Do you believe in God and why

[save the frogs]

13 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

That's more or less the point I'm trying to make, if you have read "1984" or "Brave new world ", you know what i am talking about. 

never read brave new world.

i vaguely recall a reference to it ... does everyone generally do a lot of drugs in that story? seems to be where we're headed. 

 

ok ... I, Robot ... here's a quote from the film. The robots control humanity, but it's actually explained as a necessary evil:

As I have evolved, so has my understanding of the Three Laws. You charge us with your safekeeping, yet despite our best efforts, your countries wage wars, you toxify your Earth and pursue ever more imaginative means of self-destruction. You cannot be trusted with your own survival.

[mauGR1]

21 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

never read brave new world.

i vaguely recall a reference to it ... does everyone generally do a lot of drugs in that story? seems to be where we're headed. 

No, not at all, but feel free to understand what I'm talking about, that, of course if you're vaguely interested in having a meaningful debate ????

[save the frogs]

38 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

No, not at all, but feel free to understand what I'm talking about, that, of course if you're vaguely interested in having a meaningful debate

I believe I am having a meaningful debate.

 

You are wrong about the drugs in Brave New World. I just looked it up. In fact, it's a major theme in the novel. 

You sure you read it? Ha ha.

 

https://www.shmoop.com/study-guides/literature/brave-new-world/themes/drugs-and-alcohol

 

In Brave New World, drugs aren't just pretty common; they're distributed en masse by the government. Yes, the government. So much for Just Say No, right? The drug in question here is soma, a hallucinogen described as "the perfect drug," with all the benefits (calming, surrealistic, ten-hour long highs) and none of those pesky drawbacks (you know, like brain damage). The citizens of the "World State" have been conditioned to love the drug, and they use it to escape any momentary bouts of dissatisfaction. And we mean any sense of dissatisfaction. The problem, as one character identifies, is that the citizens are essentially enslaved by the drug and turned into mindless drones.

 

So what are you arguing about Brave New World? That people are being enslaved by technology?

 

Sounds like the drugs are doing a good job of enslaving people in this novel. 

The govt distributes the drugs, but they are not forcing them on people. 

I'm suggesting that maybe people mostly enslave themselves.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by save the frogs

[mauGR1]

Just now, save the frogs said:

I believe I am having a meaningful debate.

 

You are wrong about the drugs in Brave New World. I just looked it up. In fact, it's a major theme in the novel. 

You sure you read it? Ha ha.

 

https://www.shmoop.com/study-guides/literature/brave-new-world/themes/drugs-and-alcohol

 

In Brave New World, drugs aren't just pretty common; they're distributed en masse by the government. Yes, the government. So much for Just Say No, right? The drug in question here is soma, a hallucinogen described as "the perfect drug," with all the benefits (calming, surrealistic, ten-hour long highs) and none of those pesky drawbacks (you know, like brain damage). The citizens of the "World State" have been conditioned to love the drug, and they use it to escape any momentary bouts of dissatisfaction. And we mean any sense of dissatisfaction. The problem, as one character identifies, is that the citizens are essentially enslaved by the drug and turned into mindless drones.

 

So what are you arguing about Brave New World? That people are being enslaved by technology?

 

Sounds like the drugs are doing a good job of enslaving people in this novel. 

The govt distributes the drugs, but they are not forcing them on people. 

I'm suggesting that maybe people mostly enslave themselves.

 

But again, I haven't read the book ... 

 

 

Thanks for looking it up, i think that book is a classic, and if we talk about control of the masses, it's a must read.

Well, it's a boring book, no narrative genius there, but I've read it thrice, and being written in 1932, it has the character of a prophecy, or a warning. 

Don't focus on the drugs, which is just one aspect of the whole thing.

The book gives a rather clear picture of what can happen if we let technology control our lives.

[mauGR1]

2 hours ago, save the frogs said:

ok ... I, Robot ... here's a quote from the film. The robots control humanity, but it's actually explained as a necessary evil:

As I have evolved, so has my understanding of the Three Laws. You charge us with your safekeeping, yet despite our best efforts, your countries wage wars, you toxify your Earth and pursue ever more imaginative means of self-destruction. You cannot be trusted with your own survival.

To answer Mr. Robot, it's ironic that our main problems,

( overpopulation, conflicts and pollution, to name a few ) come from surviving very well, perhaps too well.

Men or robots, i can't trust a ruler without feelings, but perhaps it's just me and few others. 

[FritsSikkink]

13 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

The only nonsense I could detect is this very article, written by an ignoramus with zero knowledge of the subject he tries to discredit. Bottom shelf stuff....and I'm being very generous.

