Do you believe in God and why

[Sunmaster]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The military had ( ? have ) a policy of banning any discussion of politics and religion when I joined up. IMO it's a good rule when talking to friends as well, as both are liable to make enemies of friends.

That's reasonable, but I wasn't talking about either subject. I was talking about science and consciousness. 

[VincentRJ]

20 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

 

No. 

 

 

Yes.  Consciousness creates form.  Form does not create consciousness.

 

 

What is consciousness?

I don't see how that question debunks the theory of evolution in any way.

 

'Consciousness' is a very broad term. The simplest definition is 'awareness', that is, 'the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings'. According to this definition, it seems reasonable to assume that all forms of life, including plants, must be conscious to some degree and in some way.

 

However, because there are numerous types, levels and degrees of consciousness, one has to clearly define what type and level of consciousness one is referring to when examining consciousness from a scientific perspective.
A unique quality of human consciousness is our higher capacity for abstract thought, which allows us to develop complex languages and make distinctions between numerous 'forms', and label them, using language.

 

Form is created by 'human consciousness', because 'form' is a word created by humans. Every idea, concept, thought, word, scientific theory, non-scientific theory such as a creator God and all the other Gods throughout human history, are creations from human consciousness.

 

However, the issue that's most relevant to any life-form, including microbes and bacteria, is the accuracy of its 'conscious creations' and its ability to adapt to a changing environment, and avoid accidents and mistakes, for the purpose of survival and reproduction.

 

All life is in a constant competition for survival and reproduction. There are no exceptions that I'm aware of. If you know of any, please enlighten me.

 

A Buddhist monk might be stting peacefully in a temple or cave, pleased that he avoids all activities that can kill life, such as digging the soil whicn can kill worms and insects.
Yet he is probably not aware that within his own body there's a constant battle between competing microbes and bacteria and the human immune system.

 

The number of 'killings' each day within just one human body is astronomical; far too numerous to count.

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

That's reasonable, but I wasn't talking about either subject. I was talking about science and consciousness. 

When you said "He resorted to mocking and ridiculing, so I stopped" I assumed he was on about religion. If I got that wrong apologies.

I've stopped discussing anything serious with anyone I wish to keep talking to, as everyone is just so quick to take offense about almost anything these sad days. A sense of humour has vanished into the haze and our world is worse off for it.

[Tippaporn]

2 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

I don't see how that question debunks the theory of evolution in any way.

 

Goddamn, I love your posts, Vince.  You're respectful, you lay out well thought arguments, and you don't run away when challenged.  Deep respect once again. 

 

The reason "What is consciousness" is the question to ask is because consciousness is the very definition of life.  If something possesses consciousness then it is alive.  The fact the we we know literally nothing about it is precisely why it is the most vital question which can be asked.  Here's why:  if we don't know what consciousness is then we cannot know what it's effects in the world are.  Now if we were to know what consciousness is and what it's effects are then we would know that Darwin's Theory of Evolution is not how evolution works.  His theory is not just a little bit off.  It's massively off.

 

But how can you know what consciousness is?  After all, it's a question which has stumped science, philosophers, and theologians for millennia.  There are answers and it can be known.  What it is and what it's effects are cannot be so easily proven, however.  How do I know that?  The proof is in the pudding.  It's a question which has stumped science, philosophers, and theologians for millennia and to this date still no one can speak of consciousness with any authority.  Another prime reason that it cannot be easily proven is that consciousness is not a physical aspect of the physical universe.  You can't place a consciousness in another's hands.

 

Hell, people have tried in vain to find it's location.  Because it's not physical it doesn't, therefore, reside in a physical location.  It isn't a "thing" or an object.  Science has theorised that consciousness resides in the brain.  But after hundreds of years they've not found it anywhere in the brain.  What does that tell you?

 

3 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

'Consciousness' is a very broad term. The simplest definition is 'awareness', that is, 'the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings'. According to this definition, it seems reasonable to assume that all forms of life, including plants, must be conscious to some degree and in some way.

 

However, because there are numerous types, levels and degrees of consciousness, one has to clearly define what type and level of consciousness one is referring to when examining consciousness from a scientific perspective.
A unique quality of human consciousness is our higher capacity for abstract thought, which allows us to develop complex languages and make distinctions between numerous 'forms', and label them, using language.

