Do you believe in God and why

[VincentRJ]

51 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Soooooo, explain where all the matter in the universe originates from. I have no problem believing that this universe is just the latest in a very long line of universes, and after it dies another will be born, but go back far enough and it had to originate at some point.

 

 

Okay! Matter and Energy have always existed in one form or another. Everything is in a state of change. Nothing is permanent. There is no 'nothing'. There is no empty space. What appears to be empty space is just a state of 'significantly less dense' matter and energy, from the human perspective. Dark Matter and Dark Energy, which we can't detect, might be filling that 'apparently empty space', for all we know.

 

Now tell me where your imaginary God originated from. ????

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, Tagged said:

Humans the way we have exploited the earth, have no what so ever any positive effect on this planet period.

 

 

I don't think that is correct. If you were a plant, with a consciousness, you'd be thanking Humans for providing that additional CO2 which helps them thrive better. There's a lot of uncertainty about the contribution of CO2 to a warming climate, but there's no uncertainty that the increased CO2 levels are 'greening' the planet.

 

This benefit also applies to crops. If you were a rice or wheat plant, with consciousness, you'd be thanking humans for encouraging and helping them to procreate in such abundance. ????

[Tagged]

24 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

 

I don't think that is correct. If you were a plant, with a consciousness, you'd be thanking Humans for providing that additional CO2 which helps them thrive better. There's a lot of uncertainty about the contribution of CO2 to a warming climate, but there's no uncertainty that the increased CO2 levels are 'greening' the planet.

 

This benefit also applies to crops. If you were a rice or wheat plant, with consciousness, you'd be thanking humans for encouraging and helping them to procreate in such abundance. ????

You are right at some degree, maybe better to say we are our worst enemy, but also for insects and animals who contribute in the green aspect as well. Co2 is not enough, however the planet will continue its own path with or without us.

When it comes to co2, the planet contributes with natural sycles of peak periodes, so how much we actually influenses is still unknown.

[thaibeachlovers]

7 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

 

Okay! Matter and Energy have always existed in one form or another. Everything is in a state of change. Nothing is permanent. There is no 'nothing'. There is no empty space. What appears to be empty space is just a state of 'significantly less dense' matter and energy, from the human perspective. Dark Matter and Dark Energy, which we can't detect, might be filling that 'apparently empty space', for all we know.

 

Now tell me where your imaginary God originated from. ????

How do you know matter has always existed? Humans can't know the answer, but can only guess, using the crude instruments that scientists use these days.

 

However, to give my guess, God originated from the same place matter did.

I suspect that you are one that considers "God" to be some sort of being recognisable to us, but I think we would never be able to understand what "God" is anymore than a microbe can "understand" philosophy.

For all we know God is the energy that exists in the universe. Just as we are a collection of atoms in formation, with a lot of stuff going on at the molecular level that we don't even know about, so God could "be" the universe.

 

Far as I'm concerned, we are all part of God, the planet is part of God, the solar system is part of God, the galaxy is......................................................... etc.

It is my belief that everything is connected  by energy, and if we are open to it we can connect to that energy, or, as I like to describe it, God.

After all, everything is made of atoms, and atoms use energy to function. So at the very basis of everything, there is energy.

Edited December 4, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[Elad]

15 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Soooooo, explain where all the matter in the universe originates from. I have no problem believing that this universe is just the latest in a very long line of universes, and after it dies another will be born, but go back far enough and it had to originate at some point.

 

The idea of a Creator God, who is All Powerful and very Intelligent, and who created the entire universe and all life is no more silly than believing the first universe just happened, or that it has been around forever.

We may never know how the mass/energy came into exitance or whether we a part of some multiverse, but there's one thing we do know about the universe, and that is complexity always comes from simplicity. For example, we know that in the very early universe there was only hydrogen and helium the two most basic elements, and at that time there were no planets, no moons and no life in the universe. It took millions of years for the first generation of stars to form and it was this that gave rise to the heavier elements that makes up planets and moons and luckily for us life. So we know that the universe was less complex at the beginning, than the universe we observe today.

 

The same goes with life on Earth. Since Darwin's time, we now know that life has evolved from simple organisms to more complex organisms over billions of years to eventually produce the complex life we see today such as mammals and us humans. Although evolution is still a theory its actually a fact, about on par with the fact that the Earth goes around the Sun.

