Do you believe in God and why

[soalbundy]

On 4/25/2020 at 6:38 PM, yodsak said:

          I am. . . 

            . . .the divine expression exactly as I am, right here, right now. You are the divine expression exactly as you are, right here, right now. It is the divine expression, exactly as it is, right here, right now. Nothing, absolutely nothing, needs to be added or taken away. Nothing is more valid or sacred than anything else. No conditions need to be fulfilled. The infinite is not somewhere else waiting for us to become worthy. 

            I do not have to experience ‘the dark night of the soul’, or surrender, be purified, or go through any kind of change or process. How can the illusory separate self practise something in order to reveal that it is illusory?  

            I don’t need to be serious, honest, dishonest, moral or immoral, aesthetic or gross. There are no reference points. The life story that has apparently happened is uniquely and exactly appropriate for each awakening. All is just as it should be, right now. Not because it is a potential for something better, but simply because all that is, is divine expression. 

            The invitation to discover that there is no-one who needs liberating is constant. There is no need to wait for moments of transformation, to look for the non-doer, permanent bliss, an ego-less state, or a still mind. 

            I don’t even have to wait for grace to descend. For I am, you are, it is already the abiding grace. 

[KhunFred]

I believe in Dog. Eminently verifiable.????

[Peter Denis]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

But you must also realize that there is no mortal coil, no you, that is your own illusion as the absolute, physical death is the end of "i", the end of individuality, the true self has returned to oneness of everything and nothing, 'you' are no more. Parsons goes on to say:-

 

The Death of the Body/Mind 

            When we die it is merely the ending of a dream or the ending of a journey in time. When we die we are immediately awakened to unconditional love. When the body/mind is dropped there is no process of preparation or purification. There is no ‘after life’ or re-incarnation : these are illusions of the mind. The story is over. Not one jot could have been different. Our existence begins and ends with this dream that has been played out. We have always been the ocean and the waves, the darkness and the light, the nothing and the everything. 

Hmmmm ...

Then what was the point of your existence?

The quote also flies into the face of notions like karma and re-incarnation, that the divine spark in each of us must go through a process of conscious self-realization by learning the lessons that are placed on our path.  And this wheel of re-birth only ends when it culminates in the one-ness with everything around us and we are back 'home'. 

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

And this wheel of re-birth only ends when it culminates in the one-ness with everything around us and we are back 'home'. 

I found @soalbundy's posts too very nice but less than exact in some definitions, but here i ask you, is it really true that the wheel of re-birth has an end ?

I would say yes and no.

[Peter Denis]

21 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

... here i ask you, is it really true that the wheel of re-birth has an end ?

I would say yes and no.

The Tao that can be expressed
is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named
is not the eternal name.

~ Lao Tzu: Tao Te Ching

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

The Tao that can be expressed
is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named
is not the eternal name.

~ Lao Tzu: Tao Te Ching

Interesting paradox, but by that logic, even what we call "eternal" isn't eternal.

[Peter Denis]

7 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Interesting paradox, but by that logic, even what we call "eternal" isn't eternal.

Everything is two-fold; everything has two poles; everything has its pairs of opposites; equal
and unequal are the same thing. Contrasting things are identical in their nature and differ only
in degree; extremities touch each other; all truths are only half truths; all contradictions can be
brought into harmony with one another.
~ Principle of Polarity - from the Kybalion

[mauGR1]

6 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Everything is two-fold; everything has two poles; everything has its pairs of opposites; equal
and unequal are the same thing. Contrasting things are identical in their nature and differ only
in degree; extremities touch each other; all truths are only half truths; all contradictions can be
brought into harmony with one another.
~ Principle of Polarity - from the Kybalion

Thanks for bringing up Hermes and the Kybalion, i will have a look at it.

"As above as below" is my favourite key of understanding, but we still fall into the paradox.

Is that a truth or a half truth ?

[soalbundy]

10 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Hmmmm ...

Then what was the point of your existence?

The quote also flies into the face of notions like karma and re-incarnation, that the divine spark in each of us must go through a process of conscious self-realization by learning the lessons that are placed on our path.  And this wheel of re-birth only ends when it culminates in the one-ness with everything around us and we are back 'home'. 

There is no point, what is the point in a dream? This is only an opinion of course but it is one shared by many Indian sages and even some western mystics. An English astronomer Sir James Jeans wrote once, "The universe looks more and more like a great thought than a great machine".

