Do you believe in God and why

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

An funny quote popped in my mind...

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

 

It's from Socrates, but just as relevant today as it was 2500 years ago.

It came to my mind because he thought the bad behaviour of the youth had reached its lowest point. Little did he know that 2500 years later, parents and teachers would be faced with the exact same issues he had.

 

You think you were lucky to experience the appice of human evolution in the 50s-60s, and think it's all downhill from there. Can you see the similarity? ????

 

Socrates was forced to kill himself in 399 BC and 253 years later Rome conquered Greece. Empires fall because they rot from within, and lazy, self entitled children are a big part of that.

Given that I put the peak of our civilization at 1963, that gives us till 2216, but I think less time than that realistically.

Absolutely I think we've been on the downward slope since 1963, when the world lost the last leader with a vision of a better world. Now it's all about money and status. IMO the people's of the world have lost their moral compass. I don't believe in religion, but it did encourage people to try and live their best lives, but with so many not believing in anything but the latest fad, what hope is there for a brighter future?

So what if the youth of today have stupid smart phones, when they are likely to die early of diabetes and heart problems caused by obesity? The world has never been so rich in food as now, and people are eating themselves to an early grave.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/31/2021 at 10:35 PM, covidiot said:

I don't think I am a Pavlovian dog.

Or maybe I am.

The concept of 'losing your soul' has some validity to me, logically.

But I think the specifics about 'heaven and hell' from christian texts is not accurate. But christianity doesn't have a monopoly on the philosophy of god. It's just one philosophy. And a flawed one.

 

 

Substitute "self" for "soul" and people can definitely lose themselves to evil.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I suppose one response could be, that the point is, who cares how I or others feel about there being so much pain required in the rolling out of god's plan. I am putting too much importance in the human experience and we are like ants compared to the bigger picture.

However a believer in the god's plan theory is in my opinion the one putting too much importance on the individual.

To say that an ant was killed for the bigger picture of a hospital, or World War 2 lead to rethinking of the world by humanity, is to give each death an importance in the fulfillment of god's plan. 

In my theory people aren't important in that sense - they are important because in the real world each of us wants to be treated fairly and to live with freedom, and politically and socially it might work best as a community to see that this happens. Suggesting that all that pain is in a sense progress towards god's plan is to justify and give credence to such events and to complicate how humans might do better in the for the future.  

Individuals, for example,  who cause pain and horror should be responsible, full stop, so we can live in reality and have a better future. This is more sensible in my opinion than the  belief that we are disposable but important cogs in a wheel of god's progress and that in a sense all events are god's doing and are perfect.  

 

Before one can talk about God's plan, one would have to know what that plan is. To my knowledge God has never told us what it is.

IMO individual lives have no cosmic significance, and come to it, individual species have no cosmic significance.

The universe was created, it exists and eventually it will end when the last star uses the last of its fuel.

IMO we came from God and to God we will return, but whether our time on earth is significant to us on the other side, I can not say.

BTW, when I refer to "we", I mean our spirit that our body carries around, not our biological transport mechanism. From dust our bodies came and to dust they will return, but our spirit will live on.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Please, let's not use the "But what about the children!?" argument, as it would weigh down everything with useless emotions and would quickly get out of hand, with one group accusing the other of being cold, cynical monsters, and the other group labeled as snowflakes or other such nonsense.

 

 

I agree, but I fail to see why one way of thinking would prevent the other. I believe in the perfection of every instant, yet I also believe that we should not allow any behaviour that causes pain and suffering to others. 

In an ideal world, people would always know right from wrong and do the right thing. Society would progress very quickly in a straight line, choosing the path of least resistance. Our reality is not like that unfortunately. Society goes from one extreme to another like a pendulum, but at the same time progressing towards the same ideal point in the future. We are exploring what works and what doesn't and we will eventually overcome (transcend) the status quo, and emerge in a new consciousness. The same way we grew out of our teenager mindset, included and transcended it, and emerged with a completely new way of seeing the world....more mature, responsible, less self-centered, and ready for new challenges.

That's the way the world works too. We are going from a ME-ME-society (focused on the individual) to a WE-society (focused on the community), from childhood to adulthood. Not in a straight line, but by testing out different paths, until a path emerges that gives the most benefits for most people. 

I respect your optimism, but I don't share it.

However, I don't need to expand on my negative opinion of mankind on here.

 

Dreams of a better life are important though. When we stop dreaming, we lose hope.

 

[mauGR1]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Easy answer. There is something about the electronic media that makes people as addicted as surely as heroin. I'm the proof of it, as I'm pretty cynical about such nonsense as social media etc, but I'll waste hours on the internet/ tv etc even though I KNOW I'm wasting my time.