 

Consciousness is, in essence, self awareness.  All consciousness is aware of itself as itself.  Therefore there are no "levels" of consciousness.  There are, however, an infinite number of types of consciousnesses.  That much has been figured out.

 

The problem with science's approach in examining consciousness is that it can't be done from the outside.  It needs to be examined, or explored, from the inside.  But that notion, the inside, is a notion which science cannot accept as it's major tenet is that only the objective universe is real.  That idea that there exists only an objective universe is precisely what will hamstring science until such time that science realises that there's more.  Until then they won't learn much more than the putrid little they know thus far.

 

You had recently posted a quote from the Wiki page on neurotheology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_religion

 

The following quote from the article is an interesting explanation of the processes that result in a Buddhist monk, meditator, or contemplative guru, experiencing what they feel is the ultimate reality, or a oneness with the universe.

 

"What Andrew B. Newberg and others "discovered is that intensely focused spiritual contemplation triggers an alteration in the activity of the brain that leads one to perceive transcendent religious experiences as solid, tangible reality. In other words, the sensation that Buddhists call oneness with the universe." 

 

The orientation area requires sensory input to do its calculus. "If you block sensory inputs to this region, as you do during the intense concentration of meditation, you prevent the brain from forming the distinction between self and not-self," says Newberg. With no information from the senses arriving, the left orientation area cannot find any boundary between the self and the world. As a result, the brain seems to have no choice but "to perceive the self as endless and intimately interwoven with everyone and everything." "The right orientation area, equally bereft of sensory data, defaults to a feeling of infinite space. The meditators feel that they have touched infinity."

 

Whilst this sounds promising to some it does not to me.  It is correct as far as showing that there are links to the brain but the approach is still one which focuses exclusively on the physical portion of the conscious mind.  The mind is a part of subjective reality.  The brain is merely it's physical counterpart.  For subjective reality to be connected to physical reality then for all practical purposes there must of course be a link between subjective reality and objective reality.  If nothing else can be said about the world then it can be said truly that our universe is practical in every respect.  Nothing operates on magic dust.  Science will, predictably, conclude that the objective reality produces the subjective reality.  They will then have it backwards.  They are moving in that direction now postulating incredibly absurd notions such as the sense of free will which people feel they have is simply an illusion created by the brain.  Hence the ludicrous conclusion that free will does not exist.  At which point science has totally gone off the rails of rationality and careened into the ditch of the bizarre.

 

3 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Form is created by 'human consciousness', because 'form' is a word created by humans. Every idea, concept, thought, word, scientific theory, non-scientific theory such as a creator God and all the other Gods throughout human history, are creations from human consciousness.

 

However, the issue that's most relevant to any life-form, including microbes and bacteria, is the accuracy of its 'conscious creations' and its ability to adapt to a changing environment, and avoid accidents and mistakes, for the purpose of survival and reproduction.

 

Humans  don't create idea.  Humans entertain ideas and hold ideas.  What an idea is is just as much of an enigma as what consciousness is.  The existence of ideas are recognised and accepted but again, what they are and where they come from, or where they go when you're done with them, no one knows.  Ideas are also a part of subjective reality, hence why so little is known about them also.

 

3 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

All life is in a constant competition for survival and reproduction.

 

That's a total fallacy which is also a product of the Theory of Evolution.  Even on an intuitive and emotional level one screams, "False!!."  Tell me, Vince, that your entire life is for no other purpose other than to reproduce and you see no cooperation anywhere in this world.  Other than your reproductive value to the human race your life is purposeless, meaningless, worthless, valueless, and only one huge joke.  And when it's over it's lights out.  Do you truly believe that?  Don't your intuitions and emotions protest even a little bit over that idea?  The intellect, on the other hand, can be made to rationalise the most ludicrous absurdities.  That much is well known as fact.

 

3 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

A Buddhist monk might be stting peacefully in a temple or cave, pleased that he avoids all activities that can kill life, such as digging the soil whicn can kill worms and insects.
Yet he is probably not aware that within his own body there's a constant battle between competing microbes and bacteria and the human immune system.

 

The number of 'killings' each day within just one human body is astronomical; far too numerous to count.

 

So  much that is misunderstood.  I'll leave that for another time.

[Tippaporn]

@Sunmaster

 

What, no reply?  I know you have thoughts about what I wrote. 

 

 

[Sunmaster]

12 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

@Sunmaster

 

What, no reply?  I know you have thoughts about what I wrote. 

