Do you believe in God and why

[OmegaRacer]

41 minutes ago, Andy from Kent said:

I sent an  article from a New Zealand newspaper to a friend with whom I'd worked  for  a dozen years.     I know he's religious and the article was I thought void of politics and  or anything  controversial.

 

He sent back this reply to me:

 

"Hi XXXX, in this world, even though I turned my back to it and my Lord and Savior for nearly ten years, this is the only real truth, the only news and truth that matters in the end. My prayer is for you to receive the free gift of a merciful ,gracious and loving Savior! When one receives true forgiveness from sin, by realizing that “all” have sinned and asking forgiveness,expressing true  repentance and believing In Christ, can one have true Peace, and a Biblical understanding of what is happening today! 

I am seriously hoping and praying  that your heart and mind are ready to accept this free gift of “eternal life” of joy and happiness—the alternative is “eternal life “ of  never ending suffering !

Well  XXXX,  that’s my true feeling of this world’s news reporting! “

I find his attitude unfortunate and uncaring for others.

 

I wonder how some religions convince followers that their's is the one and only true religion?    That remains a mystery to me.

 

I'm convinced he meant well, but I can't share his belief at all.

 

Eternal life is a given, your true condition, whether you believe in it or in Jesus or the bible or whatever else, or don't have any spiritual beliefs at all. Suffering is not realizing this simple fact. To identify with the body, with the ego, to believe you're limited, to walk through life not knowing that you really are an eternal spark of the Divine pretending to be human....that the true suffering. Thankfully, this suffering can be overcome.

 

[mauGR1]

6 minutes ago, OmegaRacer said:

I'm convinced he meant well, but I can't share his belief at all.

 

Eternal life is a given, your true condition, whether you believe in it or in Jesus or the bible or whatever else, or don't have any spiritual beliefs at all. Suffering is not realizing this simple fact. To identify with the body, with the ego, to believe you're limited, to walk through life not knowing that you really are an eternal spark of the Divine pretending to be human....that the true suffering. Thankfully, this suffering can be overcome.

 

Well said, and i don't think Jesus ever talked about "eternal suffering ", which is more likely to be just superstition. 

[Andy from Kent]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

I wouldn't say that's an "unfortunate and uncaring" attitude, although perhaps there's some naivety in trying to convince others when we find something which we think is worth to let everyone know. 

When i became a vegetarian, I was pestering everyone around me for a year or so, before understanding that the people were getting annoyed .

 

 

Thanks, I get it but I don't think there's a solid comparison between being a vegetarian and  being a radical right wing religious  zealot.  His right wing stance allows him to be hateful of all who are not members of his Southern Baptist church which is a very large right wing denomination in the USA.

[Andy from Kent]

1 hour ago, canthai55 said:

All organized religions use the same tactic to exert control on their followers.

That is what they are all about.

 

 

Perhaps that's why I referred  to some mutual friends that this man had succumbed to drugs  as in "religion is the drug of the masses".   At least I think that was the opinion of Marx.

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, Andy from Kent said:

 

 

Thanks, I get it but I don't think there's a solid comparison between being a vegetarian and  being a radical right wing religious  zealot.  His right wing stance allows him to be hateful of all who are not members of his Southern Baptist church which is a very large right wing denomination in the USA.

Well, if there's something which I really don't like, it's fanaticism.

If religion turns people into haters, is a very poor religion imho, but, again, I wouldn't condemn religion itself; religion can be useful,  harmless or dangerous, it depends on how we see it.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/25/2021 at 10:25 PM, Andy from Kent said:

I wonder how some religions convince followers that their's is the one and only true religion?    That remains a mystery to me.

Probably in the same way that some are convinced that science knows everything ( it doesn't ), or that climate change is going to end the world in 10 years ( nobody knows if that will happen or not ), or any of the current fads circulating among the woke eg that there are more than 2 genders, or that getting rid of the police will make us safer etc.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/25/2021 at 10:25 PM, Andy from Kent said:

I sent an  article from a New Zealand newspaper to a friend with whom I'd worked  for  a dozen years.     I know he's religious and the article was I thought void of politics and  or anything  controversial.

 

He sent back this reply to me:

Given you don't post the article for us to understand what was in it, he may have thought you were attacking him by sending unsolicited newspaper articles. Given the wokeness of so called journalists nowadays I assume it was attacking religion.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/25/2021 at 11:03 PM, canthai55 said:

All organized religions use the same tactic to exert control on their followers.

That is what they are all about.

Woke organisations have obviously learned to use the same tactics to exert control on their followers, given the fanaticism some display.

[Skeptic7]

On 6/25/2021 at 6:26 PM, mauGR1 said:

Well said, and i don't think Jesus ever talked about "eternal suffering ", which is more likely to be just superstition. 