 

So what I'm trying to say is that if you were to put a "God creator" at the beginning then that would mean we have simplicity from complexity, and if a God created spacetime, all the laws of physics with all the physical constants etc.. then God would have to be the most complex, most intelligent entity we could ever imagine, and that would need a full explanation on its own i.e.. how did god evolve?  and please don't say 'God is eternal' because that's just an easy way out for you believers.

Complex beginnings go against the spirit of science.    

 

[VincentRJ]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How do you know matter has always existed? Humans can't know the answer, but can only guess, using the crude instruments that scientists use these days.

 

 

Of course I don't know with absolute certainty. You asked the question and I answered to the best of my ability, in accordance with my limited understanding of Physics, but in a rational and logical manner in relation to that understanding.

 

You've probably heard of 'The law of Conservation of Energy', which states that energy can neither be created not destroyed, but only converted from one form to another. Mass is a form of energy, as expressed in the Einstein equation; Energy = Mass x Speed of Light squared.

 

If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then it follows logically that the energy, and 'matter equivalence' in the universe, has always existed.

 

I find the ''often asked' question, 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' quite futile. Nothing, by definition, cannot possibly exist. That's what the word means, assuming that 'thing' refers to every particle, sub-particle, wave, and every type of energy and matter however small or large, whether Baryonic or Dark. The hypothesis of the existence of an infinitely dense 'singularity' prior to the Big Bang, is not nothing. A singularity is not 'nothing', it's a singularity.

 

"However, to give my guess, God originated from the same place matter did.
I suspect that you are one that considers "God" to be some sort of being recognisable to us, but I think we would never be able to understand what "God" is anymore than a microbe can "understand" philosophy."

 

We can only discuss issues using words that have a definition and meaning. Many people seem to believe that God is a Being, and many religious scriptures attempt to describe His characteristics, attributing human-like emotions to Him, such as 'jealousy'. Others seem to think that God is an Intelligent and Impartial Designer who doesn't directly intervene in human affairs.

 

You, on the other hand, seem to think that God is unknowable, yet you appear to believe in His or It's existence, which seems rather odd. However, if you define God as another word for the entire universe, then God obviously exists, but that's not the usual definition of God.
 

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, Elad said:

So what I'm trying to say is that if you were to put a "God creator" at the beginning then that would mean we have simplicity from complexity, and if a God created spacetime, all the laws of physics with all the physical constants etc.. then God would have to be the most complex, most intelligent entity we could ever imagine, and that would need a full explanation on its own i.e.. how did god evolve?  and please don't say 'God is eternal' because that's just an easy way out for you believers.

Complex beginnings go against the spirit of science.    

By definition, God knows everything, so IS the most complex, most intelligent entity we could ever imagine. How can anyone believe in God and think otherwise?

 

How did God evolve?

I don't believe the perfect being needed to "evolve". That IMO is only for primitive beings. Perhaps when we "evolve" enough we will know how God came to be, but why would you think that I know?

 

Science? Don't make me laff! Humans are too primitive to have science capable of preventing cancer or curing hate, so how could our rudimentary science know much about the divine?

 

A being that can create the universe is not bound by our "science", IMO.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

We can only discuss issues using words that have a definition and meaning. Many people seem to believe that God is a Being, and many religious scriptures attempt to describe His characteristics, attributing human-like emotions to Him, such as 'jealousy'. Others seem to think that God is an Intelligent and Impartial Designer who doesn't directly intervene in human affairs.

 

You, on the other hand, seem to think that God is unknowable, yet you appear to believe in His or It's existence, which seems rather odd. However, if you define God as another word for the entire universe, then God obviously exists, but that's not the usual definition of God.
 

To start with, why should I give a monkey's about "the usual definition of God". I've been saying for many of the past 695 pages that God is undefinable, but people keep trying to describe God as something human like. Humans can't even stop killing each other, so God is IMO nothing like humans at all.

I too believe that God is a being, as in an intelligence beyond anything we can comprehend. IMO God can appear as anything as God is everything. The Bible talks of burning bushes- I talk of sunsets.

 

There is no contradiction to believe that God exists and is unknowable. God is not definable in the way that love is not definable. We can describe how we feel when in love, but it's not provable. Same same with God. I know God exists, but can't prove it.

 

So, I'm answering the topic title. I believe in God, and I do so because it's real for myself but an individual and unique feeling.