 

 

Some good stuff in there but also a lot of distortions. It's going to take a while to pick through all that. 😁

[Tippaporn]

9 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Some good stuff in there but also a lot of distortions. It's going to take a while to pick through all that. 😁

 

I've got faith in you. 

[Sunmaster]

10 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

 

I've got faith in you. 

Faith is for losers. Hard evidence is what is needed!

[Sunmaster]

On 1/25/2024 at 10:12 AM, Tippaporn said:

There needs to be a blending of science (intellect) and spirituality (intuition and emotions).  Since I see science as arising as a counter to religion (not in total, of course) then for science to incorporate spirituality would be seen as a return to religious precepts.  It ain't gonna happen anytime soon.  This thread is evidence of that in spades.

 

Yes. This is a typical pre-trans fallacy. In Spiral Dynamics religion (Blue) predates science, while spirituality (Yellow and beyond) transcends (and includes) science. From one at Orange (science), the 2 are indistinguishable. It will happen sooner or later, of that I'm certain.

 

On 1/25/2024 at 10:12 AM, Tippaporn said:

Nowhere that I've seen yet is there any discussion of how specific experience is created.  I do not see any talk of ideas or beliefs; what they are, what their function is, and certainly not what their effects are.  Who is creating personal suffering?  Who creates personal fulfillment, or lack of fulfillment?  Is fulfillment in physical life something which is not attainable?  Or only in the spiritual world once we become one with the One?  Are we not spirits now, in this life, merely clothed in flesh, blood and bones?

 

What kind of fulfillment are you looking for? Physical fulfillment? Sex, food, alcohol....? How long does that fulfillment last? There's the expectation of fulfillment and then there is the experience of getting what you crave. Then the pleasure vanishes and the  search starts anew.

Are you looking for intellectual fulfillment? How do you get that? From reading books, having deep conversations with a friend? How long is that going to last? As long as you have a book and a friend. What if you don't have them? No fulfillment. 

Are you looking for a fulfillment that is not dependent on anything external? Well then, there is only one source that will never let you down. It's always there, at any time, wherever you are, it's there.

 

If you (I mean in general) are content with the first 2 options, well, go for it...until you'll get tired of being a slave to those needs.

 

Once you realise that the only lasting fulfillment comes from within, you are no longer chained to other needs. You can still make awesome love, eat a delicious steak, drink a great wine, have an awesome conversations. But the pleasure you get from all of those pales compared to the deep fulfillment of knowing who you are.

[Sunmaster]

On 1/25/2024 at 10:12 AM, Tippaporn said:

Lasting peace, happiness, security implies a final destination.  There is no final destination to anything.  That statement also implies an end to growth.  Beyond which lies eternal repetition and true death.  That is antithetical to All That Is and Seth explains how that works and why in granular detail in "Unknown Reality Vol. 1."

I think you misunderstand the meaning of those concepts. Who grows? You the body-mind called Tippa. If Tippa were to merge with AllThereIs, becoming one with it, who is there to grow? If there were anything left to grow, it would mean that AllThereIs isn't in fact AllThereIs. 

Seth talks about individuals, entities and Oversoul. What is there beyond the Oversoul? AllThereIs, right? What is there beyond AllThereIs? Nothing. Where is the growth then? Buried in its final destination?

[Sunmaster]

On 1/25/2024 at 10:12 AM, Tippaporn said:

All else emerges . . . for what reason, though?  For what purpose?  I've asked you before, why is Sunmaster in this world?  For what?  Where does Vedanta talk about creativity?  What of reincarnational selves?  If one reincarnational self attains connection with the One then what of those living the other reincarnational existences?  Given that time is simultaneous and all exists at once then how does that work?  Are the rest of the reincarnational selves liberated as well by default?  What of probable selves?  Trace selves?  Counterpart selves?  Now creativity would explain that.

I honestly don't know what would happen to other reincarnational selves, probable selves, counterpart selves, imaginary selves, transcendental selves and whatnot. Does knowing this bring me one inch closer to knowing who I am? Sure, it's interesting, but does it make me meditate deeper? I doubt it. 

Maybe that's why you can't find that information in Vedanta. Vedanta is the most practical philosophy or spiritual teaching I ever came across. It cuts through all that intellectual self-pleasuring to ask a simple question over and over again. Who am I?

