.
If an IO asked me about being in too many places, I would simply explain that I love hoping on the bike and travelling to different historical parks and ancient temples, and then offer to show them pics of those places on my phone. I've got nothing to hide.
I would also make sure I was presenting myself in a proper fashion, including a polite manner. One doesn't have to kiss @ss to get things done, but being polite and respectful gets things done much easier than being an arrogant *** that thinks others should be grovelling at their feet.

IOs are a part of the Royal Thai Police and part of their job is too look for things (and people) that look suspicious. Maybe seeing someone with a Retirement extension that has numerous entries on the database is something they look for.

(Yes, I know about the regulation that states if you go somewhere for more than 24 hours, you are supposed to report yourself to the local police within 48 hours. I also know that some Immigration offices expect you to file a TM.30 every time you go somewhere (for more than a day) and then return home.)

And if someone was on a Retirement Extension and was changing their "home" address a couple or more times a year - that would probably raise suspicions as well.

 

Then again, I also know that the IOs in Thailand are NOT "native English speakers" and therefore may have some problems trying to ask questions and as a result they may want to ask something but are unsure of how to say it and end up asking something else instead. 

But I don't act like an arrogant prick when that happens. Nor do I look down my nose at them for not being able to eloquently vocabulate their queries in a comprehensive manner as befitting an Oxford professor.

I've travelled around the world (a few times) and have dealt with IOs in North America, Europe, Egypt, the UAE, Afghanistan, India, Cambodia, Laos and Thailand. I never seem to have any problems with them for some reason.

Meanwhile, other people seem to have problems every time they try to do anything, any where. 

 

Rather odd one would think, wouldn't they ?

 

[Joe Mcseismic]

One grouchy female immigration officer and that makes it obvious proof that Immigration as a whole, has it in for Westerners??

Edited March 6, 2019 by Joe Mcseismic

[JackThompson]

27 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

One grouchy female immigration officer and that makes it obvious proof that Immigration as a whole, has it in for Westerners??

Only if you dismiss all the other reports. 

 

While a smile and pleasant demeanor may be too much to expect (though somehow the Philippines manage it), a "civil" tone to a "civil" behaving visitor is not an unreasonable expectation. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by JackThompson

[Joe Mcseismic]

9 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Only if you dismiss all the other reports. 

 

While a smile and pleasant demeanor may be too much to expect (though somehow the Philippines manage it), a "civil" tone to a "civil" behaving visitor is not an unreasonable expectation. 

So........how many reports would that be? Five? Ten? Fifty? Still far too small a percentage to come to the conclusion that the OP came to.

[eddysmit]

On 3/5/2019 at 11:04 AM, Sambotte said:

Arrival card (no mention of visa or re-entry on the departure) :

https://www.google.com/search?q=thai+arrival+card&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=JqIj4fewfpeNZM%3A%2CQXxF5nw_8PyJWM%2C_&usg=AI4_-kS4Z2DUA6aQjkzVzhwrdHPTsMqYPw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwio-sH3jurgAhWR63MBHaDjAWYQ9QEwAXoECAQQBg#imgrc=JqIj4fewfpeNZM:

 

It's written the visa number.

But that's not exactly the point ????

SamB,I I do know in advance,it will be of no help or consolation for you,but,in my some twenty odd years of dealing with immigration people,more years before for holiday visits,I have had three(small) irritating problems with the local immigration officers, when applying for extensions for my one year retirement,only small things,like being sent off on a trip, for a couple of hours, to get that days date for my bank statement,all have been females,it must be that time of the month,many other officers,male and females,have been very good,P.S,just remembered one nasty male piece of work, when returning to Thailand many years ago through 'Swampy', large crowds and long queues,after a time,and getting near to the queue for the immigration desk ones,I spotted one queue with only one person,all the other stretched back a fair way,as they did some years ago,I walked up and joined that queue,there was this young Japanese looking immigration officer behind the desk,with bottled lens glasses,and he began shouting at the young lady in front of his desk,Guess what,I got the same treatment,I hadn't filled out the back of the T.M card,back then I never did,until just before leaving Thailand,and obviously,that's why the queue was so short,it was because of his nasty attacking attitude.

[UKresonant]

5 hours ago, JackThompson said:

By law, anyone on any visa can be asked to show 20K Baht.  Reports to date indicate this has only happened, very briefly, at the Sadao entry-point, when they were b***-hurt about their "money in passport" scam being shut down.  No reports yet of the Bangkok airports or even Poipet asking for the money from non-Tourists.  I use a Non-O-ME, but I still have my travelers checks with - just in case.

So if I were coming in at BKK on a NonO-ME, with my son age 11 (who would be using his Thai passport) is 20k Baht enough or should I pack another 20k equiv. for him as well?

[JackThompson]

1 minute ago, johnwf1963 said:

So if I were coming in at BKK on a NonO-ME, with my son age 11 (who would be using his Thai passport) is 20k Baht enough or should I pack another 20k equiv. for him as well?

So far, no reports indicate they would require it from either of you - as it is generally only used when they are looking to deny entry - and currently only tourists.  But, if that were to change, I see no way they would demand funds for a Thai - only foreigners.

[mikecha]

On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 5:11 AM, Sambotte said:

Well i do not lie (and why would i ?).

And in may or june last year i was asked twice at Phuket, same coming back from a short trip and same retirement visa, if i was working in Thailand !

Does not make any sense, i agree with you here, and that's the whole point !!!!!!

Retirement visa, re-entry, all involving money paid legitimally = lottery ????

many getting  hasseled about visas but dont broadcast it cos they can not be bothered lasT month i had the grilling to but let it go all kinds of threats but when her big boss came cos it took to long he was like 10 seconds stamp stamp thank you and in bye she was like a lamb them maybe overiding her position many do

thats life 

stay polite not loose your cool if u think they wrong ask for a superior BUT POLITELY ALL HAVE A GREAT IMMERGRATION DAY