Anyway, not too many years ( or less ) till I pass over and all will be revealed to me then.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

 

Of course I don't know with absolute certainty. You asked the question and I answered to the best of my ability, in accordance with my limited understanding of Physics, but in a rational and logical manner in relation to that understanding.

 

You've probably heard of 'The law of Conservation of Energy', which states that energy can neither be created not destroyed, but only converted from one form to another. Mass is a form of energy, as expressed in the Einstein equation; Energy = Mass x Speed of Light squared.

 

If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then it follows logically that the energy, and 'matter equivalence' in the universe, has always existed.

 

I find the ''often asked' question, 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' quite futile. Nothing, by definition, cannot possibly exist. That's what the word means, assuming that 'thing' refers to every particle, sub-particle, wave, and every type of energy and matter however small or large, whether Baryonic or Dark. The hypothesis of the existence of an infinitely dense 'singularity' prior to the Big Bang, is not nothing. A singularity is not 'nothing', it's a singularity.

 

"However, to give my guess, God originated from the same place matter did.
I suspect that you are one that considers "God" to be some sort of being recognisable to us, but I think we would never be able to understand what "God" is anymore than a microbe can "understand" philosophy."

 

We can only discuss issues using words that have a definition and meaning. Many people seem to believe that God is a Being, and many religious scriptures attempt to describe His characteristics, attributing human-like emotions to Him, such as 'jealousy'. Others seem to think that God is an Intelligent and Impartial Designer who doesn't directly intervene in human affairs.

 

You, on the other hand, seem to think that God is unknowable, yet you appear to believe in His or It's existence, which seems rather odd. However, if you define God as another word for the entire universe, then God obviously exists, but that's not the usual definition of God.
 

To start with, why should I give a monkey's about "the usual definition of God". I've been saying for many of the past 695 pages that God is undefinable, but people keep trying to describe God as something human like. Humans can't even stop killing each other, so God is IMO nothing like humans at all.

I too believe that God is a being, as in an intelligence beyond anything we can comprehend. IMO God can appear as anything as God is everything. The Bible talks of burning bushes- I talk of sunsets.

 

There is no contradiction to believe that God exists and is unknowable. God is not definable in the way that love is not definable. We can describe how we feel when in love, but it's not provable. Same same with God. I know God exists, but can't prove it.

 

So, I'm answering the topic title. I believe in God, and I do so because it's real for myself but an individual and unique feeling.

Anyway, not too many years ( or less ) till I pass over and all will be revealed to me then.

[VincentRJ]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

To start with, why should I give a monkey's about "the usual definition of God".

 

Because you are not a monkey. You are a Human with a capacity for language, each word of which has to have a 'usual' definition, within its context, in order for people to understand what you're talking about.

 

"I've been saying for many of the past 695 pages that God is undefinable, "

 

Yet in your previous post to Elad, you have written the following:

 

"By definition, God knows everything, so IS the most complex, most intelligent entity we could ever imagine. How can anyone believe in God and think otherwise?......I don't believe the perfect being needed to "evolve".

 

Do you see the contradiction? One the one hand you are saying God is undefinable, and on the other hand you are defining God as the most intelligent and complex entity that we could ever imagine, and a 'being' who is perfect. ????

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

 

Because you are not a monkey. You are a Human with a capacity for language, each word of which has to have a 'usual' definition, within its context, in order for people to understand what you're talking about.

 

"I've been saying for many of the past 695 pages that God is undefinable, "

 

Yet in your previous post to Elad, you have written the following:

 

"By definition, God knows everything, so IS the most complex, most intelligent entity we could ever imagine. How can anyone believe in God and think otherwise?......I don't believe the perfect being needed to "evolve".

 

Do you see the contradiction? One the one hand you are saying God is undefinable, and on the other hand you are defining God as the most intelligent and complex entity that we could ever imagine, and a 'being' who is perfect. ????

You are beating a strange drum and I'm at a loss to understand why, so bye.

[Sunmaster]

12 hours ago, Elad said:

So what I'm trying to say is that if you were to put a "God creator" at the beginning then that would mean we have simplicity from complexity, and if a God created spacetime, all the laws of physics with all the physical constants etc.. then God would have to be the most complex, most intelligent entity we could ever imagine, and that would need a full explanation on its own i.e.. how did god evolve?  and please don't say 'God is eternal' because that's just an easy way out for you believers.

Complex beginnings go against the spirit of science.

 

Anything that has a beginning and is subject to an evolution over time, is bound to have an end too.

God, defined as the highest principle of all there is, must exist outside of time. 

