Do you believe in God and why

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

Why do you find that too coincidental to believe? 

 

There are between 100 and 200 billions stars or suns in the Milky Way galaxy, and perhaps as many as 400 billion. According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe, and possibly as many as 1,000 billion. Our galaxy, the Milky Way, is considered to be an average size galaxy.

 

We have no idea how many planets exist in the entire universe, but it seems reasonable to guess that there would be trillions of trillions.

 

Of those trillions of trillions, most would likely have no conditions suitable for life. However, if just a very tiny fraction of those trillions of trillions of planets were similar to the Earth, that could still amount to one trillion planets with the elements and conditions for life to evolve, as it has on our planet.

 

Some people, even some scientists, think it's too improbable for the first reproducing types of micro-organisms to form in a soupy sea of chemicals by chance, because no scientist has been able to create a new form of life in a laboratory, so far. The explanation of an 'Intelligent Designer' might seem more probable.

 

However, such reasoning would only apply if one ignores the fact that there are probably a trillion planets in the universe, similar to ours.

 

Imagine a bet using a huge roulette table with a thousand different balls.  The chances that all the thousand balls would fall into the  predicted, betted numbers would be very slim. A person could bet everyday for his whole life without winning once.

 

But supposing every bet with a thousand different numbers was applied simultaneously to a trillion roulette tables in different locations. The chances of a win in at least one of the roulette tables would be very high, if not certain. Okay? ????
 

Thanks for taking the time to post this. I gave it a few seconds thought about posting something similar...then threw my hands up in futile frustration. The "woo-sters" here have no use or comprehension of/for statistics, critical thinking, logic, methods, reality, etc. Deaf ears is all you'll get. They just "poo-poo" all that and go with what they "feel" or with what makes them feel good...safe...secure. Anyway, great post!

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Skeptic7

[ThaiRebound]

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

Why do you find that too coincidental to believe? 

 

There are between 100 and 200 billions stars or suns in the Milky Way galaxy, and perhaps as many as 400 billion. According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe, and possibly as many as 1,000 billion. Our galaxy, the Milky Way, is considered to be an average size galaxy.

 

We have no idea how many planets exist in the entire universe, but it seems reasonable to guess that there would be trillions of trillions.

 

Of those trillions of trillions, most would likely have no conditions suitable for life. However, if just a very tiny fraction of those trillions of trillions of planets were similar to the Earth, that could still amount to one trillion planets with the elements and conditions for life to evolve, as it has on our planet.

 

Some people, even some scientists, think it's too improbable for the first reproducing types of micro-organisms to form in a soupy sea of chemicals by chance, because no scientist has been able to create a new form of life in a laboratory, so far. The explanation of an 'Intelligent Designer' might seem more probable.

 

However, such reasoning would only apply if one ignores the fact that there are probably a trillion planets in the universe, similar to ours.

 

Imagine a bet using a huge roulette table with a thousand different balls.  The chances that all the thousand balls would fall into the  predicted, betted numbers would be very slim. A person could bet everyday for his whole life without winning once.

 

But supposing every bet with a thousand different numbers was applied simultaneously to a trillion roulette tables in different locations. The chances of a win in at least one of the roulette tables would be very high, if not certain. Okay? ????
 

Wow, you totally missed the point. I was referring to physics itself. Anyway, if you can't be bothered to look up "fine-tuned universe" and read about it to discover that I was referring to physics, then I don't know what to tell you. 

[lemonjelly]

Which god?.... there’s loads of em !!


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[Sunmaster]

5 minutes ago, lemonjelly said:

Which god?.... there’s loads of em !!


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This question has been asked and answered a dozen time in this thread. 

[Dnyy]

No, because reasons

[notmyself]

The fine tuning argument hasn't really been taken seriously for a long time because of one fatal flaw. Perhaps the Universe could only exist with the properties it has but we have no way of knowing.  