Edited January 26 by Sunmaster

[Sunmaster]

On 1/25/2024 at 10:12 AM, Tippaporn said:

That's what puzzles me.  There are huge contradiction which I see.  How is it that you don't see them?  Seth's material on the ego is one such contradiction.  Yes, there are similarities.  But nowhere does Seth ever denigrate the ego.  And why relegate the ego to a lesser portion of the self?  Some parts of your greater identity are better than others?  Some, such as the ego, being kicked to the curb?  A useful tool, when it works?  Else it's only a hindrance?  That's a huge contradiction between what Seth claims and what Vedanta seems to claim.  Total opposite view points in major respects

 

Seth too says the ego is a tool, at least I remember reading so. What is the ego if not the tip of an iceberg? The ego focuses the attention on the outer world. In order to do that, the attention on the inner world has to be lessened. In that sense it becomes a hindrance if you want to direct your full focus on the inner world. It's like driving your car forward. You can't expect to go backwards at the same time. One direction excludes the other. You can't have both.

If you choose to go forward and refine the ego to be an efficient and beneficial tool, you can start using all 4 gears and go very fast. That's great. If you choose to go in reverse however, you need to stop first. Even the most efficient ego has to stop to allow you to go in reverse. Or else say goodbye to your gearbox. 😁

[Sunmaster]

On 1/25/2024 at 10:12 AM, Tippaporn said:

Another major contradiction between Vedanta and Seth's material is one which I heard in another of the Swami's videos.  He used the same whiteboard with the greater self, or the One, on the left side with a line drawn separating all else.  He then claimed that everything existing on the right side of the line was not real and not eternal.  Thet's 180 degrees from what Seth is saying.

 

Here I let my friend Bard answer for me. It's a clear and concise answer to how Advaita Vedanta sees reality.

 

 

 

The question of whether anything other than Brahman is real in Advaita Vedanta is a subtle one, and the answer depends on perspective and level of understanding. Here are some key points to consider:

 

Brahman as the Only Reality: At the ultimate level of reality, Advaita Vedanta asserts that only Brahman exists. Brahman is pure consciousness, infinite, unborn, and unchanging. It represents the absolute state of oneness, devoid of duality or separation. ("ALLTHEREIS" ... -sunmaster)

 

Maya and the Illusory World: The apparent world of diversity and change, including individual beings and objects, is understood as "maya," an illusion or superimposition on Brahman. Maya itself is not real in the same way Brahman is, but it has a relative reality, meaning it appears real on its own level within the context of the illusion. (underlining, -sun)

 

Levels of Reality: Advaita Vedanta often uses the concept of "levels of reality" to explain the relationship between Brahman and maya. Brahman is the absolute reality, while maya is the empirical or relative reality. Both levels exist, but Brahman is primary and unchanging, while maya is secondary and impermanent. (what I said about physical and mental fulfillment, -sun)

 

The Analogy of a Dream: Think of an ordinary dream. While you're dreaming, the dream world seems real, with objects, people, and experiences. However, upon waking, you know the dream was an illusion. Similarly, Advaita Vedanta compares the empirical world to a dream, with Brahman being the waking state.

 

Realness in Appearance: While Advaita Vedanta argues that the world is ultimately unreal, it doesn't deny its apparent reality for everyday life. (-sun) We interact with the world, experience emotions, and form relationships. These experiences have practical validity and significance within the context of maya.

 

Self-Realization as the Key: The goal of Advaita Vedanta is to achieve self-realization, a state of awareness where one transcends the illusion of maya and realizes their true identity as Brahman. This isn't about negating the world, but seeing it within the context of a higher reality. (What I said about enjoying physical and mental fulfillment, -sun)

 

Interpretation and Debate: Within Advaita Vedanta itself, there are different interpretations of how to understand the relative reality of maya. Some schools emphasize its unreality, while others acknowledge its practical significance.

 

In conclusion, the statement that "anything other than Brahman is not real" in Advaita Vedanta is true at the absolute level of reality. However, the world has a relative reality within the context of maya, and the two levels coexist while being ultimately different. Understanding this concept requires a shift in perspective and can be challenging at first.

[Sunmaster]

9 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

I don't see how that question debunks the theory of evolution in any way.

 

'Consciousness' is a very broad term. The simplest definition is 'awareness', that is, 'the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings'. According to this definition, it seems reasonable to assume that all forms of life, including plants, must be conscious to some degree and in some way.