How could something that can die be God? If you think like that, you'd have to ask "How was God born?", and "Who are God's parents? " and so on ad infinitum. 

[Tagged]

25 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

 

Anything that has a beginning and is subject to an evolution over time, is bound to have an end too.

God, defined as the highest principle of all there is, must exist outside of time. 

How could something that can die be God? If you think like that, you'd have to ask "How was God born?", and "Who are God's parents? " and so on ad infinitum. 

I have written it before, and do it again. We will be able to act like god one day, and fertilize a another planet. We will die on this planet, but our dna will continue to live somewhere else. Maybe this is how it continues. Who knowes. 

 

Eternal life are for those who reproduce

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/5/2020 at 11:48 PM, Tagged said:

I have written it before, and do it again. We will be able to act like god one day, and fertilize a another planet. We will die on this planet, but our dna will continue to live somewhere else. Maybe this is how it continues. Who knowes. 

 

Eternal life are for those who reproduce

IMO not true.

Even if humans didn't become extinct before the universe dies, everything has to die then, unless they have passed over to become one with God, IMO.

The universe is finite, being within the restrictions of science, and every finite thing ends.

It can only exist forever, if the laws of science are changed, which would imply the existence of "God", IMO.

[Tagged]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO not true.

Even if humans didn't become extinct before the universe dies, everything has to die then, unless they have passed over to become one with God, IMO.

The universe is finite, being within the restrictions of science, and every finite thing ends.

It can only exist forever, if the laws of science are changed, which would imply the existence of "God", IMO.

You are talking about one universe only? Our solar among how many in our galaxy will die, but so many more will continue as long our universe and other universes exists. 

 

DNA can travel from planet  to planet, from galaxy to galaxy and also to other universes, why is that so hard to believe? 

 

Eternal life 

[VincentRJ]

On 12/5/2020 at 8:21 PM, Sunmaster said:

 

Anything that has a beginning and is subject to an evolution over time, is bound to have an end too.

God, defined as the highest principle of all there is, must exist outside of time. 

How could something that can die be God? If you think like that, you'd have to ask "How was God born?", and "Who are God's parents? " and so on ad infinitum. 

 

Sunmaster,
Haven't you heard of the 'Law of Conservation of Energy'? Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but only changed from one form to another. That's one of the most fundamental principles of modern science.

 

Are you a 'Science Denier'? Why is it necessary to imagine the existence of some 'being' or 'entity' that created something which can neither be created nor destroyed according to a major, fundamental, principle of science?

 

When you die, you do not cease to exist. You simply contribute to other forms of life. Your ashes will fertilize the soil, increasing plant growth; or, if you are attacked and eaten by a Lion, your death could be directly related to the survival of a baby lion cub.

 

There are natural cycles that takes place in nature. We eat plants which provide us with energy, enabling us to work. Byproducts of that energy-production are faeces, urine, and CO2 which we breathe out. Faeces and urine are good for the soil, and CO2 in the atmosphere is good for plants; the more the better. Also, when animals die, their bodies gradually decompose, returning some of the nutrients to the soil that the animals extracted during their life span

 

Unfortunately, we've distanced ourselves from nature so much, we now consider those essential ingredients for soil fertility, such as faeces, urine, and CO2, as pollutants. Most people seem to have lost an understanding of natural cycles. Ego, vanity, hubris, pride, and power over others, dominate.

 

Most people live in an artificial, hierarchical environment, where they pride themselves in achieving greater control. An ultimate power and authority, such as God, is an imaginary product of this artificial environment.

[Sunmaster]

10 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Are you a 'Science Denier'? Why is it necessary to imagine the existence of some 'being' or 'entity' that created something which can neither be created nor destroyed according to a major, fundamental, principle of science?

Of course not. I value science just as much as you or anyone else, but I also know that it is a product of men and women and as such it is not infallible or applicable (in its current state/level at least) to all facets of life.

You seem to think that I or any other believer "imagine" the existence of a higher power. It's a (not so) veiled condescending statement intended to talk down to those "irrational, naïve science deniers", while implying that your arguments on the other hand are rational, based on science and therefore must be unquestionably true. 

Well, I'm not going to play this game. 

All I will tell you is this....Maybe one day you'll want to find out for yourself if a higher power, God or whatever you want to call it, exists or not. It is not by listening to others, whether scientists or gurus, that you can find the answers, but by having a long and deep look within. The tools to do this are there for anyone willing to use them.
All else is meaningless froth on the sea of eternity.