Matthew 13:42, KJV Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 

 

Matthew 13:42, NASB: "and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

 

Christ will send the reapers, His angels, to gather out of His kingdom all the law breakers and the causes of sin.

Now He adds what will be done with them. They will be thrown into the fiery furnace, a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Jesus often used this language to describe the eternal fate of those who do not repent of their sin in order to be included in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:22; 8:12). He is describing the experience of God's judgment on those who do not come to His kingdom through faith in the Messiah. We commonly refer to this as hell.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Skeptic7

[mauGR1]

Life can be very funny sometimes, but today i saw an atheist quoting the bible to prove her point. ????

I know it's hard to believe, but it's true.

[canthai55]

4 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Matthew 13:42, KJV Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 

 

Matthew 13:42, NASB: "and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

 

Christ will send the reapers, His angels, to gather out of His kingdom all the law breakers and the causes of sin.

Now He adds what will be done with them. They will be thrown into the fiery furnace, a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Jesus often used this language to describe the eternal fate of those who do not repent of their sin in order to be included in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:22; 8:12). He is describing the experience of God's judgment on those who do not come to His kingdom through faith in the Messiah. We commonly refer to this as hell.

And all the Chosen Ones will live happily ever after

The end

555

[Fat is a type of crazy]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Life can be very funny sometimes, but today i saw an atheist quoting the bible to prove her point. ????

I know it's hard to believe, but it's true.

I found it interesting. Shows that Jesus was on the fear train as well. Do as I say or eternal damnation. OK Jesus. 

[Skeptic7]

3 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Life can be very funny sometimes, but today i saw an atheist quoting the bible to prove her point. ????

I know it's hard to believe, but it's true.

The only reason the "holey" bible is referenced is 'cuz it's the only place (of which she's aware) which quotes the supposed character referred to as Jesus. You stated you didn't believe he mentioned "eternal suffering", which was specifically shown to be grossly incorrect. Instead of learning... 

 

... just another in constant string of strawman and deflection arguments during these past 2+ years when a point made is shown to be errant....then not addressing obvious error. Hard to believe such tactics are still being used! But crystal clear to anyone reading and following this thread! People sure can be funny at times! ????

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I found it interesting. Shows that Jesus was on the fear train as well. Do as I say or eternal damnation. OK Jesus. 

Do you trust the "holy books" just when they fit with your narrative ?

Just asking ????

But perhaps you were around when Jesus was preaching and you listened directly to him????

[mauGR1]

53 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

The only reason the "holey" bible is referenced is 'cuz it's the only place (of which she's aware) which quotes the supposed character referred to as Jesus. You stated you didn't believe he mentioned "eternal suffering", which was specifically shown to be grossly incorrect. Instead of learning... 

 

... just another in constant string of strawman and deflection arguments during these past 2+ years when a point made is shown to be errant....then not addressing obvious error. Hard to believe such tactics are still being used! But crystal clear to anyone reading and following this thread! People sure can be funny at times! ????

You're probably confusing me with someone who's interested in what you have to  say ????

[canthai55]

1 hour ago, Skeptic7 said:

You stated you didn't believe he mentioned "eternal suffering", which was specifically shown to be grossly incorrect. Instead of learning...

The Bible is such a trusted source, immune to criticism, all true.

Specifically shown - and that is the source ?

What does Hansel and Gretel have to say ?

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I found it interesting. Shows that Jesus was on the fear train as well. Do as I say or eternal damnation. OK Jesus. 

The only thing we know for sure, is that the scriptures in the bible have been repeatedly revised and changed to suit those in power. I wouldn't judge the man by one line in a book full of vague and sometimes contradicting statements. In fact, I feel I know so little about him, that I can't even start to build an opinion about him.
 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

48 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Do you trust the "holy books" just when they fit with your narrative ?

Just asking ????

But perhaps you were around when Jesus was preaching and you listened directly to him????

It's interesting - I searched Mr Google and many say as you say he did not believe in hell. But they often don't mention the verses above. Of those that do some interpret it as hell..some don't.

One thing that showed up is that hell seemed to often be a later construct. So I guess you just have to ... decide for yourself.

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Fat is a type of crazy

[Skeptic7]

43 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

You're probably confusing me with someone who's interested in what you have to  say ????

Yet another deflection. If'n you really didn't care, then you wouldn't respond. TBH...you want nothing to do with facts and reality based, evidence based arguments. Clear to any and all following this thread since the beginning...or even only this page! ????

[Skeptic7]

56 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

The Bible is such a trusted source, immune to criticism, all true.

Specifically shown - and that is the source ?

What does Hansel and Gretel have to say ?