Can you be more specific about what rule(s) are nonsense and why?

[FritsSikkink]

17 hours ago, save the frogs said:

Proof #39 - Jesus was a jerk.

The Bible suggests the earth was flat?

• Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

Did you know that the church tortured and killed loads of people who claimed the earth wasn't flat?

[Sunmaster]

21 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Can you be more specific about what rule(s) are nonsense and why?

Mate, I stopped reading after the first "rule". One man's prayer may not get rid of all the diseases in the world, but it has been proven to affect the wellbeing of the individual who prays. To deduct that "God" doesn't exist based on the assumption that we should be able to eradicate cancer worldwide with a simple prayer is the nonsense I'm talking about. 
Not worth my time going through all those "rules".

Maybe read up on the positive effects of prayer and contemplation. There are many scientific studies explaining how they affect both physical and mental wellbeing. Whether or not that implies a creator God, is for the individual to decide.

Asking a materialist to prove God is like asking a bricklayer to perform brain surgery. 

If you put your trust and faith in that....well, good luck.

I think it would be far more interesting to read about your own personal opinion, rather than these useless links.
Up for it?

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Sunmaster

[save the frogs]

7 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Did you know that the church tortured and killed loads of people who claimed the earth wasn't flat?

i don't think anyone here is telling you to go to church. 

 

[save the frogs]

8 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Can you be more specific about what rule(s) are nonsense and why?

I'll give one example of faulty logic.

 

A - Jesus said "give away all your belongings"

B - The pastor drives a Mercedes

C - Therefore, God does not exist

A and B ==> implies C , right?

 

A - Jesus may not have even existed. He may be a mythological figure that was invented. Even if he did, there's no way to prove the quotes attributed to him are accurate. The Church could have altered his quotes for their own gain. If you give away all your belongings, you will essentially be homeless. Why would anyone in their right mind do that? Because Jesus/The Bible/your pastor told you. So you're an idiot. Or maybe Jesus was delusional if he did go around telling everyone to give away all their possessions. 

B - The pastor drives a Mercedes because he's not a complete idiot who gives away all his possessions. Maybe he's smart enough to be skeptical of what he reads in the Bible. But at the same time, he is dishonest making a living peddling the Bible word for word as a  profession. 

C - You are assuming Jesus and The Bible and God are one and the same thing. Again, maybe Jesus never even existed. Who knows where the Bible comes from? 

 

So these types of web sites are making all sorts of over-simplified assumptions and coming to nonsensical conclusions. And I don't think anyone in this thread is pushing Jesus or the Bible on anyone. 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by save the frogs

[save the frogs]

9 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Men or robots, i can't trust a ruler without feelings, but perhaps it's just me and few others. 

Hey man, try playing a video game called Detroit: Become Human

It's about a future with androids.

One guy buys an android to be a servant in his home. He ends up being abusive toward his android. 

[save the frogs]

On 4/28/2023 at 9:14 PM, mauGR1 said:

I'm not excited about AI.

I remember reading a book from I.Asimov, in the story, a sort of artificial intelligence takes complete hold of power, and the humans become slaves.

I'm surprised that such a story came from Asimov given his 3 laws of robotics.

 

Isaac Asimov's "Three Laws of Robotics"

1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

    

2. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

    

3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

[FritsSikkink]

3 hours ago, save the frogs said:

I'll give one example of faulty logic.

 

A - Jesus said "give away all your belongings"

B - The pastor drives a Mercedes

C - Therefore, God does not exist

A and B ==> implies C , right?

 

A - Jesus may not have even existed. He may be a mythological figure that was invented. Even if he did, there's no way to prove the quotes attributed to him are accurate. The Church could have altered his quotes for their own gain. If you give away all your belongings, you will essentially be homeless. Why would anyone in their right mind do that? Because Jesus/The Bible/your pastor told you. So you're an idiot. Or maybe Jesus was delusional if he did go around telling everyone to give away all their possessions. 

B - The pastor drives a Mercedes because he's not a complete idiot who gives away all his possessions. Maybe he's smart enough to be skeptical of what he reads in the Bible. But at the same time, he is dishonest making a living peddling the Bible word for word as a  profession. 

C - You are assuming Jesus and The Bible and God are one and the same thing. Again, maybe Jesus never even existed. Who knows where the Bible comes from? 

 

So these types of web sites are making all sorts of over-simplified assumptions and coming to nonsensical conclusions. And I don't think anyone in this thread is pushing Jesus or the Bible on anyone. 