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

You seem to think that I or any other believer "imagine" the existence of a higher power. It's a (not so) veiled condescending statement intended to talk down to those "irrational, naïve science deniers", while implying that your arguments on the other hand are rational, based on science and therefore must be unquestionably true. 
 

 

Not at all. Questioning issues is the basis of science. Questioning that fundamental Law of Conservation, that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, is completely reasonable. However, the quality of the results of that questioning, depends on the soundness of the evidence presented.

 

I've not come across any evidence that energy can be created from nothing, whether by God or any other process. Perhaps you can enlighten me. ????

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

Perhaps you can enlighten me. ????

No, I can't do that for you. Only you can.

 

[Surelynot]

Just now, Sunmaster said:

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

Perhaps you can enlighten me. ????

No, I can't do that for you. Only you can.

Surely God could?

[Sunmaster]

Just now, Surelynot said:

Surely God could?

You should ask yourself who you truly are. You'll surely find the answer to your question above. 

[Tagged]

6 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

No, I can't do that for you. Only you can.

 

That is so true as said!

 

no matter what it is, it is up to me, and me only. Some help and guidance on the way is necessery, but at the end, it is up to me. 

 

Two important things, get rid of pride and ego and you will find ;-)

 

 

[VincentRJ]

11 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

No, I can't do that for you. Only you can.

 

 

Okay! I'll rephrase my question. 'Perhaps you can assist in enlightening me with regard to any evidence that the Law of Conservation of Energy is not true.

 

As you probably already accept, everything is connected to some degree and is interdependent. Human life is a continuous process of change, rising and falling through interdependence with numerous other processes. Enlightenment, on whatever issue, cannot be achieved without the help and influence of others. Agree?

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, Tagged said:

You are talking about one universe only? Our solar among how many in our galaxy will die, but so many more will continue as long our universe and other universes exists. 

 

DNA can travel from planet  to planet, from galaxy to galaxy and also to other universes, why is that so hard to believe? 

 

Eternal life 

You'd have to prove that there is more than one universe at the same time and that it is possible to travel from one to another for me to believe that.

 

I believe that it is possible for energy to pass to/ from the other side, but no way I agree that matter can.

 

Unless new stars are being born from matter that didn't already exists in the universe, eventually the last star will burn it's fuel and die, which is the end of the universe that can support life in any form, IMO.

[Peter Denis]

10 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

...

Unless new stars are being born from matter that didn't already exists in the universe, eventually the last star will burn it's fuel and die, which is the end of the universe that can support life in any form, IMO.

Would Pure Consciousness have a need for 'matter' or for the 'Universe'?

Asking for a friend...

[canuckamuck]

13 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

 

I've not come across any evidence that energy can be created from nothing, whether by God or any other process. Perhaps you can enlighten me. ????

I am curious to see what the limitations of God were determined to be, from your evidence.

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

No, I can't do that for you. Only you can.

 

So true.

 

What those that have set out to change our minds whether by mockery ( they seem to have departed ) or by "science" don't understand is that "enlightenment" is something that comes from within ourselves, and we have to be open to it to experience it. If one is determined to be closed minded, it would be like looking at a closed door and expecting to be able to see what is on the other side, to expect enlightenment.

We, or at least I don't need to prove it because I know, as much as I know that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west that God exists.

 

Perhaps when we die, the unbelievers cease to exist in spirit, and only those that believe progress to the other side. That must be what they believe- if there is no God, there is no other side, and they cease to exist soon as their body dies. That alone is too black for me to accept- to survive, IMO, there must be hope that life is for a purpose, or else why bother living?

Edited December 8, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

8 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

I am curious to see what the limitations of God were determined to be, from your evidence.

That would be interesting as he claimed in a post to me that God is imaginary. Ergo if God is imaginary, there can be no limitations, as God does not exist for him.

[luckyluke]

15 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

It is not by listening to others, whether scientists or gurus, that you can find the answers, but by having a long and deep look within. The tools to do this are there for anyone willing to use them.

Of course not agree,

you write " the answers "

rather than

" the answers according to me ".

[VincentRJ]

15 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

I am curious to see what the limitations of God were determined to be, from your evidence.

My point is, if the Law of Conservation of Energy is true, there is no need of a 'Creator God', and such a God would be in conflict with that law, since the 'Law' states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed.