Do you believe in God and why

[StreetCowboy]

1 minute ago, mauGR1 said:

Yep, the emperor image was a guarantee of trust, since the first coins, minted in Lydia around 600 bc.

Silver, and later, Gold were used because easy to work, and too soft for weaponry.

Also silver and gold don’t corrode so much

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Also silver and gold don’t corrode so much

True, especially gold. The Aztecs were surprised by the Spanish crave for gold, for them it was just a fancy metal.

[VincentRJ]

9 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

“Sanction by the authority of the state is a notion alien to it”

Apparently not in modern times, when the coins of money were minted by the Roman emperors, and similarly in times since. Even the Clydesdale Bank pound notes are protected by deposits in the Bankof England

Of course not in modern times. I was addressing mauGR1's post on page 172 (post #2569).

 

I'm not talking about the last 40 years, I was talking about the last 10,000 years more or less.

Money would have not been possible without military power and religion.

 

My point being that money developed as a more practical and efficient means of exchanging goods than an earlier bartering system where, say, 3 pigs were exchanged for a cow. There is no evidence that it was a religious thing or that it was originally created by some King,  or some State with military power, as a result of some divine inspiration from God.

[mauGR1]

12 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Of course not in modern times. I was addressing mauGR1's post on page 172 (post #2569).

 

 

 

 

My point being that money developed as a more practical and efficient means of exchanging goods than an earlier bartering system where, say, 3 pigs were exchanged for a cow. There is no evidence that it was a religious thing or that it was originally created by some King,  or some State with military power, as a result of some divine inspiration from God.

Sorry, but apparently you completely missed my point.

I never said that money was a divine inspiration, i just said that money, in the very beginning, needed the endorsement of the emperor (or king), and that religion and military power were the glue to unify different tribes.

[VincentRJ]

54 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Sorry, but apparently you completely missed my point.

I never said that money was a divine inspiration, i just said that money, in the very beginning, needed the endorsement of the emperor (or king), and that religion and military power were the glue to unify different tribes.

Your statement, "Money would have not been possible without military power and religion," seems very clear to me, and that's what I'm disputing.

 

Of course, once the practice of using some form of money to exchange goods had started, for purely practical and sensible reasons, then of course subsequent kings and emperors would have endorsed it and developed it, and embellished it, and had their names carved onto coins, and so on.

 

The history of human beings using some form of 'cash' currency probably goes back to around 40,000 years when groups of hunters would have traded for the best flint weapons and other tools.

 

Of course, those first forms of money would have been nothing like the coins and paper we have today. They would have been rare objects of nature such as mother-of-pearl shells, natural copper or iron beads, perhaps from meteorites, and so on.

 

In other words, whilst Kings, Empires and armies, with their unifying religions, could probably not have existed without money, money did exist, in some form, before such Empires arose, and money would probably have continued to exist if such Empires had never formed. 

 

You seem to have got the cart before the horse. ????

[Tagged]

16 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Your statement, "Money would have not been possible without military power and religion," seems very clear to me, and that's what I'm disputing.

 

Of course, once the practice of using some form of money to exchange goods had started, for purely practical and sensible reasons, then of course subsequent kings and emperors would have endorsed it and developed it, and embellished it, and had their names carved onto coins, and so on.

 

The history of human beings using some form of 'cash' currency probably goes back to around 40,000 years when groups of hunters would have traded for the best flint weapons and other tools.

 

Of course, those first forms of money would have been nothing like the coins and paper we have today. They would have been rare objects of nature such as mother-of-pearl shells, natural copper or iron beads, perhaps from meteorites, and so on.

 

In other words, whilst Kings, Empires and armies, with their unifying religions, could probably not have existed without money, money did exist, in some form, before such Empires arose, and money would probably have continued to exist if such Empires had never formed. 

 

You seem to have got the cart before the horse. ????

Greed have always been a factor, and for those who fall out, they needed a platform to be seen, and heard. Just human nature have in strange forms formed our society and cultures. 

 

Hinduism must be the oldest cultural belief system, where we see how it evolved in to other religions, adopted, and formed in to their own cultures as needed. 

 

However, that also is just a personal belief, 

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

Your statement, "Money would have not been possible without military power and religion," seems very clear to me, and that's what I'm disputing.

 

Of course, once the practice of using some form of money to exchange goods had started, for purely practical and sensible reasons, then of course subsequent kings and emperors would have endorsed it and developed it, and embellished it, and had their names carved onto coins, and so on.

 

The history of human beings using some form of 'cash' currency probably goes back to around 40,000 years when groups of hunters would have traded for the best flint weapons and other tools.

 

Of course, those first forms of money would have been nothing like the coins and paper we have today. They would have been rare objects of nature such as mother-of-pearl shells, natural copper or iron beads, perhaps from meteorites, and so on.

 

In other words, whilst Kings, Empires and armies, with their unifying religions, could probably not have existed without money, money did exist, in some form, before such Empires arose, and money would probably have continued to exist if such Empires had never formed. 

 

You seem to have got the cart before the horse. ????

No, you seem to deliberately miss my point, and money, in form of coins started to exist with empires.

I'm not talking about sea-shells here, it would have been difficult for a Phoenician 3000 years ago to go to Greece and trying to pay food and wine with sea-shells.

Anyway, feel free to rant

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by mauGR1
grammar

[Dolmance]

Maybe certain people, possibly a majority, are genetically programmed to believe in a higher being, of which I am one.  I never talk about it, except to loved ones when they're approaching death, because it just seems so personal, and I'm afraid people will think I'm an idiot.

 

When I look at a beautiful woman, or some natural phenomena that blows me away, I think about God.  I literally remember thinking about God when I was impregnating one of my ex wives (we had a lovely son).  When I see pictures from Hubble, or hear a beautiful piece of music, or stare at some wild insect crawling across my table top and admire the architecture of its body. 

 

I know it's likely chemical, this inner dialogue with what could very well be an adult version of a child's 'imaginary friend,' but it seems to help me somehow.  And it provides a check on me, when I am inclined to turn into a scumbag, or to give in to cruel impulse.  Dante's Comedy has been like my user's manual since childhood, and the wisdom I've found in the Quran to me is breathtaking.  How's that for a jumble of beliefs?

 

Yes, I believe in God.  And I believe that there's more to us than simply turning to dust and blowing away in the wind.  Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm certainly not alone in that.  I love God, but I fear God too.  But I've never set foot inside a church or Mosque or Wat in my entire life, unless it was while sightseeing somewhere.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Dolmance
Spelling.

[VincentRJ]

17 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

No, you seem to deliberately miss my point, and money, in form of coins started to exist with empires.

I'm not talking about sea-shells here, it would have been difficult for a Phoenician 3000 years ago to go to Greece and trying to pay food and wine with sea-shells.

Anyway, feel free to rant

 

Ah! But that's not what you said. Money in the form of coins, and later paper, came into existence through the development of technology. Technology progresses despite religion, and is often hindered by religion.

 

I recall in 1960 when America began its program to land a human being on the moon, the people who claimed it was impossible and would fail, tended to be the religious people.

 

After it was successful, the people who claimed the moon landing was a fake, also tended to be religious people.

 

The extraordinary, rapid development of technology that has taken place during the past couple of centuries, and particularly during the latest century, has been greatly helped because religious authorities have been stripped of their power. Countries that have been unable to separate the power of the state from religious authority, such as Muslim countries, are in deep trouble with continuing conflict amongst themselves.

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Ah! But that's not what you said. Money in the form of coins, and later paper, came into existence through the development of technology. Technology progresses despite religion, and is often hindered by religion.

 

I recall in 1960 when America began its program to land a human being on the moon, the people who claimed it was impossible and would fail, tended to be the religious people.

 

After it was successful, the people who claimed the moon landing was a fake, also tended to be religious people.

None

The extraordinary, rapid development of technology that has taken place during the past couple of centuries, and particularly during the latest century, has been greatly helped because religious authorities have been stripped of their power. Countries that have been unable to separate the power of the state from religious authority, such as Muslim countries, are in deep trouble with continuing conflict amongst themselves.

none of what you describe would have been possible without unifying tribal societies with religion and military power, carrot and stick in other words.

there are some good books out there, i suggested to you one , a few posts ago.

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

none of what you describe would have been possible without unifying tribal societies with religion and military power, carrot and stick in other words.

 

I accept that early forms of religion could have helped to unify people into larger groups, and I can empathize with people who lived thousands of years ago, who had no modern scientific knowledge of their surroundings, and who could be terrified by natural events which they had no control over, such as lightning strikes which could instantly kill someone, followed by a huge roar a hundred times louder than the roar of a Lion. Or the eruption of a volcano or an earthquake which could cause unbelievable destruction.

 

Some people in this thread have expressed a belief in God because they think it's reasonable that there is a greater, or higher power than us.

 

That there are greater powers than us, especially in relation to people in the past, seems very obvious to me, and I see nothing odd or strange in ancient peoples trying to find an explanation for such mysterious and powerful events, and deducing that such events are controlled by 'someone' whom they describe as a God, such as the God of Thunder, or the God of Fire, or the God of Water, and eventually the God of Everything (monotheism).

 

However, we now have better explanations for thunder and lightning. But feel free to live in the past if you want. ????

 

On the issue of military power, it's interesting that one of the earliest and most peaceful of civilizations did not appear to use military power to control its populace.

 

The Harappan or Indus Valley civilization in Eastern India, or what is now Pakistan, is an example of a peaceful civilization with well-organized cities, significant trading, no evidence of military warlords, and little evidence of any system of money. The trading, which was very significant, appears to have been based largely on a bartering system, but with some evidence of a type of money.

 

"There is no evidence that either priests or kings ruled the cities.
Rulers within the cities of the Indus Valley governed through the control of trade and religion rather than military strength. There is no indication of warfare or weapons that may have been used." 
 

https://www.allabouthistory.org/indus-valley.htm
 

[Skeptic7]

Anyone else think this has gone totally ???

 

 

[VincentRJ]

2 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Anyone else think this has gone totally ???

 

 

It's not off topic. The topic is, 'Do you believe in God and why'. I'm doing my best to explain the why. ????

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

However, we now have better explanations for thunder and lightning. But feel free to live in the past if you want. ????

 

On the issue of military power, it's interesting that one of the earliest and most peaceful of civilizations did not appear to use military power to control its populace.

 

The Harappan or Indus Valley civilization in Eastern India, or what is now Pakistan, is an example of a peaceful civilization with well-organized cities, significant trading, no evidence of military warlords, and little evidence of any system of money. The trading, which was very significant, appears to have been based largely on a bartering system, but with some evidence of a type of money.

 

"There is no evidence that either priests or kings ruled the cities.
Rulers within the cities of the Indus Valley governed through the control of trade and religion rather than military strength. There is no indication of warfare or weapons that may have been used." 
 

https://www.allabouthistory.org/indus-valley.htm
 

What did suggest you that "i'm living in the past" talking about history is a bit different from that.

Your quoting the Harappan civiliation is interesting, but in fact a deflection; bartering was perfect between close neighbours, but if you need to exchange wheat, or apples, or wood, travelling long distances would be a huge problem, another problem is the storage of perishable items.

That's just a couple of reasons because empires invented money, so they could build nice palaces and pay smart people to do researches on natural phenomenons, among other things.

in more recent times, they could also build public schools and give free knowledge to children of poor families, hospitals for the sick etc.

On another note, i read long ago about the vitrified rocks found in the Harappan area, those stones, i guess, are still unexplained, but some interesting hypothesis has been made about it.

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, Skeptic7 said:

Anyone else think this has gone totally ???

 

 

Are you upset because we're not talking about God, so you can stick your confused emoticons on every post ?

[55Jay]

25 minutes ago, Dolmance said:

Maybe certain people, possibly a majority, are genetically programmed to believe in a higher being, of which I am one.

It's programming alright, but not genetic. More accurately, post-birth conditioning and indoctrination.  Quite often at the hands of the people we, as small children, a captive audience, must rely upon for our basic needs.

 

There are other paths to religion beyond feeling inadequate or unfullfilled, such as fitting in to a social group.  Shotgun coversion in order to marry a finance and be accepted by his/her family.  Traumatic events.  Drug/alcohol/sexual orientation recoveries.  Incarcerated prisoners - another captive audience.  Calamities in 3rd world countries can be a conversion windfall.

 

The common thread, and cautionary tale, is these folks are exploitable in some way.  Kids don't have a choice.  In later life, it's the ones at rock bottom in some way, emotional strife, who are most vulnerable to offers without full disclosure.   Ironic that it can wind up feeling like you dun a deal with the devil.  Tough divorce procedures for some, can get nasty.

 

Genetic?  Naw.  All in your head.  Literally.  Sadly, foolish western society, USA and christianity in particular, still has its arm twisted into equating "Being Religious" with "Being a Good Person". 

[55Jay]

^ Except for incarcerated prisoners.  Many join a religion for the slight gain in freedoms/movement.  As well as easy points at the parole board.  Again.  Religion = Good Person.  Prisoners get a good laugh at how easy that is. 

Edited September 18, 2019 by 55Jay

[giddyup]

3 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

^ Except for incarcerated prisoners.  Many join a religion for the slight gain in freedoms/movement.  As well as easy points at the parole board.  Again.  Religion = Good Person.  Prisoners get a good laugh at how easy that is. 

Right, "finding god" is mandatory once you hit the cells.

[mauGR1]

16 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

^ Except for incarcerated prisoners.  Many join a religion for the slight gain in freedoms/movement.  As well as easy points at the parole board.  Again.  Religion = Good Person.  Prisoners get a good laugh at how easy that is. 

 

12 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Right, "finding god" is mandatory once you hit the cells.

Have it ever occurred to you that something like the 10 commandments are just a general directive for a peaceful co-habiting ?

Would you really like it if your money gets stolen, your wife raped, your children killed ?

 

I have not much sympathy for organised cults of any sort, yet i have a hard time understanding the hate.

Like almost everything, religion has a bright and a dark side, is it so difficult to understand that ?

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

Are you upset because we're not talking about God, so you can stick your confused emoticons on every post ?

Not upset...but the topic IS '...God and Why', NOT 'history of money', which was another ridiculous claim in a thread chock full o them. You've been thoroughly schooled and set straight on that by VincentRJ. Are you upset about that? 

 

My use of the confused emoticon is exclusively for posts which are ridiculous. Or are you upset because of this...or both? ????

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Not upset...but the topic IS '...God and Why', NOT 'history of money', which was another ridiculous claim in a thread chock full o them. You've been thoroughly schooled and set straight on that by VincentRJ. Are you upset about that? 

 

My use of the confused emoticon is exclusively for posts which are ridiculous. Or are you upset because of this...or both? ????

Not sure i am more surprised by your ignorance or your lack of comprehension, or both, but i can assure you that it leaves me unruffled.

[55Jay]

Just now, mauGR1 said:

 

Have it ever occurred to you that something like the 10 commandments are just a general directive for a peaceful co-habiting ?

Would you really like it if your money gets stolen, your wife raped, your children killed ?

 

I have not much sympathy for organised cults of any sort, yet i have a hard time understanding the hate.

Like almost everything, religion has a bright and a dark side, is it so difficult to understand that ?

No, it's not difficult to understand at all.  Nor is the fact I was talking to someone else regarding an assertion about genetic propensity, and gave some examples. 

 

But I do enjoy the crusader's sense of balance and smarmy suggestion that failing to list the good with the bad means the errant commentor must be ignorant that such high-minded concept exist.
 

Back to sipping your "Oh gawd, this is so beneath my level of brilliance" cup of coffee.

 

Have a nice day.

[VincentRJ]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

What did suggest you that "i'm living in the past" talking about history is a bit different from that.

Did you notice the smiley? ????

 

But seriously, don't all major religions have their origins in the past, prior to the development of the methodology of science? There are lots of modern 'sects' of course, such as Scientology, and 'niche' religions with just a few followers that claim to believe in all sorts of weird things, but there are no modern, major religions, with the possible exception of 'Climate Change Alarmism'. ????

Your quoting the Harappan civiliation is interesting, but in fact a deflection; bartering was perfect between close neighbours, but if you need to exchange wheat, or apples, or wood, travelling long distances would be a huge problem, another problem is the storage of perishable items.

 

Yet the Harappans appear to have overcome those problems. Their trade was extensive.

 

"There was an extensive maritime trade network operating between the Harappan and Mesopotamian civilizations. Harappan seals and jewelry have been found at archaeological sites in regions of Mesopotamia, which includes most of modern-day Iraq, Kuwait, and parts of Syria. Long-distance sea trade over bodies of water, such as the Arabian Sea, Red Sea and the Persian Gulf, may have become feasible with the development of plank watercraft that was equipped with a single central mast supporting a sail of woven rushes or cloth."
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldcivilization/chapter/harappan-culture/

That's just a couple of reasons because empires invented money, so they could build nice palaces and pay smart people to do researches on natural phenomenons, among other things.