[VincentRJ]

52 minutes ago, ThaiRebound said:

Wow, you totally missed the point. I was referring to physics itself. Anyway, if you can't be bothered to look up "fine-tuned universe" and read about it to discover that I was referring to physics, then I don't know what to tell you. 

You're right. I was stuck on the term 'too coincidental'. Having now checked the term 'fine-tuned universe', I find the following argument the most persuasive, from Wikipedia.

"The fine-tuned universe argument has also been criticized as an argument by lack of imagination, as it assumes no other forms of life, sometimes referred to as carbon chauvinism. Conceptually, alternative biochemistry or other forms of life are possible. Regarding this, Stenger argued: "We have no reason to believe that our kind of carbon-based life is all that is possible. Furthermore, modern cosmology theorises that multiple universes may exist with different constants and laws of physics. So, it is not surprising that we live in the one suited for us. The universe is not fine-tuned to life; life is fine-tuned to the universe."

 

In addition, critics argue that humans are adapted to the universe through the process of evolution, rather than the universe being adapted to humans. They also see it as an example of the logical flaw of hubris or anthropocentrism in its assertion that humans are the purpose of the universe."
 

 

[ThaiRebound]

This is a great and original topic. In addition, the daily discoveries add so much to this thousands of years old debate. I expect you will get closer to the truth. 

[ThaiRebound]

5 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

You're right. I was stuck on the term 'too coincidental'. Having now checked the term 'fine-tuned universe', I find the following argument the most persuasive, from Wikipedia.

"The fine-tuned universe argument has also been criticized as an argument by lack of imagination, as it assumes no other forms of life, sometimes referred to as carbon chauvinism. Conceptually, alternative biochemistry or other forms of life are possible. Regarding this, Stenger argued: "We have no reason to believe that our kind of carbon-based life is all that is possible. Furthermore, modern cosmology theorises that multiple universes may exist with different constants and laws of physics. So, it is not surprising that we live in the one suited for us. The universe is not fine-tuned to life; life is fine-tuned to the universe."

 

In addition, critics argue that humans are adapted to the universe through the process of evolution, rather than the universe being adapted to humans. They also see it as an example of the logical flaw of hubris or anthropocentrism in its assertion that humans are the purpose of the universe."
 

 

It was the mice. Everyone knows that! Thanks for all the fish

[ThaiRebound]

I'm not a physicist, but supposedly if plank's constant or some other dimensions had been off by some tiny fraction, things couldn't get together. If there's a multiverse of 900000000000000000000000000:1 odds where physics weren't right enough, then it's very unlikely that I would exist. I exist, and therefore I have to go by that one data point

[Sunmaster]

6 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

You're right. I was stuck on the term 'too coincidental'. Having now checked the term 'fine-tuned universe', I find the following argument the most persuasive, from Wikipedia.

"The fine-tuned universe argument has also been criticized as an argument by lack of imagination, as it assumes no other forms of life, sometimes referred to as carbon chauvinism. Conceptually, alternative biochemistry or other forms of life are possible. Regarding this, Stenger argued: "We have no reason to believe that our kind of carbon-based life is all that is possible. Furthermore, modern cosmology theorises that multiple universes may exist with different constants and laws of physics. So, it is not surprising that we live in the one suited for us. The universe is not fine-tuned to life; life is fine-tuned to the universe."

 

In addition, critics argue that humans are adapted to the universe through the process of evolution, rather than the universe being adapted to humans. They also see it as an example of the logical flaw of hubris or anthropocentrism in its assertion that humans are the purpose of the universe."
 

 

Very interesting. 
I too believe that there must be life on other planets, even some sort of life forms that are not carbon based or even necessarily "material" (consciousness without a material body). We know so little of our tiny portion of the universe, yet some people think they have all the answers. 
I can see truth in this fine-tuned universe theory, and I can fit it perfectly in my worldview where there is a supreme force that permeates everything. One doesn't exclude the other.