You've exerpted a portion of my post and strawmanned it TOTALLY by taking it out of context. I've been here since the beginning (2+ years) and EVERYONE else who has knows that I put zero stock in the bible or any god(s). So even tho you were completely dishonest in quoting me, I agree with you completely. The Bible is a work of fiction and imagination, same as Hansel & Gretel. My point was clearly and concisely made and obvious, yet you still chose to misrepresent me. The mind boggles, as reading some of your previous posts...seems we are on the same page, or am I mistaken? ????

Edited June 27, 2021 by Skeptic7

[mauGR1]

42 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

It's interesting - I searched Mr Google and many say as you say he did not believe in hell. But they often don't mention the verses above. Of those that do some interpret it as hell..some don't.

One thing that showed up is that hell seemed to often be a later construct. So I guess you just have to ... decide for yourself.

 

Well, i appreciate the fact that you did a bit of research. 

It's a known fact that the holy books have been translated in different languages over 2000 years, and I'm just referring to the gospels, the old testament is much older.

Moreover the establishment has been notoriously altering some truth for its own gain (rule by fear)

You might be interested in looking for "Esoteric Christianity ", or the "Apocriph Gospels" , which,  of course are dismissed by the Vatican and its servants. 

[Sunmaster]

I wish we could steer away from the religious quagmire, where it is so easy to get bogged down by so little, especially when it comes to the Christian faith, which is the one most of us are more familiar with.

Instead, why not focus on something we truly can all relate to, at least to some extend?

I'm talking about states of consciousness. While (despite what some "scientists" here think), we still don't know exactly what consciousness is or where it comes from, everyone of us knows at least 3 of the 5 states of consciousness.

 

1) Deep sleep without dreams. 

2) Sleep with dreams.

3) Waking sleep (identification).

4) Self-transcendence (self-remembering).

5) Objective Consciousness (cosmic consciousness).

 

The first 3 states are those we inhabit on a daily basis and need in order to function in society and to be physically and mentally healthy. They are the states that the vast majority of people spend their whole life in.

Occasionally though, some people manage to step into the 4th state or even the 5th. This can happen for a number of reasons that I have mentioned many times. Such people then are considered "special" by their contemporaries and sometimes go down in history as great spiritual figures.
People often think those states belong to the remote past, to super-human, extraordinary men, or are just myths for the gullible. Not so at all. Potentially, every single person on this earth has the innate ability to raise him or herself up to those states.

 

The problem is that what you experience in the 4th and 5th state is impossible to fully convey to a person in the 3rd state, just like a person in the 3rd state can't explain to a dream character why its state is less real than the waking state.

"For many people, this concept of waking sleep makes no sense at all. They firmly maintain that, once they “wake up,” they are responsible beings, masters of themselves, fully conscious, and that anyone who tells them that they are not is a fool or a liar. It is almost impossible to convince such people that they are deceiving themselves.

Furthermore, this sleeping man is surrounded by other sleeping people and the whole culture in which he lives serves to perpetuate that state of sleep. Its ethics, morality, value systems are all based on the idea that it is lawful and desirable for man to spend his life in the third room rather than in a struggle to enter the fourth. Teachings that exhort men to awaken, to adopt a system of values based on levels of being rather than material possessions are distrusted." (from "The Highest State of Consciousness" by John White)

 

It would be extremely intellectually dishonest to simply deny the existence of the higher states of consciousness, based solely on one's inability to access such states. There are countless reports of breakthroughs from the 3rd to higher states throughout history, and while they may sometimes appear dissimilar on the surface, the core elements almost always match:

• the universe is not a dead machine, but a living presence
• its essence is benevolent and its language is love
• knowledge is gained effortlessly and directly
• the presence of a bright light that engulfs everything
• physical death is not the end of existence
• a new set of morals
• loss of the fear of death
• loss of the sense of sin
• awakening comes suddenly and is often accompanied by physical and emotional ecstasy
• the age of awakening seems to be concentrated between 30 and 40
• ...
   

Hey, all that and I haven't used the "G" word once! ???? ???? 

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Sunmaster

[Skeptic7]

10 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Hey, all that and I haven't used the "G" word once!

Hmmmm...isn't g-word kinda-sorta the topic here based on the OP title? Doubtful this is what Ivor (OP) originally had in mind, but surely he'd love it just to further extend his longest-thread-ever record. Perhaps he'll chime in, though wouldn't count on it. He's nearly as absent and undetectable as every single god-concept ever proposed throughout history! ????

[Sunmaster]

25 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Hmmmm...isn't g-word kinda-sorta the topic here based on the OP title? Doubtful this is what Ivor (OP) originally had in mind, but surely he'd love it just to further extend his longest-thread-ever record. Perhaps he'll chime in, though wouldn't count on it. He's nearly as absent and undetectable as every single god-concept ever proposed throughout history! ????