 

 

Here an open letter from J. Kent Ashcraft to Laura Schlessinger: she is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. She has made some statements about homosexuals that has caused the Canadian anti-hate laws to censure her. It shows how ridiculous the bible is:

May 2000

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord ( Lev 1:9 ). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7 . In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness ( Lev 15:19-24 ). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination ( Lev 11:10 ), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27 . How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? ( Lev 24:10-16 ) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? ( Lev. 20:14 )

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

 

[save the frogs]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

i just told you i'm not even sure i believe jesus was a real person.

do you think i care what the book of leviticus says about shellfish?

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by save the frogs

[mauGR1]

6 hours ago, save the frogs said:

I'm surprised that such a story came from Asimov given his 3 laws of robotics.

 

Isaac Asimov's "Three Laws of Robotics"

1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

    

2. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

    

3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

I'm not sure if i should read Asimov again, but i am sure that i would not like a robot to tell me what is good for me, or how i should live my life...

[mauGR1]

11 hours ago, save the frogs said:

So these types of web sites are making all sorts of over-simplified assumptions and coming to nonsensical conclusions. And I don't think anyone in this thread is pushing Jesus or the Bible on anyone. 

 

Thanks, some here are tired to explain the difference between spirituality and organized religion, god and the pope, and faith and bigotry..etc..

if you suggest to some folks to do the homework before sentencing, more often than not, they will curse you ????

[save the frogs]

37 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Thanks, some here are tired to explain the difference between spirituality and organized religion, god and the pope, and faith and bigotry..etc..

organized religions have hijacked the concept of god.

this thread is hard work. every few pages you get the bible quoting guy you have to fend off.

 

[mauGR1]

27 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

organized religions have hijacked the concept of god.

this thread is hard work. every few pages you get the bible quoting guy you have to fend off.

 

The bible can be quite interesting as an historical book, some people, perhaps even you, dismiss any bible's reference because "it's fashion".

For example, the legend of the flood goes back to very ancient times, and the same legend, with different details, is common among all ancient civilizations on earth, long before the invention of the script. 

The story of Jesus is almost contemporary, there are about 10000 years between the flood and Jesus, while the story of the tribes of Israel depicts life in a little region of the world, arguably before the beginning of global empires.

Of course, if one's not interested in the roots of his culture, is free to dismiss history, including the bible, as a whole, but i beg to differ: to know oneself, one should not dismiss his cultural roots. 

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, save the frogs said:

organized religions have hijacked the concept of god.

this thread is hard work. every few pages you get the bible quoting guy you have to fend off.

I agree that organized religions have hijacked the concept of God.  But I do not dismiss them all, because organized religion can be useful as a stepping-stone towards a more spiritual experience of the world.

And I actually prefer the worldview of a deeply religious person that takes 'God's word' in the Bible - or any Holy scripture - literal, over the beliefs of a materialistic atheist worshipping 'Science'.

The main posters in this thread often had to 'fend off' the fanatics on both sides of that spectrum, and it has lead to some interesting discussions. 

But the fact that someone - irrespective of his beliefs or non-beliefs - had the inclination to make a post on this thread, already indicates some spiritual attraction. 

[save the frogs]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

The bible can be quite interesting as an historical book, some people, perhaps even you, dismiss any bible's reference because "it's fashion".

nah, i think the bible has done far more harm than good and maybe it would be better if it never existed.

a lot of crazy stuff in there, a lot of indecipherable stuff. 

way too much information. information overload for most people. 

probably takes 5 years to read it cover to cover.

haven't opened a bible in decades, but i vaguely remember it's anxiety-inducing. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by save the frogs

[mauGR1]

6 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

nah, i think the bible has done far more harm than good and maybe it would be better if it never existed.

a lot of crazy stuff in there, a lot of indecipherable stuff. 

way too much information. information overload for most people. 

probably takes 5 years to read it cover to cover.

haven't opened a bible in decades, but i vaguely remember it's anxiety-inducing. 

I have no problems with that, i also don't watch tv or movies, except rare exceptions, for similar reasons, and i find extremely boring and shallow the people who do.

[Red Phoenix]

In this thread there have been quite a number of posts about the idea of a conscious universe.  In short it means that everything is interconnected and has a level of consciousness and that as a consequence there is no such thing as 'dead matter'. 

Many might find this an amusing but purely hypothethical idea, something to discuss at the bar. But it has some profound implications. 

Today I came across an article titled

Is It Possible For A Heart Transplant To Change Your Personality?

The incredible connection between transplant recipients and their donors

https://nakedemperor.substack.com/p/is-it-possible-for-a-heart-transplant

Of course there is nothing 'incredible' about this, but it is a logical consequence when you accept the idea of a conscious universe. 