[lemonjelly]

“God” is merely a concept that was created mostly by the Bedouin of the Middle East who at the time had no other explanations for what we now know to be laws of nature, evolution, creation of the universe etc. Science demands challenges to current theory in order to progress whereas religion abhors any challenges to its dogma.


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[Sunmaster]

54 minutes ago, lemonjelly said:

“God” is merely a concept that was created mostly by the Bedouin of the Middle East who at the time had no other explanations for what we now know to be laws of nature, evolution, creation of the universe etc. Science demands challenges to current theory in order to progress whereas religion abhors any challenges to its dogma.


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LOL Where did you get that info from?
The concept of "God" or let's just say a higher power, sprung up in every corner of the world, independently from each other, with many apparent differences, but also with many commonalities. 
Shamans have been exploring the inner worlds and their workings for thousands of years before there was anything close to resembling a religion. 

[StreetCowboy]

2 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

LOL Where did you get that info from?
The concept of "God" or let's just say a higher power, sprung up in every corner of the world, independently from each other, with many apparent differences, but also with many commonalities. 
Shamans have been exploring the inner worlds and their workings for thousands of years before there was anything close to resembling a religion. 

I think the significant feature of the Bedouin belief, passed in turn down to you and I, that there is no god but God, rather than a clamouring host of spirits in every tree and brook

Edited September 3, 2019 by StreetCowboy

[mauGR1]

5 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Thanks for taking the time to post this. I gave it a few seconds thought about posting something similar...then threw my hands up in futile frustration. The "woo-sters" here have no use or comprehension of/for statistics, critical thinking, logic, methods, reality, etc. Deaf ears is all you'll get. They just "poo-poo" all that and go with what they "feel" or with what makes them feel good...safe...secure. Anyway, great post!

 

I'm glad that eventually we found something to agree with.

But Vincent's good post doesn't prove the existence or the non-existence of a supreme architect of the universe. If an atheist could pls explain to me the concept of infinite, I would give him/her some credit.

[oldhippy]

If there is a god, he must be - by definition - all good, all knowing, all powerfull.

 

Then, why is there so much suffering and injustice in the world?

 

If we have to prove through suffering that we are worthy of him, that means that he is not in control, and does not know the future.

If he knows the future, he knows beforehand who will fail the test, therefore he is not all good.

 

Therefore there is no god.

 

PS. What I posted can be, and has been, elaborated on by philosophers in books that fill libraries. But it all comes down do these simple observations.

[oldhippy]

And if you think my post doesn't make sense:

 

Google "Cathars".

 

800 years ago, some christians (mainly in the south of France) also wondered about that suffering.

They concluded that the world was shaped by the devil, since god would never create so much suffering.

The pope organised the first crusade and got rid of them.

That's right, the first crusade was not against the muslims! As a matter of fact, the divine army also mass murdered the jews in Trier, on their way to Southern France.

[Elad]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

If an atheist could pls explain to me the concept of infinite, I would give him/her some credit.

Not sure if David Hilbert was an atheist, but he gave a nice thought experiment called "Hilbert's Grand Hotel"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert's_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel

[CMNightRider]

On 9/3/2019 at 5:21 PM, Tagged said:

What does the bible say about the universe? Life must have come from other life in the universe, right? Life travel trough space, and fertilize the earth, and finely life come along. But if that is god alone, or lifeform spread trough the whole universe, we just do not know yet, except, it is plausable it in fact come from other planets, and life travel space. 

The Bible states everything began from God, who is declared to be: “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalm 90:2). No wonder the Bible begins with the simply profound comment: “In the beginning God…”, and then adds: “…created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).

 

Which is the hardest thing to believe? That something inanimate existed from the beginning of time and that accident after major accident occurred eventually to bring us into existence? Or that we are the product of intelligence far beyond us, and that the universe, our world and humankind have come about because of the work of a powerful Creator, who has a gracious and purposeful plan for His Creation?