 

You still believe that empires invented money? How did they become empires before they invented money? Think about it.

[giddyup]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

 

Have it ever occurred to you that something like the 10 commandments are just a general directive for a peaceful co-habiting ?

Would you really like it if your money gets stolen, your wife raped, your children killed ?

 

I have not much sympathy for organised cults of any sort, yet i have a hard time understanding the hate.

Like almost everything, religion has a bright and a dark side, is it so difficult to understand that ?

I understand the hypocrisy of criminal violent offenders "finding god" to sucker parole boards into early releases. No hate involved, just amazement at the gullibility of some people.

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Did you notice the smiley? ????

 

But seriously, don't all major religions have their origins in the past, prior to the development of the methodology of science? There are lots of modern 'sects' of course, such as Scientology, and 'niche' religions with just a few followers that claim to believe in all sorts of weird things, but there are no modern, major religions, with the possible exception of 'Climate Change Alarmism'. ????

 

 

 

Yet the Harappans appear to have overcome those problems. Their trade was extensive.

 

"There was an extensive maritime trade network operating between the Harappan and Mesopotamian civilizations. Harappan seals and jewelry have been found at archaeological sites in regions of Mesopotamia, which includes most of modern-day Iraq, Kuwait, and parts of Syria. Long-distance sea trade over bodies of water, such as the Arabian Sea, Red Sea and the Persian Gulf, may have become feasible with the development of plank watercraft that was equipped with a single central mast supporting a sail of woven rushes or cloth."
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldcivilization/chapter/harappan-culture/

 

 

 

You still believe that empires invented money? How did they become empires before they invented money? Think about it.

Well, science and religion have their origin in the past, it may amaze you that many scientists of the distant and not so distant past were monks and priests.

I think the Harappans disappear about 4000 yrs ago, the first coins are dated about 2700 yrs ago, no doubt that before that, trade by bartering would have been rather complicated, yet feasible.

"empires invented money" would be a rather simplistic dogma, i would rather say that, as travel and trade became bigger, money was invented to facilitate said trade.

It is a fact that the first coins, and even the modern ones carry the image of a high authority, which guarantees for its validity.

[mauGR1]

23 minutes ago, giddyup said:

I understand the hypocrisy of criminal violent offenders "finding god" to sucker parole boards into early releases. No hate involved, just amazement at the gullibility of some people.

That's true, i am afraid, but i don't think that many would believe that a criminal can become a good person just reading the gospel a couple of times.

That said, also very hard jails or death penalties don't seem to be a good deterrent.

Edited September 18, 2019 by mauGR1
typo

[giddyup]

5 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

That's true, i am afraid, but i don't think that many would believe that a criminal can become a good person just reading the gospel a couple of times.

That said, also very hard jails or death penalties seem to be a good deterrent.

Death penalties only deter the criminal being executed, there's no evidence that it reduces the number of murders, same with hard jails. Some of the jails in the US are the toughest in the world, doesn't seem to deter repeat offenders.

Edited September 18, 2019 by giddyup

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Death penalties only deter the criminal being executed, there's no evidence that it reduces the number of murders, same with hard jails

oops, my bad, i wanted to type "don't seem to be a good deterrent".... Post edited.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 7:01 PM, Sunmaster said:

There are a few...Taoism, Zen, and like you say, Buddhism. Maybe more...I'm not sure.

"Religions exist, just as everything we can think of exists, in the human mind. Fantasies exist, but only in the mind of some people. Religions exist, but only in the mind of some people."

 

Perhaps so. A more philosophical person or Zen master might argue that everything is created by the mind. ????

We are what we think. If we did not "think" we'd still be the forebears of apes/ humans lurking in the forest ( perhaps the planet would have been better off if it were so ).

We choose ( unless brainwashed ) what we believe, influenced by our parents, family and environment.

For the vast majority, religion is not a big deal, but for a minority it is everything.

Personally, I think everyone believes in something outside our understanding, though some choose to supress it, but even the most hardened atheist may discover a higher power when confronted with imminent death. However, very few of us have been in that situation since WW2.

[thaibeachlovers]

23 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

However, we now have better explanations for thunder and lightning. But feel free to live in the past if you want. ????

How about the many unexplainable things that happen many times to most of us?