I slightly disagree, there cannot be an easy answer to what is a result of 1000s of years of recorded history of humans on this planet.

Many thousands of books have been written,  and theories abound,  a can be discussed for aeons. 

I'm also quite surprised that a few posts back you were suggesting that i might regret spending time trying to decipher  R.Steiner thoughts, whose aim is  simply to develop  the human  thought,

as now you're saying that you're wasting time watching the TV. 

Not criticizing your choices, but i have some thoughts about TV, movies and brainwashing which i guess I'll do better to keep for myself. 

 

[covidiot]

On 6/2/2021 at 4:32 AM, Sunmaster said:

Pollution....yes, up to the 90s it was very bad (and still is in some parts of the world).

This is from United Airlines Twitter page. Not only net-zero emissions, but much faster. That's mind-blowing.

 

We're the first U.S. airline to sign an agreement for

@boomaero's ‘Overture’ (supersonic) airliners which are expected to be net-zero carbon and connect 500+ cities in nearly half the time. Taking off in 2029.

[covidiot]

53 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

R.Steiner thoughts, whose aim is  simply to develop  the human  thought,

which most people have no interest in. 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by covidiot

[mauGR1]

11 hours ago, covidiot said:

which most people have no interest in. 

 

 

 

Not surprised.

One can take the horse to the water, but cannot force the horse to drink ????

[covidiot]

34 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Not surprised.

One can take the horse to the water, but cannot force the horse to drink

If robots take our jobs and people are no longer forced to labor most of their waking life for survival and materialism has less of a grip on us, people may change and pay more attention to cultivating other aspects of themselves .. ie spend more time thinking about complex philosophical and esoteric stuff ...

But we will be dead before that shift happens, if ever. 

And, as always, maybe I'm delusional. 

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, covidiot said:

If robots take our jobs and people are no longer forced to labor most of their waking life for survival and materialism has less of a grip on us, people may change and pay more attention to cultivating other aspects of themselves .. ie spend more time thinking about complex philosophical and esoteric stuff ...

But we will be dead before that shift happens, if ever. 

And, as always, maybe I'm delusional. 

Sorry, but it's obvious that,  on average, the working lives of the common folks have become more comfortable in the last centuries ( the increased longevity supports that ) , but i don't see how materialism has lost any power. Quite the opposite imho.

I am aware that the only way is forward, but using and abusing technology without strong moral ethics is a recipe for disaster.

That's why materialistic science and spiritual science should be friends and not enemies. 

[covidiot]

9 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

but i don't see how materialism has lost any power. Quite the opposite imho.

I am aware that the only way is forward, but using and abusing technology without strong moral ethics is a recipe for disaster.

materialism hasn't lost its power yet. but i'm guessing it might happen. 

 

feel free to let me know how you think things will change or should change or shouldn't change. what abuse are you talking about?

 

 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

10 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Sorry, but it's obvious that,  on average, the working lives of the common folks have become more comfortable in the last centuries ( the increased longevity supports that ) , but i don't see how materialism has lost any power. Quite the opposite imho.

I am aware that the only way is forward, but using and abusing technology without strong moral ethics is a recipe for disaster.

That's why materialistic science and spiritual science should be friends and not enemies. 

I think materialistic science encompasses the concept of spiritual science. Think of Steiner as an ideas person, an artist, who shook the tree of how things were done and came up with some good notions, wild imaginings and some bad science.

I still think everything is stuff even if a form of energy or something else so covered by the one and only science. 

If you feel that you dream into some other realm and experience something unique you may have to accept a certain loneliness - a loneliness borne from your illusions or a loneliness coming from the fact that scientific technology can't go there yet.  Or find a way to be able to test and calculate and provide evidence for your own experiences and prove that it's a thing. 

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, covidiot said:

what abuse are you talking about?

Well, the most obvious i can think about,  is war planes worth millions,  real prodigies of technology,  used to bomb and burn poor peasants and their children.

.. but there are plenty of other more subtle abuses, just think about those beautiful commercials,  who use the best tricks to convince people to buy and eat junk food. 

Unfortunately some of the best minds are employees of some of the worst minds, enough said.

 

[mauGR1]

45 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I think materialistic science encompasses the concept of spiritual science. Think of Steiner as an ideas person, an artist, who shook the tree of how things were done and came up with some good notions, wild imaginings and some bad science.

I still think everything is stuff even if a form of energy or something else so covered by the one and only science. 

