Point Of Law ?

[thaiturkey]

I'm holding a Chanote (Nor Sor 3 Gor) , given as guarantee for a private loan.   The land is owned by a Thai company.

The Chanote has recently been cancelled, and the land subdivided, behind my back.

IS THIS A CRIMINAL OR CIVIL MATTER?    Maybe both? 

[ezzra]

It's all depend on the circumstances of why you''re holding the Chanot, if it's against a loan and the loan is correctly documented backed by said chanot and a Kai-Fak arrangements are in place, ( Kai-Fak is where the land is temporarily morged to the lander witnessed by the land department) than what they did is called in thai Yok-Yak, meaning an act of swindle, and it's a criminal matter, but if you're only holding said Chanot without any of the above than you might have a problem there and more information needed to ascertain where exactly do you stand...

Edited April 18, 2019 by ezzra

[ricklev]

A mortgage needs to be registered at the land office and noted on the chanote.  Sounds like you have an unsecured loan.  

 

https://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/thailand-civil-code-part-2.html

 

Starts at Section 702, but you might have a civil case depending on how the loan contract is written.   Assuming you did not register it.

Edited April 18, 2019 by ricklev

[metisdead]

Moving to the Real Estate forum.

[Kwasaki]

26 minutes ago, thaiturkey said:

I'm holding a Chanote (Nor Sor 3 Gor) , given as guarantee for a private loan.   The land is owned by a Thai company.

 

Nor Sor 3 Kor is not a (Chanote) it is land 'awaiting' a full title deed.

This type of land may be sold, transferred, or mortgaged in the same manner as land with freehold title deed (Chanote) as long as it is transform to that title to a freehold title deed (Chanote) in the future.

If the land has been subdivided the company is trying to make selling the land more affordable I suspect.

Go and talk to Thai company to see if they will still honour your loan and get confirmation of it.

If there's a problem get a lawyer involved.  

[thaiturkey]

the loan was made to an old Thai friend who died last year.  The loan agreement was handwritten by him on a standard printed form, and witnessed by my close friend.   The Chanote and annexed docs were produced the following week. (he told me the docs. enabled me to claim the land without going to court!)  It is registered to a company controlled by his family.  Unfortunately there is no direct linkage between the Chanote set and the loan agreement.

His Estate Administration comes to court next month.

No interest has been paid for last 4 years, but was paid during first year.

Edited April 18, 2019 by thaiturkey

[ricklev]

You can make a claim against the estate, possibly.  There is a statute of limitations about how long you have to make the claim. Best check with lawyer I guess.

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by ricklev

[mahjongguy]

"... there is no direct linkage between the Chanote set and the loan agreement. "

 

There could not be a legal linkage between them. As a foreigner you could not have been granted a mortgage lien against the property, because in case of a default the chanote could not be put in your name. So, the property as collateral was effectively bogus even if deception was not intended.   

 

The loan itself is probably legit even though unsecured. You may need to sue the estate to recover the loan.

[ThomasThBKK]

12 hours ago, mahjongguy said:

"... there is no direct linkage between the Chanote set and the loan agreement. "

 

There could not be a legal linkage between them. As a foreigner you could not have been granted a mortgage lien against the property, because in case of a default the chanote could not be put in your name. So, the property as collateral was effectively bogus even if deception was not intended.   

 

The loan itself is probably legit even though unsecured. You may need to sue the estate to recover the loan.

I think it can be done as you can also get a chanote in a will, you just have to liquidate it within 12 months.

 

i would get a good litigation lawyer asap.

[mahjongguy]

4 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

I think it can be done as you can also get a chanote in a will, you just have to liquidate it within 12 months.

 

i would get a good litigation lawyer asap. 

Yes, it would be immensely helpful to file a suit before probate is closed.

 

In the case where a foreigner inherits a property, I don't know if the Land Office actually puts their name on the chanote. I was thinking that they hold it in a type of escrow in order to enforce the one year limit. However they handle it, the fact remains that property cannot be used as collateral for a loan from a foreigner.

 

I hope this thread serves as a reminder that physical possession of the chanote paper is meaningless. It's an old trick, really. All the property owner needs to do is file a police report that the paper was lost and then request a new copy from the Land Office. The same idea is true for vehicle books. Borrow money from some naive person, let them hold the blue or green book, then get a replacement from Land Transport.   

[ThomasThBKK]

It can still be a criminal offense to make such a fake report at the police.


In my experience thais need to get lawyer letters asap, it's the only thing that scares them somehow [emoji848][emoji23] can work wonders to change a thais mind...

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[baansgr]

On 4/18/2019 at 1:13 PM, thaiturkey said:

the loan was made to an old Thai friend who died last year.  The loan agreement was handwritten by him on a standard printed form, and witnessed by my close friend.   The Chanote and annexed docs were produced the following week. (he told me the docs. enabled me to claim the land without going to court!)  It is registered to a company controlled by his family.  Unfortunately there is no direct linkage between the Chanote set and the loan agreement.

His Estate Administration comes to court next month.

No interest has been paid for last 4 years, but was paid during first year.

Lawyers fees are not cheap by any means. Depending how much the loan was it may be easier and cost effective to write it off. The family/company may not even be aware that your friend borrowed money and cancelled the Chanote as couldnt find the one you are holding, so you should approach them first to sew if an agreement can be made.

[ThomasThBKK]

yeah but a letter doesn't cost much, you can still decide to not go into litigation if it's not worth it.

[baansgr]

10 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

yeah but a letter doesn't cost much, you can still decide to not go into litigation if it's not worth it.

About 5k minimum but its the next step that starts to be expensive. What gets me is lawyers can never give a breakdown of their fees....its a stupid number plucked from the air 50k, 70k 150k...with no reasoning behind it. Thats every single lawyer I have contacted it dealt with, and thats a lot of lawyers. Thats why if its only a small loan the OP is better to forget it.

[ThomasThBKK]

About 5k minimum but its the next step that starts to be expensive. What gets me is lawyers can never give a breakdown of their fees....its a stupid number plucked from the air 50k, 70k 150k...with no reasoning behind it. Thats every single lawyer I have contacted it dealt with, and thats a lot of lawyers. Thats why if its only a small loan the OP is better to forget it.

Never had a lawyer that doesn't charge hourly rate and gives an exact breakdown on the invoice of how he spent time.

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