 

All the evidence around us, from the things we see, points to that inevitable and wonderful conclusion. There is a God in heaven and He wants a relationship with mankind, if only we will set human pride aside and listen to what He has to say.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 10:12 PM, notmyself said:

 

Where are you getting your data from? I only know of one universe but you would have to know of more in order to make such a claim. 

 

 

 

On a celestial level we know nothing, though some think we do.

Anything is possible on a creation level.

All those times I almost died on a Thai road- perhaps there is a parallel universe where I did die.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎9‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 6:09 AM, oldhippy said:

If there is a god, he must be - by definition - all good, all knowing, all powerfull.

 

Then, why is there so much suffering and injustice in the world?

 

If we have to prove through suffering that we are worthy of him, that means that he is not in control, and does not know the future.

If he knows the future, he knows beforehand who will fail the test, therefore he is not all good.

 

Therefore there is no god.

 

PS. What I posted can be, and has been, elaborated on by philosophers in books that fill libraries. But it all comes down do these simple observations.

????? Why do you think that "God" has to conform to a human condition? Does God even know that we exist? Are we the equivalent of an ant farm?

"God" is unknowable by mere humans that know nothing, but think they do in their arrogance and pride.

Why would a being that created the universe which is beyond our ability to understand give a passing glance at us busily destroying the planet we were given to live on?

Of course if God did, he/ she/ it might conclude that we were a mistake and wipe us out so something better could take over.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 10:25 PM, Tagged said:

Well, thats what nobody knows, except those who have read and understood the bible, and believe that is correct science. 

Not the Bible I read. The Bible assumes that God exists, and does not say from whence God came or how God was created.

 

The real question is not does God exist, but how there is a God at all?

[Tagged]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Not the Bible I read. The Bible assumes that God exists, and does not say from whence God came or how God was created.

 

The real question is not does God exist, but how there is a God at all?

I believe thats something you have to discuss whit the man himself, who believe he know what the bible says, and the rest of them. 

 

Jehovas have no more space in their paradise, but continue to convert more believers. Sorry we are full, but we have a waiting list, do you want to join? 

 

There must be something that created the whole thing, but from what? That is the question, and for those who believe man made bible is the answer, good for them, but quite annoying for us. Because in power, and in majority, they are quite dangerous as any other ideology on earth. Horrible we still have to deal with these kind of beliefs in our time. 

 

Life of Brian, is my bible, and it is the best piece of true life art in my time. 

[jondoe18]

After reading only the last few pages,

 I think there's money to be made ... on ads from exorcists ????

[gunderhill]

You could re title  this Do you believe  in fairy tales and get the same responses for against.

[gunderhill]

24 minutes ago, Tagged said:

There must be something that created the whole thing

Why, example if  you  cool water it "creates"  ice,  the temperature drop "created"  it, nothing more nothing mystical about it, why not the same for "everything" ie a chain of events = universe, no need for "creator"

[gunderhill]

42 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Not the Bible I read. The Bible assumes that God exists, and does not say from whence God came or how God was created.

 

The real question is not does God exist, but how there is a God at all?

And why all the other species on the planet don't have one.

[wgdanson]

On 8/12/2019 at 1:38 PM, CMNightRider said:

"I honestly feel sorry for everybody who chooses to mock God because there will be severe penalties for that person and God will make that person eat those words." 

No need to shout!

[gunderhill]

3 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

  On 8/12/2019 at 1:38 PM, CMNightRider said:

"I honestly feel sorry for everybody who chooses to mock God because there will be severe penalties for that person and God will make that person eat those words." 

And  what a lovely caring kind God you choose to "believe" in. Can't  decide which is the biggest joke here ,the God, or  your response.........nah God  still wins.

No need for   your sympathy thanks

[transam]

1 minute ago, wgdanson said:

No need to shout!

He's in sermon mode....