If you feel that you dream into some other realm and experience something unique you may have to accept a certain loneliness - a loneliness borne from your illusions or a loneliness coming from the fact that scientific technology can't go there yet.  Or find a way to be able to test and calculate and provide evidence for your own experiences and prove that it's a thing. 

Since time immemorial, those who don't follow the stream have to accept some degree of loneliness. 

I find nothing wrong with that, it's a win-win... materialists are not interested in my reasoning,  and I'm not really interested in their opinions ????

There was a time, many years ago, when i was practicing some yoga breathing techniques,  and i remember one morning at a supermarket,  being able to see the colors of people's thoughts. 

I was extremely disappointed,  and quite surprised,  definitely, i see my loneliness as a blessing. 

[Sunmaster]

2 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I think materialistic science encompasses the concept of spiritual science.

I think it's the other way around actually. ???? 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

10 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Since time immemorial, those who don't follow the stream have to accept some degree of loneliness. 

I find nothing wrong with that, it's a win-win... materialists are not interested in my reasoning,  and I'm not really interested in their opinions ????

There was a time, many years ago, when i was practicing some yoga breathing techniques,  and i remember one morning at a supermarket,  being able to see the colors of people's thoughts. 

I was extremely disappointed,  and quite surprised,  definitely, i see my loneliness as a blessing. 

To me yoga is physical. To put some spiritual thing on top it is to have faith and to put a construct over the top of, or to make an assumption, that might get in the way of yoga. Physical lungs. Physical body. To me the unusual experiences or thoughts that might be experienced are due to a clearing of the mind and balancing the mind and body. Similar to dreams. 

Same as if I don't do strong physical exercise I note a change in my self  for the worse. 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

8 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

I think it's the other way around actually. ???? 

As long as we concur  it's all science, that should be consistent and testable, even if we can't do so for all theories at this stage. 

[mauGR1]

38 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

To me yoga is physical. To put some spiritual thing on top it is to have faith and to put a construct over the top of, or to make an assumption, that might get in the way of yoga. Physical lungs. Physical body. To me the unusual experiences or thoughts that might be experienced are due to a clearing of the mind and balancing the mind and body. Similar to dreams. 

Same as if I don't do strong physical exercise I note a change in my self  for the worse. 

Are you saying that everything is physical ?

We are talking about physical and spiritual, so just to avoid any misunderstanding, there's not a barrier,  nor a well defined border between the 2.

One can say that the physical is an aspect,  a form of the spiritual. 

For example, we all know "water".

Water can be seen in a liquid state, and can become ice with a change in temperature.. Heated becomes vapour..

We can compare ice to the physical and vapour to the spiritual, but it's just water.

 

It's your spiritual form who is keen to investigate what is the difference between water, ice and vapour. A dog or a cat just don't care  ????

 

As for the faith in God, which, let's not forget, is what this thread is about,  that's a completely different thing.

More than 1 year ago, a poster told a proverb which I hadn't heard before, but i think is remarkable. :

"There are no atheists on a sinking ship".

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/4/2021 at 10:45 PM, mauGR1 said:

I'm also quite surprised that a few posts back you were suggesting that i might regret spending time trying to decipher  R.Steiner thoughts, whose aim is  simply to develop  the human  thought,

I have no recollection of doing that, and if I implied that as you lay it out I would have been wrong to do so. Perhaps I wrote something ambiguous.

I'll have a look back at previous posts and see if I can find the one.

 

My philosophy, such as it is, is to try and not tell other people what to do, as I dislike people telling me what to do. I'm sure I have fallen short of that, but I'm only human, after all, and all humans make mistakes.

Unless what people do is hurtful to others, or causes harm to others.

Eg, IMO any adult should be able to take any drugs they like, so long as the only harm is to themselves.

 

PS
Is this the one you refer to? If it is I can't see anything about saying

you'd regret spending time trying to decipher  R.Steiner. Sorry if you had that impression, but I didn't mean it like that.

On 5/29/2021 at 7:50 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

Just reading about that made me exhausted. I can't imagine myself getting that dedicated about anything at all. IMO by focusing on one thing like that I'd miss out on all the other things I've done in my life.

However, to each their own desires, and if any want to do that exclusively good for them. I just hope that they don't change their mind on their death bed and regret that they missed out on all the things they didn't do.

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/4/2021 at 10:45 PM, mauGR1 said:

i have some thoughts about TV, movies and brainwashing which i guess I'll do better to keep for myself. 

If you think tv and movies cause brainwashing, I agree about tv, but not about movies ( in a cinema ). IMO the electronic medium affects our brain in a way that images projected by light do not. I definitely think the internet is a form of brainwashing.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

a loneliness coming from the fact that scientific technology can't go there yet. 

?????????????????