 

However, because there are numerous types, levels and degrees of consciousness, one has to clearly define what type and level of consciousness one is referring to when examining consciousness from a scientific perspective.
A unique quality of human consciousness is our higher capacity for abstract thought, which allows us to develop complex languages and make distinctions between numerous 'forms', and label them, using language.

 

Form is created by 'human consciousness', because 'form' is a word created by humans. Every idea, concept, thought, word, scientific theory, non-scientific theory such as a creator God and all the other Gods throughout human history, are creations from human consciousness.

 

However, the issue that's most relevant to any life-form, including microbes and bacteria, is the accuracy of its 'conscious creations' and its ability to adapt to a changing environment, and avoid accidents and mistakes, for the purpose of survival and reproduction.

 

All life is in a constant competition for survival and reproduction. There are no exceptions that I'm aware of. If you know of any, please enlighten me.

 

A Buddhist monk might be stting peacefully in a temple or cave, pleased that he avoids all activities that can kill life, such as digging the soil whicn can kill worms and insects.
Yet he is probably not aware that within his own body there's a constant battle between competing microbes and bacteria and the human immune system.

 

The number of 'killings' each day within just one human body is astronomical; far too numerous to count.

 

I second Tippa. You're one of my favourite fellow posters. Cheers

[Sunmaster]

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

 

I've got faith in you. 

And cheers to Tippa, whose fingers must be burning hot from all the furious typing right now.

[Sunmaster]

Come on @Tippaporn Don't waste your precious time on the other thread. Come here, have a nice Thai breakfast and get your fingers dancing.

Edited January 27 by Sunmaster

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

What kind of fulfillment are you looking for? Physical fulfillment? Sex, food, alcohol....? How long does that fulfillment last? There's the expectation of fulfillment and then there is the experience of getting what you crave. Then the pleasure vanishes and the  search starts anew.

Are you looking for intellectual fulfillment? How do you get that? From reading books, having deep conversations with a friend? How long is that going to last? As long as you have a book and a friend. What if you don't have them? No fulfillment. 

Are you looking for a fulfillment that is not dependent on anything external? Well then, there is only one source that will never let you down. It's always there, at any time, wherever you are, it's there.

Just to make a comment to show that I'm still here.

 

The physical fulfillment I looked for in Thailand was sex on a lovely beach with a lovely girl and I never found the pleasure of that to vanish. Had I been able I'm sure I'd still be doing that and lovin' it. However to me sex was only a minor part of the whole romance thing, and not the most important by far.

 

Intellectual fulfillment. Be a waste of time wanting that as no one I know is interested in an intellectual discussion. Perhaps people lose interest in that as they age, which is a bit sad, though I love a good intellectual discussion on the very rare occasions I have one.

Books, get too bored to read now. Just not stimulating any more.

I get stimulated with movies that deal with life, love, succeeding in life, happiness and joy, but that's pretty one sided.

 

A good sunset is pretty fulfilling though, as is all unspoiled nature.

 

a fulfillment that is not dependent on anything external

Indeed. I have some interesting conversations with myself, but I doubt they lead to fulfillment. I have never till this day had a conversation with God. That is yet to come.

 

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Come on @Tippaporn Don't waste your precious time on the other thread. Come here, have a nice Thai breakfast and get your fingers dancing.

I get the eggs and bread, but what is the stuff looks like mince, and the round brown things ( perhaps sliced sausage )?

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

a fulfillment that is not dependent on anything external

Indeed. I have some interesting conversations with myself, but I doubt they lead to fulfillment. I have never till this day had a conversation with God. That is yet to come

The fulfillment I'm talking about is not having conversations with yourself though. That's just the mind entertaining itself. When the thoughts subside and the light beneath them gains strength, that's where the fulfillment comes from. That's the "conversation" to look out for and it's beyond words and thoughts. 

 

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I get the eggs and bread, but what is the stuff looks like mince, and the round brown things ( perhaps sliced sausage )?

What? You never had Moo Gratá when in Thailand? 

[Chris Daley]

Still not sure about this God thing.  Why does God steal candy from babies?