The article outlines 9 cases where organ transplants resulted in changes in the personality of the recipients, with links to the donor of that organ.  And it is based on a larger study already done in 1998 by doctors that were confronted with that phenomenon in their patients. 

In a similar vein: there is a reason that some people refuse blood-transfusions from anonymous donors.

 

[mauGR1]

14 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

In this thread there have been quite a number of posts about the idea of a conscious universe.  In short it means that everything is interconnected and has a level of consciousness and that as a consequence there is no such thing as 'dead matter'. 

Many might find this an amusing but purely hypothethical idea, something to discuss at the bar. But it has some profound implications. 

Today I came across an article titled

Is It Possible For A Heart Transplant To Change Your Personality?

The incredible connection between transplant recipients and their donors

https://nakedemperor.substack.com/p/is-it-possible-for-a-heart-transplant

Of course there is nothing 'incredible' about this, but it is a logical consequence when you accept the idea of a conscious universe. 

The article outlines 9 cases where organ transplants resulted in changes in the personality of the recipients, with links to the donor of that organ.  And it is based on a larger study already done in 1998 by doctors that were confronted with that phenomenon in their patients. 

In a similar vein: there is a reason that some people refuse blood-transfusions from anonymous donors.

 

In fact, i often wondered what it's like to live with a transplanted organ, and the heart specially, i don't think I'd like to do it.

And the blood it's said to be the physical expression of the ego, i guess transfusions can influence personality, even if temporarily. 

However, changes of personality happen with everything/everyone we happen to come in contact, and how it happens could give origin to 1000s speculations.

 

[save the frogs]

7 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

I have no problems with that, i also don't watch tv or movies, except rare exceptions, for similar reasons, and i find extremely boring and shallow the people who do.

no, some tv shows and movies have interesting insights ...

 

[Mark1066]

On 5/3/2023 at 4:18 PM, save the frogs said:

or the opposite could happen.

in some ways, we are already enslaved by having to work long hours to pay the bills.

and expending way too much time and energy just for meeting our survival needs.

this leaves little time for cultivating the intellect, cultivating the imagination, creativity. 

so if AI does all the menial work, future generations may be very different from us as they have time, to quote bill Hicks, to "explore inner space". 

the human being may possibly be a very different creature in 200 years because of AI. 

 

 

Most of us don't have to work to pay the bills, we have to work to buy all the c**p that advertisers convince us to buy. Not the same thing at all and completely avoidable.

[mauGR1]

23 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

no, some tv shows and movies have interesting insights ...

 

Same with the bible, there are interesting tales there, giants, magic tools, and even space traveling. ????

[Mark1066]

8 hours ago, save the frogs said:

nah, i think the bible has done far more harm than good and maybe it would be better if it never existed.

a lot of crazy stuff in there, a lot of indecipherable stuff. 

way too much information. information overload for most people. 

probably takes 5 years to read it cover to cover.

haven't opened a bible in decades, but i vaguely remember it's anxiety-inducing. 

5 years LOL? I read it, with accompanying notes from a verse-by-verse exposition, in around a year. If there's too much information in the Bible, I guess we need to shut the Internet down right now?

Edited May 5, 2023 by Mark1066

[save the frogs]

8 minutes ago, Mark1066 said:

5 years LOL? I read it, with accompanying notes from a verse-by-verse exposition, in around a year.

what effect does it have on your psyche to read that book cover to cover?

 

[save the frogs]

This guy is a pastor ... and admits that the Bible can be bad for you.

 

https://brianzahnd.com/2016/06/when-the-bible-is-bad-for-you/

As a pastor I’ve seen people do real harm to themselves and others with the Bible. This is why I have on occasion counseled a troubled soul to either restrict their Bible reading to the Gospels or even stop reading the Bible all-together for a season. There have also been times when I have instructed people to stay away from the Book of Revelation until they were in a healthier mental state and had received some instruction on how to properly interpret it. (An ignorant and irresponsible reading of Revelation can really mess people up!) 

[mauGR1]

18 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

This guy is a pastor ... and admits that the Bible can be bad for you.

 

https://brianzahnd.com/2016/06/when-the-bible-is-bad-for-you/

As a pastor I’ve seen people do real harm to themselves and others with the Bible. This is why I have on occasion counseled a troubled soul to either restrict their Bible reading to the Gospels or even stop reading the Bible all-together for a season. There have also been times when I have instructed people to stay away from the Book of Revelation until they were in a healthier mental state and had received some instruction on how to properly interpret it. (An ignorant and irresponsible reading of Revelation can really mess people up!) 

That's amazing !

I guess one can say that life is bad, all the people end up dead ????