People are lonely because they don't have intimate relationships or good friends. Nothing to do with science.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/4/2021 at 11:30 PM, covidiot said:

This is from United Airlines Twitter page. Not only net-zero emissions, but much faster. That's mind-blowing.

 

We're the first U.S. airline to sign an agreement for

@boomaero's ‘Overture’ (supersonic) airliners which are expected to be net-zero carbon and connect 500+ cities in nearly half the time. Taking off in 2029.

Depends entirely how they make it zero carbon. Buying trees is a nonsense as they only store carbon, and eventually they burn down or decay, releasing the carbon many years later.

Whatever their propaganda I don't believe a word of it.

They are only doing it to make lotsacash from the wealthy. Ordinary people won't be able to afford the ticket.

[Surelynot]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Depends entirely how they make it zero carbon. Buying trees is a nonsense as they only store carbon, and eventually they burn down or decay, releasing the carbon many years later.

Whatever their propaganda I don't believe a word of it.

They are only doing it to make lotsacash from the wealthy. Ordinary people won't be able to afford the ticket.

At 60,000' they will all be nearer to God.

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

PS
Is this the one you refer to? If it is I can't see anything about saying

you'd regret spending time trying to decipher  R.Steiner. Sorry if you had that impression, but I didn't mean it like that.

Thanks for clarification, but,  even if i was wrong in the interpretation of your post, i was not offended by the idea of wasting my time reading Steiner's work, which is often difficult to understand for me too.

 

In fact, i question myself very often about wasting my time, and the answers can be different from a day to another.

Anyway, i like your intellectual honesty,  and even if sometimes we don't see eye to eye, it doesn't really matter.

 

 

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If you think tv and movies cause brainwashing, I agree about tv, but not about movies ( in a cinema ). IMO the electronic medium affects our brain in a way that images projected by light do not. I definitely think the internet is a form of brainwashing.

Well, on 2nd thoughts,  i have to admit that every information we get is potentially brainwashing. 

Perhaps we choose, more or less consciously , to get brainwashed by things we have sympathy for..

Undoubtedly I was brainwashed since a very young age by the illusion of romantic love, and the hippy music of the 60s , just because i felt inclined to that.

Nowadays i pay more attention to what i choose as food for my brain, i guess some wisdom must have come in just because of aging ????

Edited June 6, 2021 by mauGR1

[thaibeachlovers]

31 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Thanks for clarification, but,  even if i was wrong in the interpretation of your post, i was not offended by the idea of wasting my time reading Steiner's work, which is often difficult to understand for me too.

 

In fact, i question myself very often about wasting my time, and the answers can be different from a day to another.

Anyway, i like your intellectual honesty,  and even if sometimes we don't see eye to eye, it doesn't really matter.

 

 

I could never accuse another of wasting time, when I'm the biggest time waster I know.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, on 2nd thoughts,  i have to admit that every information we get is potentially brainwashing. 

Perhaps we choose, more or less consciously , to get brainwashed by things we have sympathy for..

Undoubtedly I was brainwashed since a very young age by the illusion of romantic love, and the hippy music of the 60s , just because i felt inclined to that.

Nowadays i pay more attention to what i choose as food for my brain, i guess some wisdom must have come in just because of aging ????

I was brain washed to believe that women were superior beings ( have you noticed how many tv ads imply that women are perfect and men stupid oafs? ). That didn't last when I went nursing and worked with thousands of women over 2 decades. People are just people, some better and some worse than others, regardless of gender.

Edited June 6, 2021 by thaibeachlovers

[Fat is a type of crazy]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

?????????????????

People are lonely because they don't have intimate relationships or good friends. Nothing to do with science.

Loneliness isn't necessarily about having people around you but about being misunderstood.  Someone might feel that way if they felt they had made a finding in their life about something, e.g.  relating to the nature of god, but others were skeptical, indifferent or hostile.  A solution as you suggest may be to join a community of like minded folk e.g. spiritual types, new agers and hippies, religions etc. Depending if that theory matched your theory. 

[Surelynot]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I was brain washed to believe that women were superior beings

WHAT.....They aren't?.......Typing this in the toilet in case the wife sees it.

[Sunmaster]

9 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

To me yoga is physical.

That is a common misconception in the West. Yoga means "union with the Divine". The Yoga that is practiced in the West is called Hatha Yoga and focuses on the body as a way to this union, but is commonly used as a way for physical wellbeing, without the spiritual component, mostly.
But Yoga is much more than physical wellbeing. It's a way to reconnect to that part of yourself that is eternal, and makes use of meditation, contemplation, introspection, compassion, love and service to others as ways to achieve that.