 

My girlfriend was making some ice cream for her family's little girls.  The blender was broken.  Not sure why God broke it but okay we went out and bought a new one.  After a hard days work we went to Tesco and bought a blender for 900 baht.  I boasted about how it was a British brand so it must be good.  When we got home the spoon was missing from the box and the speed settings are fake.  It shows 4 speed settings but it just jumps from off to on.  Some freak actually painted on lines that look like speed settings.  Well that's the first time I have seen a blender without basic 3 speeds on it.  So the blade and design is very shallow.  It just spins at the bottom and the mix doesn't mix.

 

Hope you're happy god.

Edited January 27 by Chris Daley

[Sunmaster]

25 minutes ago, Chris Daley said:

Still not sure about this God thing.  Why does God steal candy from babies?

 

My girlfriend was making some ice cream for her family's little girls.  The blender was broken.  Not sure why God broke it but okay we went out and bought a new one.  After a hard days work we went to Tesco and bought a blender for 900 baht.  I boasted about how it was a British brand so it must be good.  When we got home the spoon was missing from the box and the speed settings are fake.  It shows 4 speed settings but it just jumps from off to on.  Some freak actually painted on lines that look like speed settings.  Well that's the first time I have seen a blender without basic 3 speeds on it.  So the blade and design is very shallow.  It just spins at the bottom and the mix doesn't mix.

 

Hope you're happy god.

Thanks for this riveting story. At least now I know why you don't get it.

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

The fulfillment I'm talking about is not having conversations with yourself though. That's just the mind entertaining itself. When the thoughts subside and the light beneath them gains strength, that's where the fulfillment comes from. That's the "conversation" to look out for and it's beyond words and thoughts. 

 

What? You never had Moo Gratá when in Thailand? 

Moo Gratá

No never. Don't like spicy food and avoided anything Thai.

 

My mind never stops talking to me. I tried to meditate once but it just wouldn't shut up.

These days the only person I have proper conversations with are myself, so I'm not going to tell myself to shut up.

I'm happy to wait, as it's not going to be too much longer, thank the deity. Don't see the point of living in an insane world filled with greed and bad people.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, Chris Daley said:

Still not sure about this God thing.  Why does God steal candy from babies?

 

My girlfriend was making some ice cream for her family's little girls.  The blender was broken.  Not sure why God broke it but okay we went out and bought a new one.  After a hard days work we went to Tesco and bought a blender for 900 baht.  I boasted about how it was a British brand so it must be good.  When we got home the spoon was missing from the box and the speed settings are fake.  It shows 4 speed settings but it just jumps from off to on.  Some freak actually painted on lines that look like speed settings.  Well that's the first time I have seen a blender without basic 3 speeds on it.  So the blade and design is very shallow.  It just spins at the bottom and the mix doesn't mix.

 

Hope you're happy god.

My emojis don't work so you'll just have to imagine an emoji of a man banging his head on a brick wall.

 

Over 600 pages and some still come up with the same old <deleted> that is nothing to do with the topic.

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

My mind never stops talking to me. I tried to meditate once but it just wouldn't shut up.

That's the standard condition of everybody. The inner dialogue is how we make sense of the world around us. We lable all the objects and experiences, put them in neat categories of "good - give me some more" and "bad - avoid at all cost".

Thoughts jump around like monkeys, distracting us, stealing away our attention in an endless merry-go-round. 

You wake up, the mind starts slowly like a steam train. Your first thoughts are "what time is it?", or "that was a weird dream". You are more or less on autopilot until you have your coffee. Your mind however is already in full swing  and hasn't shut up since that first thought. And so it goes the whole day.

And for most of us, we believe that this constant stream of more or less useless thoughts is who we are and that it is our normal, unavoidable nature to be this way.

 

But that's the opposite of true. It's completely false and everybody can verify this on his own. No books needed, no guru, no funny hat or white coat people. 

 

All it takes is the first step and then the second step, and the third and...Well, you get the idea.

It will take some time and some effort, sure, but before long you will notice subtle changes in you. 

The first realisation is that you and that thought stream are not the same. "You" are the observer of that stream. It creates a space between the 2 and in time it becomes more and more difficult for the monkey to run away with your attention. 

 

Of course this is only the beginning, but this step will already give you unimaginable benefits in your life. And it's free!

Don't give up, it's worth it. 💪💪💪

[Tippaporn]

21 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I get the eggs and bread, but what is the stuff looks like mince, and the round brown things ( perhaps sliced sausage )?

 

Don't you recognise pepperoni when you see it?  Che ti succede?  Hai sangue italiano oppure no? 

 

Edit:  Oops!!!  That was TBL's comment, not yours.  I'm on my knees asking for forgiveness. 

 

Edited January 28 by Tippaporn

[Tippaporn]

On 1/27/2024 at 7:45 AM, Sunmaster said:

Come on @Tippaporn Don't waste your precious time on the other thread. Come here, have a nice Thai breakfast and get your fingers dancing.

 

You forgot to give me your address.  Being European I'd think you'd be more discriminating about what kind of bread you eat for breakfast. 

 

Just a quick story.  When we first emigrated to the U.S. the first time my mother went to a grocery store to pick up some bread and came to realise that all that was available at that time (mid-50s) was the mass produced sliced white bread she cried.  Any European would understand that and cry, too. 

[Sunmaster]

4 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

 

You forgot to give me your address.  Being European I'd think you'd be more discriminating about what kind of bread you eat for breakfast. 

 

Just a quick story.  When we first emigrated to the U.S. the first time my mother went to a grocery store to pick up some bread and came to realise that all that was available at that time (mid-50s) was the mass produced sliced white bread she cried.  Any European would understand that and cry, too. 

My wife makes sourdough bread too, so I'm covered. 💪

[Sunmaster]

17 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

 

Don't you recognise pepperoni when you see it?  Che ti succede?  Hai sangue italiano oppure no? 

 

Edit:  Oops!!!  That was TBL's comment, not yours.  I'm on my knees asking for forgiveness. 

 

Pepperoni in Italy are peppers. What you call pepperoni is salamino piccante. 

Do I have to teach you everything?!

[Red Phoenix]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

That's the standard condition of everybody. ...

Thoughts jump around like monkeys, distracting us, stealing away our attention in an endless merry-go-round. 

You wake up, the mind starts slowly like a steam train. Your first thoughts are "what time is it?", or "that was a weird dream". You are more or less on autopilot until you have your coffee. Your mind however is already in full swing  and hasn't shut up since that first thought. And so it goes the whole day.

---

~

Thanks Sunmaster for that clear and very recognizable rendering of the standard condition of everybody.

And when people are honest with themselves they will see the truth that indeed you are more or less on autopilot until you have your coffee. 

But it's that last part "until you have your coffee" that I want to challenge here. I would make the argument that this 'autopilot' condition is how +99.99 % of people live their life (including myself).  Everybody thinks that during their normal waking life, that they are 'not asleep' and have 'free will' but nothing could be further from the truth.  In reality we are just automatons and completely pre-conditioned in all our responses and actions during the day.  Yes, you can have meetings and discussions with other people, write letters, give presentations, meditate and do physical research work, and all this while you are still 'asleep'. Asleep is probably the best term to describe that condition, because it is only when you have EXPERIENCED that there is a far more encompassing level of consciousness that you will be able to appreciate the difference. Of course many when reading these words will argue that they are not asleep but wide awake. They do realize that in their present condition there are moments that they seem more aware than at other times, but they are mistaking that peak level of daily awareness with being really 'awake'. And it is very hard for most people to even consider the possibility that you are a robot driven by the whims of his Ego, but a robot nevertheless, if you have never personally experienced a different state of consciousness. 

 

Now some more personal comments.

I fully agree with Sunmaster that meditation can be a path to gradually explore that other reality. But a word of caution is necessary here as even when meditating you are not necessarily in that other state of consciousness. True, while meditating you should be less distracted by the constant dialogue of your Ego, but there is still a World of Difference between that heightened level of consciousness during meditation and actually experiencing being awake.  The best way to describe it is that in moments of being really awake that you experience a sort of 'enlightenment'.  And when you succeed in making that state permanent you will be enlightened. Having personally experienced a glimpse of such enlightenment, I can say that it is indeed a life-changing event even if it was just some 10 minutes, in which the world bathed in a golden light and I KNEW that everything in the world is perfect and exactly the way it is meant to be. And after that realization I did go to sleep (it was during the middle of the night).  And when waking up in the morning, I had fallen back into my automaton-ways but the memory of that experience is still as vivid now as +40 years ago. 