 

The mistake, as I see it, is to think of one's self as a person (the idea is not original). The known cannot know the knower, the known is an object the knower is the primary perceiver. You can see a table, you are not the table, you can see your body, you are not the body, you can perceive your thoughts, you are not the mind, you are the space between two thoughts, primary awareness, aware of being or just beingness. Tony Parsons would say, there is nobody sitting in a chair, there is just sitting happening, nobody is alive, there is just aliveness happening.

 

When the Indian sage Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj refused treatment for cancer he said "I as the absolute have no need of this consciousness" ("You are not the body nor are you in the body....there is no body") Another sage, Ramana Maharshi taught that self enquiry was the quickest way to 'enlightenment', ask "Who am I'' until the "I" thought disappears into its source, basically they both taught demolishment of the illusion of self which means in the end there is no enlightenment, what is to be enlightened when the self is gone. It was said that Ramana could do this for you merely by sitting in silence with you. For Tony Parsons there is just "what is" no doer and no purpose. I think it was Papaji who said "I am that" pointing to the sky and the world. Here something that resonates strongly with me from 'the open secret' :-

 

 

There is no me or you, no seeker, no enlightenment, no disciple and no guru. There is no better or worse, no path, and nothing that has to be achieved. All appearance is source. All that apparently manifests—the world, the life story, the hypnotic dream of separation, the search for home, is the one appearing as two, the nothing appearing as everything, the absolute appearing as the particular.

 

There is no separate intelligence weaving a destiny, and no choice functioning at any level. Nothing is happening, but this, as it is, invites the apparent seeker to rediscover that which already is . . the abiding uncaused, unchanging, impersonal silence from which unconditional love overflows and celebrates. It is the wonderful mystery.. .                                                                                           Tony Parsons

[Sunmaster]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

There is no point, what is the point in a dream? This is only an opinion of course but it is one shared by many Indian sages and even some western mystics. An English astronomer Sir James Jeans wrote once, "The universe looks more and more like a great thought than a great machine".

 

The mistake, as I see it, is to think of one's self as a person (the idea is not original). The known cannot know the knower, the known is an object the knower is the primary perceiver. You can see a table, you are not the table, you can see your body, you are not the body, you can perceive your thoughts, you are not the mind, you are the space between two thoughts, primary awareness, aware of being or just beingness. Tony Parsons would say, there is nobody sitting in a chair, there is just sitting happening, nobody is alive, there is just aliveness happening.

 

When the Indian sage Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj refused treatment for cancer he said "I as the absolute have no need of this consciousness" ("You are not the body nor are you in the body....there is no body") Another sage, Ramana Maharshi taught that self enquiry was the quickest way to 'enlightenment', ask "Who am I'' until the "I" thought disappears into its source, basically they both taught demolishment of the illusion of self which means in the end there is no enlightenment, what is to be enlightened when the self is gone. It was said that Ramana could do this for you merely by sitting in silence with you. For Tony Parsons there is just "what is" no doer and no purpose. I think it was Papaji who said "I am that" pointing to the sky and the world. Here something that resonates strongly with me from 'the open secret' :-

 

 

There is no me or you, no seeker, no enlightenment, no disciple and no guru. There is no better or worse, no path, and nothing that has to be achieved. All appearance is source. All that apparently manifests—the world, the life story, the hypnotic dream of separation, the search for home, is the one appearing as two, the nothing appearing as everything, the absolute appearing as the particular.

 

There is no separate intelligence weaving a destiny, and no choice functioning at any level. Nothing is happening, but this, as it is, invites the apparent seeker to rediscover that which already is . . the abiding uncaused, unchanging, impersonal silence from which unconditional love overflows and celebrates. It is the wonderful mystery.. .                                                                                           Tony Parsons

This is tricky and difficult to get my head around.

From how I understand it, the one that Parsons describes is a state of consciousness where the ego has been completely dissolved and your individual soul consciousness has merged with All-There-Is, becoming one with it. 

From that point of view (which actually is not a point of view at all, but all possible points simultaneously), there is no I and you, no seeker, no enlightenment, nothing that has to be done or achieved. Everything just IS, perfect.

But what does that mean for us who are still walking around in 3D, identifying with our bodies and looking for answers? It doesn't mean we should stop looking and learning. Yes, at some level we are all already perfect and enlightened, but it is not by being idle that we can shed the layers of ignorance. We still have to work off previous karma holding us back and accept the life lessons to make progress, and eventually reach the state of Infinite Awareness.
If that weren't so, if there were no need for searching the truth, we would have enlightened masters everywhere. Enlightenment would be the normal state of consciousness we have at birth...then there would be no need to strive for it.

I'm really pushing the limits of my understanding here, so I might just have written a lot of BS. ???? 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Sunmaster

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

I'm really pushing the limits of my understanding here, so I might just have written a lot of BS. ???? 

Not bs at all.

We get glimpses of spiritual worlds, and then back to the physical body, like waves.

Of course there is some work to be done in the physical realm, otherwise there would be no sense in being here; in the meanwhile we are creating the conditions for a more perfect body and higher states of consciousness.

To put it simple, as in R.Steiner words, we are living in the same moment in the physical, soul and spiritual body.

[soalbundy]

8 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

This is tricky and difficult to get my head around.

From how I understand it, the one that Parsons describes is a state of consciousness where the ego has been completely dissolved and your individual soul consciousness has merged with All-There-Is, becoming one with it. 

From that point of view (which actually is not a point of view at all, but all possible points simultaneously), there is no I and you, no seeker, no enlightenment, nothing that has to be done or achieved. Everything just IS, perfect.

But what does that mean for us who are still walking around in 3D, identifying with our bodies and looking for answers? It doesn't mean we should stop looking and learning. Yes, at some level we are all already perfect and enlightened, but it is not by being idle that we can shed the layers of ignorance. We still have to work off previous karma holding us back and accept the life lessons to make progress, and eventually reach the state of Infinite Awareness.
If that weren't so, if there were no need for searching the truth, we would have enlightened masters everywhere. Enlightenment would be the normal state of consciousness we have at birth...then there would be no need to strive for it.

I'm really pushing the limits of my understanding here, so I might just have written a lot of BS. ???? 

 

8 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

This is tricky and difficult to get my head around.

From how I understand it, the one that Parsons describes is a state of consciousness where the ego has been completely dissolved and your individual soul consciousness has merged with All-There-Is, becoming one with it. 

From that point of view (which actually is not a point of view at all, but all possible points simultaneously), there is no I and you, no seeker, no enlightenment, nothing that has to be done or achieved. Everything just IS, perfect.

But what does that mean for us who are still walking around in 3D, identifying with our bodies and looking for answers? It doesn't mean we should stop looking and learning. Yes, at some level we are all already perfect and enlightened, but it is not by being idle that we can shed the layers of ignorance. We still have to work off previous karma holding us back and accept the life lessons to make progress, and eventually reach the state of Infinite Awareness.
If that weren't so, if there were no need for searching the truth, we would have enlightened masters everywhere. Enlightenment would be the normal state of consciousness we have at birth...then there would be no need to strive for it.

I'm really pushing the limits of my understanding here, so I might just have written a lot of BS. ???? 

No Tony Parsons dismisses the concept of soul as do many sages, You are the absolute, not the "I am" you, with ego and history etc. the space between thoughts 'you' or 'it', the closest that I can get to understanding this is to imagine you (the absolute) playing a virtual reality game of gymnastics with your avatar on the virtual beach, it is going well until you (the absolute) needs a pee and you take off your headset to go to the toilette, your avatar drops dead in the sand because it's turned off but you (the absolute) are still OK. You enjoyed the game and had fun when your avatar played well or slipped up, nothing matters because nothing really happened. Joey the avatar is no more but that doesn't matter either, he never existed in the first place.

 

As for searching, Papaji, (Youtube) a wise and amusing man, always ready to laugh, says stop searching, don't listen to anybody, not even me, find out for yourself, you will find the answer in silence (real internal silence), it is easy he says, don't try, don't force anything, just be empty. Realization is sometimes called empty fullness because 'being' is everything and nothing at the same time.

 

As for the love that Tony Parsons (among many others) speaks of, I have a problem there, in the human sense of the word love requires an object that is loved but both Tony, Nisargadatta and  Ramana dismiss the idea of both subject and object, they are illusions, indeed Nisargadatta speaks of 'our' true being (there is only one being) as prior to consciousness having neither attributes or desires, without form, having never been born and will never die. The absolute. This somehow coincides with the Hindu idea of Brahman as the absolute ('godhead', indeed the 13th century German Christian mystic, Meister Eckhart, speaks of a Godhead and separately a dependant god) The power of Brahman gives rise to Isvara (the creative god) combined with Maya the veil over the illusion (if I have understood correctly).

 

I do agree with Papaji that it is pointless ruminating over any of this except out of enjoyment, as an exercise, you will never come to a conclusion (therefore religions, they are easier, black and white). It can be by grace that you will have, like Tony Parsons (also youtube), a revelation but not because you have worked at it or earned it in some way. Tony once described a farmer who had just such a revelation and went to the doctors explaining that he had 'disappeared' as a person, no ego, nothing, he was one with everything and it scared him. "Ah", said the doctor somewhat helplessly, "Buddhism is supposed to be something like that I think" 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

7 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

I found @soalbundy's posts too very nice but less than exact in some definitions, but here i ask you, is it really true that the wheel of re-birth has an end ?

I would say yes and no.

Obviously the wheel of rebirth must end for humans. It will end when the human race ends. Whether that is because we pollute ourselves into extinction or because the universe dies we end at some time in the future.

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Obviously the wheel of rebirth must end for humans. It will end when the human race ends. Whether that is because we pollute ourselves into extinction or because the universe dies we end at some time in the future.

Well, the wheel of rebirth doesn't include necessarily only humans on this planet.

There are probably thousands of inhabitable planets around us, possibly inhabited by intelligent beings more or less similar to us, so it's not so obvious that the wheel of rebirth should end in the case that humans on this planets get extinct.

It's even possible that the humans manage to colonise another planet before the end of planet earth.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Obviously the wheel of rebirth must end for humans. It will end when the human race ends. Whether that is because we pollute ourselves into extinction or because the universe dies we end at some time in the future.

My understanding is that the universe dies and restarts, ebb and flood. No rebirth, what should be reborn? the body and mind are dead so to then is the ego, the story of 'me' is gone, never was. The one presence is left, never born, never dying, the impartial, silent, none judgemental witness. Presence, awareness, that which is responsible for 'being' or makes 'being' possible but for nobody in particular. Life is just lifeing, birth is just birthing, death is just deathing, earth is just earthing, it isn't for anybody or anything, it's just presence doing its thing. Presence or the absolute is your true essence, you don't HAVE a life, life is just lifeing, it isn't yours, it does what it wants it is being 'being'.

[mauGR1]

13 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

My understanding is that the universe dies and restarts, ebb and flood. No rebirth, what should be reborn? the body and mind are dead so to then is the ego, the story of 'me' is gone, never was. The one presence is left, never born, never dying, the impartial, silent, none judgemental witness. Presence, awareness, that which is responsible for 'being' or makes 'being' possible but for nobody in particular. Life is just lifeing, birth is just birthing, death is just deathing, earth is just earthing, it isn't for anybody or anything, it's just presence doing its thing. Presence or the absolute is your true essence, you don't HAVE a life, life is just lifeing, it isn't yours, it does what it wants it is being 'being'.

The reality you describe may be true and good for you, but a thousand people could describe a thousand different realities, and you would have no choice but to accept them as true, or at least partially true.

For example, to say that the physical world is an illusion makes sense if you compare it to a higher consciousness, but to say that the spiritual worlds, or higher levels of consciousness are illusions, can be difficult to prove, first we would have to go there.

[Sunmaster]

5 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

My understanding is that the universe dies and restarts, ebb and flood. No rebirth, what should be reborn? the body and mind are dead so to then is the ego, the story of 'me' is gone, never was. The one presence is left, never born, never dying, the impartial, silent, none judgemental witness. Presence, awareness, that which is responsible for 'being' or makes 'being' possible but for nobody in particular. Life is just lifeing, birth is just birthing, death is just deathing, earth is just earthing, it isn't for anybody or anything, it's just presence doing its thing. Presence or the absolute is your true essence, you don't HAVE a life, life is just lifeing, it isn't yours, it does what it wants it is being 'being'.

The body might be gone, but every thought you ever formed has been recorded somewhere. The ego might be left behind, but the energy pattern that was your personality can not be destroyed and stays with the part of us that is always present and immortal. This part is on a journey to go back to God. It has been sent out so that God could experience him/her/itself. Its purpose is to remember its true identity and to do that it requires a number of lifetimes where important lessons are learned, where karma is produced and worked off. At least that's how I see it.

 

16 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

No rebirth, what should be reborn?

In that case, why should we be born even once?
 

[mauGR1]

Wow, i have seen some 10 posts in a row which are seriously interested in a debate.

(it must be a record on this thread)

Since i was a child, it has been natural for me to believe in some sort of afterlife.

If some sort of afterlife was scientifically proven to exist in some way, (in a way it has already been proven) , would it be a proof of an intelligent design (God) at work ?

Edited April 28, 2020 by mauGR1

[ravip]

16 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Wow, i have seen some 10 posts in a row which are seriously interested in a debate.

(it must be a record on this thread)

Since i was a child, it has been natural for me to believe in some sort of afterlife.

If some sort of afterlife was scientifically proven to exist in some way, (in a way it has already been proven) , would it be a proof of an intelligent design (God) at work ?

Afterlife  has already been scientifically proven? Beyond any doubt?

Sorry, I've never heard about that.

[Peter Denis]

16 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Wow, i have seen some 10 posts in a row which are seriously interested in a debate.

...

Yes, so it's time to add a lighter touch. ????

 

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, ravip said:

Afterlife  has already been scientifically proven? Beyond any doubt?

Sorry, I've never heard about that.

I was simply alluding to the DNA which get transmitted from the parents to the children.

I take it a scientifically proven that my DNA code is being transmitted to my children.

If you like to look deeper into the subject, have a look at "epigenetics".

[Peter Denis]

4 minutes ago, ravip said:

Afterlife  has already been scientifically proven? Beyond any doubt?

Sorry, I've never heard about that.

From a philosophical point of view it makes a lot of sense that past and future of your consciousness is not a spark that lights and then disappears, but rather a learning journey from separation to one-ness.

But obviously it is not your 'personality' (your Ego with all its likes/dislikes) that will continue its journey, but your 'essence'.  

Self-realization is not about being successful in life (although that would be a side-effect of it), but of cultivating your essence.

[Peter Denis]

14 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I was simply alluding to the DNA which get transmitted from the parents to the children.

I take it a scientifically proven that my DNA code is being transmitted to my children.

If you like to look deeper into the subject, have a look at "epigenetics".

Your DNA is not your 'essence'.

The wheel of rebirth does not refer to transmitting your DNA in your off-spring.

You are well aware of this, so a rather strange post from your side.

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, Peter Denis said:

Your DNA is not your 'essence'.

The wheel of rebirth does not refer to transmitting your DNA in your off-spring.

You are well aware of this, so a rather strange post from your side.

Did i say that my essence is DNA ? Nope.

I think of DNA as a genetic code.

My genetic code lives in my children after i'm gone, so afterlife is scientifically proven.

Perhaps we could debate if DNA has a conscience, i'm inclined to think it has, sort of.

As for my "essence" or the "samsara" is it really worth we go there on TVF ?

For sure i would have a lot to say, and listen, for me it's an infinite conversation.

[Skeptic7]

7 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Wow, i have seen some 10 posts in a row which are seriously interested in a debate.

(it must be a record on this thread)

Been a serious debate going on for a year now. 

 

de·bate

/dəˈbāt/

nou 

1. a discussion on a particular topic in a public forum, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Been a serious debate going on for a year now. 

 

de·bate

/dəˈbāt/

nou 

1. a discussion on a particular topic in a public forum, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

Yes, and your opposing arguments have been noticed.

I have a countless row of confused emojis in my profile to testify that

[Skeptic7]

4 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Yes, and your opposing arguments have been noticed.

I have a countless row of confused emojis in my profile to testify that

Meanwhile, in other threads I've given your comments a number of "likes" ????. Other than this topic, we seem to have a bit in common and some similar views. Even in this thread we've found some commonality when the topic strays. 

[mauGR1]

38 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Meanwhile, in other threads I've given your comments a number of "likes" ????. Other than this topic, we seem to have a bit in common and some similar views. Even in this thread we've found some commonality when the topic strays. 

Sure, i was going to say the same.

Being skeptic is one of the necessary tools for knowledge in general, i appreciate that, and you may discover that i'm extremely skeptical on many things !

[talahtnut]

Werner Heisenberg, the father of Quantum Physics,

once said: “The first gulp from the glass of natural

sciences will make you an atheist

but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting".

Mother Nature is so complex, anything is possible.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/28/2020 at 12:26 AM, mauGR1 said:

Well, the wheel of rebirth doesn't include necessarily only humans on this planet.

There are probably thousands of inhabitable planets around us, possibly inhabited by intelligent beings more or less similar to us, so it's not so obvious that the wheel of rebirth should end in the case that humans on this planets get extinct.

It's even possible that the humans manage to colonise another planet before the end of planet earth.

Absolutely. However, if the universe was born at the same instant in time ( big bang ) and that seems logical, it follows that the fuel of every sun will run out eventually, so all life on every planet will die.

I do not believe that another universe will not be born and another after that one for infinity, so the spark will continue forever.