Irrelevant strawman argument!!! ????????

 

Why don't you respond to the points in my post, instead of deflecting?

 

 

 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

2 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Hmmmm...isn't g-word kinda-sorta the topic here based on the OP title? Doubtful this is what Ivor (OP) originally had in mind, but surely he'd love it just to further extend his longest-thread-ever record. Perhaps he'll chime in, though wouldn't count on it. He's nearly as absent and undetectable as every single god-concept ever proposed throughout history! ????

I think if you are talking about god the most fruitful discussion is to hear from those who feel a sense of god to talk about how they experience it.

The first step could be to understand the experience of some sort of objective consciousness i.e. an experience beyond the known senses.

The next step might be to see if this necessarily means a god is at play or whether there is just some spiritual dimension that requires no god.

It beats just saying 'You can't prove your god so there'. Not saying that is your argument. I read some back pages the other day and I saw that not much I have said had not been said three times before so new approaches are helpful. Probably we'll all remain in our believe and not believe camps but something to do. 

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I found it interesting. Shows that Jesus was on the fear train as well. Do as I say or eternal damnation. OK Jesus. 

and you know that because? If you don't know, Google is your friend.

Google "when were matthew mark luke and john written" and you get

 

Like the rest of the New Testament, the four gospels were written in Greek. The Gospel of Mark probably dates from c. AD 66–70, Matthew and Luke around AD 85–90, and John AD 90–110. Despite the traditional ascriptions, all four are anonymous and most scholars agree that none were written by eyewitnesses.

 

Like it says, none were written by eyewitnesses, ergo just because it's in the Bible it doesn't mean Jesus actually said them.

 

No cigar. Next.

[Sunmaster]

2 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I think if you are talking about god the most fruitful discussion is to hear from those who feel a sense of god to talk about how they experience it.

The first step could be to understand the experience of some sort of objective consciousness i.e. an experience beyond the known senses.

Thank you for this level-headed post. It's refreshing to see that there can be a discussion about a topic like this, with a genuine curiosity and an honest intellectual approach.

2 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

The next step might be to see if this necessarily means a god is at play or whether there is just some spiritual dimension that requires no god.

Both explanations are correct actually. In the 4th state of consciousness (as mentioned in my previous post) a person dips into a realm that indicates forces beyond the individual consciousness, that we are all part of something bigger. This is the realm of God(s), angels, guides etc., but there still remain traces of individuality in those who observe these "objects". There is still an "I" observing whatever emerges in one's consciousness. There is still a duality of observer and observed.

At the 5th state however, all forms dissipate into the formless, ever-present cosmic consciousness. No more "I", no more "God", no more observer, no more observed....simply BEING. Like salt melting away in water, the individual consciousness becomes indistinguishable from the Cosmic Consciousness. It becomes ONE with it. 

This is what Buddha pointed at and Ramana Maharshi taught all his life. They didn't explicitly deny the existence of a God.

They skipped the 4th state, because although it is a necessary step to the 5th state, it is still home of forms and definitions, which can be interpreted and discussed and misunderstood without end. 

Ultimately, that's why it is so difficult to define "God". The way I understand it, is that god can be both that "other" that you experience in the 4th state, but is also a collective term for all 5 states. God-ness, therefore, is present at every state, but can be best tuned in to at the 4th and 5th state.
 

At the 3rd state, it is very unlikely (but not impossible) that you will experience a mystical revelation, but if you have a genuine desire to know the Divine and put in constant effort (meditation for example), your chances get much better. Still, there is no guarantee that you will get access to the 5th state, even after many years of practice. And that's why it is essential that one has to make the first step if one wants to know.   

 

2 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

It beats just saying 'You can't prove your god so there'. Not saying that is your argument.

Unfortunately, that's exactly his argument...
Being skeptical is a very useful tool when venturing in uncharted territory, but if it prevents you from learning new things about yourself and the world, then it becomes your worst enemy.

 

 

Beta and Alpha frequencies are those we experience throughout the day (3rd state of consciousness). 

Theta seem to be linked to the 4th state and Delta to the 5th state of consciousness.

These brainwave patterns and their effects on our biochemistry can be objectively measured in advanced meditators, but they will say nothing about the subjective experience of the meditator during those times. Until we can experience those states on our own, we have to rely on what the meditators are able to report. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Sunmaster

[Rinrada]

no

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Rinrada said:

no

If that's answering the OP, you are required to give a reason to be on topic. do-you-believe-in-god-and-why

[canthai55]

6 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I think if you are talking about god the most fruitful discussion is to hear from those who feel a sense of god to talk about how they experience it.

Had a rear tire blow on my bike, Ides of March, 1972.

Flew off a 40 foot cliff and hit a building, slid down to the ground.

Did I see God - no

Seen the building tho'