 

And even though I agree that meditation can be a path to gradually explore that other reality, personally I NEVER meditate, or at least not in the 'sitting silent and letting all thoughts go' way.  But after long lapses (often days or sometimes even weeks) of living my life asleep, I try 'self-remembering' to awaken and revive what I would call more real  consciousness.  That technique was advocated by Gurdjieff and it has the advantage that it can be done anytime and everywhere.  And it is deceptively simply as it basically consists of inwardly 'looking' from an eagle's perspective at what you are doing/ thinking.  When doing that I am instantly reminded of having been deep asleep in everything I did in between.  Of course my Ego resents being exposed, and so I am not able to upkeep that 'self-remembering' for more than 5-10 minutes, and then I slip back into my normal automaton ways of living my life...

 

So far this Sunday sermon...

 

Edited January 28 by Red Phoenix

[Sunmaster]

13 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

~

Thanks Sunmaster for that clear and very recognizable rendering of the standard condition of everybody.

And when people are honest with themselves they will see the truth that indeed you are more or less on autopilot until you have your coffee. 

But it's that last part "until you have your coffee" that I want to challenge here. I would make the argument that this 'autopilot' condition is how +99.99 % of people live their life (including myself).  Everybody thinks that during their normal waking life, that they are 'not asleep' and have 'free will' but nothing could be further from the truth.  In reality we are just automatons and completely pre-conditioned in all our responses and actions during the day.  Yes, you can have meetings and discussions with other people, write letters, give presentations, meditate and do physical research work, and all this while you are still 'asleep'. Asleep is probably the best term to describe that condition, because it is only when you have EXPERIENCED that there is a far more encompassing level of consciousness that you will be able to appreciate the difference. Of course many when reading these words will argue that they are not asleep but wide awake. They do realize that in their present condition there are moments that they seem more aware than at other times, but they are mistaking that peak level of daily awareness with being really 'awake'. And it is very hard for most people to even consider the possibility that you are a robot driven by the whims of his Ego, but a robot nevertheless, if you have never personally experienced a different state of consciousness. 

 

Now some more personal comments.

I fully agree with Sunmaster that meditation can be a path to gradually explore that other reality. But a word of caution is necessary here as even when meditating you are not necessarily in that other state of consciousness. True, while meditating you should be less distracted by the constant dialogue of your Ego, but there is still a World of Difference between that heightened level of consciousness during meditation and actually experiencing being awake.  The best way to describe it is that in moments of being really awake that you experience a sort of 'enlightenment'.  And when you succeed in making that state permanent you will be enlightened. Having personally experienced a glimpse of such enlightenment, I can say that it is indeed a life-changing event even if it was just some 10 minutes, in which the world bathed in a golden light and I KNEW that everything in the world is perfect and exactly the way it is meant to be. And after that realization I did go to sleep (it was during the middle of the night).  And when waking up in the morning, I had fallen back into my automaton-ways but the memory of that experience is still as vivid now as +40 years ago. 

 

And even though I agree that meditation can be a path to gradually explore that other reality, personally I NEVER meditate, or at least not in the 'sitting silent and letting all thoughts go' way.  But after long lapses (often days or sometimes even weeks) of living my life asleep, I try 'self-remembering' to awaken and revive what I would call more real  consciousness.  That technique was advocated by Gurdjieff and it has the advantage that it can be done anytime and everywhere.  And it is deceptively simply as it basically consists of inwardly 'looking' from an eagle's perspective at what you are doing/ thinking.  When doing that I am instantly reminded of having been deep asleep in everything I did in between.  Of course my Ego resents being exposed, and so I am not able to upkeep that 'self-remembering' for more than 5-10 minutes, and then I slip back into my normal automaton ways of living my life...

 

So far this Sunday sermon...

 

Yes, yes, yesss!

You don't post often, but when you do, you hit the nail right on the head! Love it.

 

Anything that helps lessen the grasp of the ego is worth pursuing. 

I too had such a short glimpse of what it means being truly awake,  that's why I often use the dream analogy. I spent 3 decades studying, but I finally came to the conclusion that nothing works like direct experience. Meditation is for me, a great tool to circle back to that state. Art helps as well. Walking alone in a forest or on a mountain is great too. Watching yourself from an eagle's perspective is also a great way. Whatever works is good. 

 

Another thing I realised recently. I always assumed that finding the silence behind the thoughts would automatically reveal pure awareness, but it turns out that this silence is just another stepping stone. There's a lot more to it than just quieting the mind. The silence of the mind just gives you the best working conditions for the next step.