Safe-T-Cut Tripping Too Often

[kuzmabruk]

I have a Safe-T-Cut PR40-63Amp in my condo, off the main line.  I live in Jomtien at Chateau Dale and we have decent electrical service to our buildings/condos.

 

It is tripping very often (once every 1-2 weeks).

 

I don't understand why it is tripping so often.  There seems that there is no way to disable it and my real problem (as I see it) is when it trips my power if off until I return (sometimes days later) and reset the unit.  Freezer is defrosted onto the floor.

 

Not sure what help it is giving me.  Can't seem to understand whether I really need it or not.

 

Maybe, I need to find an electrician here in Pattaya/Jomtien that knows their stuff and can hopefully speak English (ha!).

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[steven100]

Our electrical guy .... Crossy will help answer your question. wait for his response.

[lopburi3]

Do not have a good photo but appears sensitivity can be adjusted as on most such units.  What is it set at now?  Suspect you may have a bit of leakage in refrigerator or AC unit causing it to trip and perhaps will not do so on a higher setting.  

 

This unit being on is designed to protect you from death in the event you come in contact with a hot wire/cabinet by tripping current immediately.  This is good anywhere, but in Thailand where ground is often not used it is even more important.  

[Crossy]

As above, check what sensitivity it is set to and adjust to the highest value (30mA). If it has a "bypass" position you may wish to set that when you go away, BUT you must set back to 30mA when you return as it completely disables the protection from death.

 

If you still get random tripping you are going to need a man with an insulation tester and the knowledge to use it.

[carlyai]

The OP typed. 'It is tripping very often (once every 1-2 weeks).'

I think you also have to answer the question, "has it always tripped?"

If the answer is 'yes' then it could be a faulty installation from the start.

If the answer is "no", then it could be a genuine fault.

You could also install one of those Internet of Things (IoT) wifi switches and a sensor to tell you when the power has failed or room temperature is high, and sènd you a message. Then get one of the staff from 'We Are Number One' to go and reset the Safety Cut. :)

There's a aircon shop near the cornor of Jontimen road and Theppasit rd. They seem to do a fair aircon job, but may know of an electrician. Take a photo of the Safety Cut with you to show them. Emphasise that the electrician must know about SafetyCuts and has the tools Crossy recommends.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

[kuzmabruk]

Crossy, thank you and yes the setting I am using is 30mA (highest) and unfortunately there is no disable/bypass, which would be useful when I go out of town.

 

Carlyai, thank you and it has always tripped from day one.  You are probably right that it could be a faulty installation from day one.  The IoT idea is a good one. Thanks.  I will visit the aircon shop on Thappraya near the corner of Thepprasit when I return after Songkran.

 

Do either of you have any experience with Whole House Surge Protectors?  Such as the Intermatic Smart Guard IG2240-IMSK ( https://www.intermatic.com/-/media/inriver/10230-11160.ashx/Surge Family Brochure )?

 

We do get a lot of surges here and I have already fried a few items that were protected by Belkin surge protectors, but the Belkin ones did not protect the items.

 

Appreciate your feedback and help.

 

Thanks in advance.

[sometimewoodworker]

55 minutes ago, kuzmabruk said:

Carlyai, thank you and it has always tripped from day one.  You are probably right that it could be a faulty installation from day one. 

It isn't a probable faulty installation. It is faulty either the RCBO or the wiring.

 

While you are in the building set it to the most sensitive, if it is tripping immediately that is a data point, if it only trips when an appliance turns on that is another data point. Remote diagnostics are not easy and without data even more difficult.

[ardsong]

Hi, have safe-T myself.

one unit has a button for bypass, but a newer unit does not have that option anymore

 

However, there is a method to disable the Safe-T: pull the square block RCBO with yellow test button,  a little out. You dis-engage the Safe-T function but it will not trip. (use when going out, but engage when coming home as stated above)

 

also to discover which equipment/circuit is faulty/causing the trip, you can start with all circuit breakers out.

engage Safe-T and one by one switch the circuit breakers in. Safe-T will trip at the moment you switch on the faulty circuit, be it that it looks like your tripping is not permanent but haphazard which makes this method a little time consuming ????

[Dumbastheycome]

15 hours ago, Crossy said:

As above, check what sensitivity it is set to and adjust to the highest value (30mA). If it has a "bypass" position you may wish to set that when you go away, BUT you must set back to 30mA when you return as it completely disables the protection from death.

 

If you still get random tripping you are going to need a man with an insulation tester and the knowledge to use it.

Also maybe consider that the unit itself is possibly faulty. I had similar issues with a "Bi-Tek" unit regularly dropping out. Replaced and end of problem. 

[bankruatsteve]

20 minutes ago, ardsong said:

However, there is a method to disable the Safe-T: pull the square block RCBO with yellow test button,  a little out. You dis-engage the Safe-T function but it will not trip. (use when going out, but engage when coming home as stated above)

 

My initial reaction is that cannot be a safe thing to do.  If it creates a loose connection, that would induce arcing and potential for a fire.  I cannot imagine where that would disengage the RCD element.  Do you have any support for this "method"?

[fredob43]

47 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

My initial reaction is that cannot be a safe thing to do.  If it creates a loose connection, that would induce arcing and potential for a fire.  I cannot imagine where that would disengage the RCD element.  Do you have any support for this "method"?

The safety cut out will need replacing. You will need to get a new one from your local electric shop. To save any aggro just pull the whole safety cut out out. It will work perfectly well if out.

They have redesigned the pins on the back of same so you might have to buy a whole new set up. (Mains switch on the left hand side as well) cost for that is around 1.500bt. Have enclosed a snap of same with safety cut out removed. It'll still work just as good as before but you don't have the fine cut out. But your circuit breakers will do their job as before. 

Mine has been out for months, have new one but haven't got round to changing it yet.

 

    

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, fredob43 said:

Mine has been out for months, have new one but haven't got round to changing it yet.

 

Hopefully you will get around to it before you or a member of your family dies from a faulty appliance with no ground or a direct contact with a live supply (cuts the cable on the hedge trimmer).

 

[lopburi3]

Safe-t-cut; in my experience, is a very reliable item.  Mine was installed in about 1977 (just starting to make) and still working fine.  Remove and you lose the protection they provide (much faster trip/low current than a breaker - which can be the difference between life and death).  I suspect it has saved my life at least twice.  In Thailand, with bare feet on cermatic floors that are often wet, with sweat if not actual water, it is a very important safety item.

[fredob43]

20 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Hopefully you will get around to it before you or a member of your family dies from a faulty appliance with no ground or a direct contact with a live supply (cuts the cable on the hedge trimmer).

 

I checked with my electric shop and he told me these Safety cut outs go all the time. They will work just as good without same providing you have the correct circuit breakers installed. By taking the safety cut out out it doesn't alter the set up only the fine surge you might get. Everything will work as before.

 

N/B I don't have a problem with my electric that's because everything was changed by me using all UK MK bit's (But I did buy the Thai safety cut out the only thing I have had go wrong) Did that some 13 years ago when we got the house. New S/C out is only 2 years old.

 

Don't have any electric goodies for garden I have a Thai wife that's her job, she uses snippers hands for everything.  

 

Whatever the OP dose that's up to him. But until he gets a new S/Cut out put in he can get away with the thing out. He might if the new one has the same pin set up??? just be able to push the new one in.

[bankruatsteve]

For the nth time... circuit breakers protect wire, RCD (aka "Safe-T-Cut") protect people.  They are not interchangeable.

 

And neither will stop you from getting the "tingle" or zap from class-1 device unless there is proper ground.

[Crossy]

3 minutes ago, fredob43 said:

They will work just as good without same providing you have the correct circuit breakers installed.

 

Yes, the appliances will work just fine.

 

But that's not the issue, the whole point of the Safe-T-cut unit (RCD or RCBO) is to save your life should something go wrong and you get connected to the power source.

 

A 20A breaker won't even break sweat whilst killing you (lethal current is generally accepted as being 0.05A), but it's entirely up to you what you do in your own home but please don't preach such unsafe methods to those who value their lives.

 

[lopburi3]

4 minutes ago, fredob43 said:

I checked with my electric shop and he told me these Safety cut outs go all the time.

Expect a high percentage (almost all) was the unit performing its function and cutting off current when more than the set leakage.  Easier to remove unit than find/fix actual fault is a fact of life here.  But also a real danger to life itself.  

[Crossy]

10 minutes ago, fredob43 said:

Whatever the OP dose that's up to him. But until he gets a new S/Cut out put in he can get away with the thing out.

 

How have you determined that the RCBO unit is faulty from the information given? The unit may well be faulty, but simply bypassing it isn't a fix, it's a bodge to get the power back in in an emergency, and it's not going off particularly regularly anyway.

 

I suspect that there's a N-E fault on a little used circuit which only causes issues when there's a particular set of loads. Not an easy diagnosis (and you have to find the fault to fix it) but a competent sparks (good luck there) with the correct gear should be able to at least isolate which circuit is at fault.

 

[Fruit Trader]

It just might be something outside of the condo installation tripping the device. Nuisance trips can come from external sources.

 

Leaving the circuit for your refrigerator active and disconnecting the rest might add some clues if you want to do some DIY testing.

 

You can discuss this over many pages but as already mentioned, the installation first needs testing to see if there is any leakage lurking just below the trip level.

 

If you want an electrician with proper test gear, the best place to ask is at one of the electricians supply stores scattered around the Pattaya area. If you cant speak Thai you will need someone to translate and explain the need for someone with proper test equipment. They do exist.

 

Re surge protection. A good electrician will also help with adding surge protection to your installation. A lot of suppliers around Chonburi are now stocking modular high power surge protectors.

[fredob43]

16 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

How have you determined that the RCBO unit is faulty from the information given? The unit may well be faulty, but simply bypassing it isn't a fix, it's a bodge to get the power back in in an emergency, and it's not going off particularly regularly anyway.

 

I suspect that there's a N-E fault on a little used circuit which only causes issues when there's a particular set of loads. Not an easy diagnosis (and you have to find the fault to fix it) but a competent sparks (good luck there) with the correct gear should be able to at least isolate which circuit is at fault.

 

I'm just assuming. My shop carry several in stock as they go T/ts up all the time I was told. Easy to change if you have the correct pins on the back. My one would cut out every 10 mins: or so with even a small amount of power being used. 

I did take the C/out to the shop and he tested it and it was found to have a fault seems my electric wasn't at fault just the fine C/out.

 

95% of circuit breakers in Thailand don't have a fine cut out. yes I know not good but that's the way it seems here. 

[Crossy]

3 minutes ago, fredob43 said:

I'm just assuming.

 

We have a saying in the engineering world, "Assume, makes an ass out of u and me".

 

Your old unit may well be faulty (I assume you still have it), the acid test will be when you get around to installing the new one and it behaves itself.

 

Why not install it? It's not a massive or complex task.

[Crossy]

12 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

Leaving the circuit for your refrigerator active and disconnecting the rest might add some clues if you want to do some DIY testing.

 

It should be possible to get the freezer on a circuit that's not protected by the RCBO/RCD (we designed that into our home). Exactly how depends upon what you have at present, photos of the box with the lid off would be useful.

[bankruatsteve]

I would like to know how one can simply yank out an RCBO to disengage.  If it is not in-line, then how could a trip make any difference?

[fredob43]

7 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

We have a saying in the engineering world, "Assume, makes an ass out of u and me".

 

Your old unit may well be faulty (I assume you still have it), the acid test will be when you get around to installing the new one and it behaves itself.

 

Why not install it? It's not a massive or complex task.

I know it's not a massive task. But I don't have a way of turning off the mains. Have also had my set up upgraded by electric company to 30amp?. due to the amount of things I have installed in the house. The only way of turning off power is to disconnect power from the meter. Or I will have to work on it live. Have done that several times in the past but I just haven't got round to it yet.  

[sometimewoodworker]

37 minutes ago, fredob43 said:

I checked with my electric shop and he told me these Safety cut outs go all the time. They will work just as good without same providing you have the correct circuit breakers installed. By taking the safety cut out out it doesn't alter the set up only the fine surge you might get. Everything will work as before.

Including the nice 220~230v 30A current flowing through you in the event that there is a fault. FWIW 0.02A to 0.03A for a short time is enough to kill you if flowing from hand to hand, you will also be unable to let go as the current will clamp your hands shut, and without the RCBO to cut the current to save you it can also kill anyone who tries to rescue you.

 

Luckily we don't have 110v as that is even more dangerous and without immediate access to a defibrillator is even more likely to kill you as it disrupts the heart rhythm and causes Ventricular fibrillation (harder to stop) rather than 230v which is more likely to stop the heart completely (easier to restart with chest compressions)

[Fruit Trader]

25 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

I would like to know how one can simply yank out an RCBO to disengage.  If it is not in-line, then how could a trip make any difference?

This is only a guess as I am no expert on Safety Cut products and prefer other brands.

 

The electronic detection circuit of some Safety Cut products appears to be separate from the trip mechanism it operates. This could allow the removal of detection circuit leaving the trip switch to keep the circuit connected.
 

[sometimewoodworker]

23 minutes ago, fredob43 said:

I know it's not a massive task. But I don't have a way of turning off the mains. Have also had my set up upgraded by electric company to 30amp?. due to the amount of things I have installed in the house. The only way of turning off power is to disconnect power from the meter. Or I will have to work on it live. Have done that several times in the past but I just haven't got round to it yet.  

If you don't have that then it is a reasonabley simple task to install another box with an isolator switch in it. 

 

FWIW this one has the main power cutoff ,main surge protection, and isolators for the house and workshop power, so working on one doesn't affect the other.

[fredob43]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

If you don't have that then it is a reasonabley simple task to install another box with an isolator switch in it. 

 

FWIW this one has the main power cutoff ,main surge protection, and isolators for the house and workshop power, so working on one doesn't affect the other.

Pray tell how do you fit another power cut out if you cant turn off the mains power in the first place.

 

Snap of what I have to install showing the old duff Cut out RCBO. Simple to change that by just pulling it out and pushing the new one in, except the new type has different pins on the back. So have to fit the whole thing. That means turning off mains from meter, or working on it live. The reason I haven't sorted it yet.

 

The mains power goes into the bottom two left screws and the buzz bar fits in the top.

 

 

[The Theory]

On 4/11/2019 at 12:46 PM, kuzmabruk said:

Maybe, I need to find an electrician here in Pattaya/Jomtien that knows their stuff and can hopefully speak English (ha!).

“As above, check what sensitivity it is set to and adjust to the highest value (30mA). If it has a "bypass" position you may wish to set that when you go away, BUT you must set back to 30mA when you return as it completely disables the protection from death.“

 

I’m not sure how old the panel could be. 

If there there is a older “selector switch” with visible contacts for that purpose (sensitivity current leak),

buy an ElecronicCcleaner spray from Home Pro. 

1- turn off the main switch/beaker.

2- spray the “selector switch” contacts from inside the door panel while you move the selector from low to high and high to low. Repeat it for at least a few times. Wait a few minutes and let it gets dry.

3- Then select the switch to “minimum” allowance leak. 

4- turn the breaker back on. 

You can repeat it one more time after a few days. 

This happens by moisture and high humidity that result in rusty copper selector contacts. The circuit reads high resistance by faulty “selector switch” (rusty/dirty). 

 

Dont for get: do not adjust the selector to higher leak allowance. 

 

Good luck

 

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, fredob43 said:

Pray tell how do you fit another power cut out if you cant turn off the mains power in the first place.

First get everything ready to go in the house.

 

Second  turn everything off inside the house then Go out to your meter and disconnect the cables there.

 

Yes you will be dealing with live power cables if you disconnect the PEA ones or at least a live terminal block, however as you say you've worked on live wiring before you must know enough not to kill your self. If you do disconnect the PEA cables remember to insulate them. It is much safer (not completely safe but safer) to disconnect the house supply connections.

 

Reconnect the new isolation switch and house power to it, test everything, turn everything off. Reconnect your meter then turn everything back on in the house, if no breaker  trips and there is no bang you probably have not messed up.

 

I have listed each major step not because you need them listed but someone else may.