Anger over Brexit sparks new grassroots drive for Scottish independence

[aright]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

How can Scotland have a deficit when it has no borrowing powers?

Sent from my SM-G975F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

As a proportion of GDP the Scottish deficit was more than three times that of the UK as a whole.

The deficit in Scotland was 8% including the North Sea, and excluding it was 9%. This compares to a deficit of 2.3% for the UK as a whole.

Excluding revenue and spending from the North Sea the Scottish deficit has been larger than the UK’s as a proportion of GDP for at least the last 20 years.

https://fullfact.org/economy/how-big-scotlands-deficit-compared-uk-whole/

In 2016 Scotland had the highest public spending deficit in the EU beating Greece to top spot. UK taxpayers in the rest of the UK had to help plug the gaps.

[nauseus]

11 hours ago, AlexRich said:

Like Singapore and Vietnam are independent but also in ASEAN. A club that you join, and you give up some things in return for benefits. 

 

The big big lie was that everything that the UK do is determined by the EU ... yet laws, tax, currency, interest rates, budgets, military ... are determined by the UK? And the second big lie was that you have to leave the EU to trade with other countries ... even though countries like Italy and Germany do enormous business in places like China? And Scottish whisky is sold in every country in the world, even Saudi Arabia (albeit black market), despite being an EU member.

Give us a link to this "big lie", please.

[aright]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

You could be right about that - if a majority of MPs from other countries in the UK reject our wishes, then we are on our plums once more. At least it will put to bed that ridiculous comparison with Brexit.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I think it's more likely MEP's in member states will reject your wishes.

A requirement for joining the EU is an applicant must have an economic deficit of 3% or less.

Last year Scotland had a deficit of 6.8% and it was estimated that their stand alone deficit would be 10-12%.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, aright said:

As a proportion of GDP the Scottish deficit was more than three times that of the UK as a whole.

The deficit in Scotland was 8% including the North Sea, and excluding it was 9%. This compares to a deficit of 2.3% for the UK as a whole.

Excluding revenue and spending from the North Sea the Scottish deficit has been larger than the UK’s as a proportion of GDP for at least the last 20 years.

https://fullfact.org/economy/how-big-scotlands-deficit-compared-uk-whole/

In 2016 Scotland had the highest public spending deficit in the EU beating Greece to top spot. UK taxpayers in the rest of the UK had to help plug the gaps.

Assuming the above was correct, why then does England want to keep a hold of Scotland? We are clearly a financial burden and in these times of austerity, that money could be better spent on people who would be grateful for it. 

[RuamRudy]

16 minutes ago, aright said:

I think it's more likely MEP's in member states will reject your wishes.

A requirement for joining the EU is an applicant must have an economic deficit of 3% or less.

Last year Scotland had a deficit of 6.8% and it was estimated that their stand alone deficit would be 10-12%.

One step at a time. Currently, despite the majority of our MPs since 2015 being from the SNP, our wishes have been thwarted by MPs from another country. Once we step out from the burden we are currently under, we can then address our future ourselves. 

 

It is truly perplexing how a country such as Scotland, blessed with a multitude of natural resources, should be so economically challenged. It is almost as if someone is trying to pull the wool over our eyes. 

 

 

[sanemax]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

Assuming the above was correct, why then does England want to keep a hold of Scotland? We are clearly a financial burden and in these times of austerity, that money could be better spent on people who would be grateful for it. 

   England does not have a hold on Scotland , we are a United Kingdom .

Do you have a passport ?

Look on the front of it , it says the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Norther Ireland .

England and Scotland are a United Kingdom and England does not have "hold" of Scotland 

[RuamRudy]

23 minutes ago, aright said:

I think it's more likely MEP's in member states will reject your wishes.

A requirement for joining the EU is an applicant must have an economic deficit of 3% or less.

Last year Scotland had a deficit of 6.8% and it was estimated that their stand alone deficit would be 10-12%.

I prefer not to get into a willy waving contest but when this argument comes up time and again, and people refuse to believe that the UK government might be complicit in lying to everyone so that we don't rock the boat, sometimes the only thing to do is to wave willies. 

 

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, sanemax said:

   England does not have a hold on Scotland , we are a United Kingdom .

Do you have a passport ?

Look on the front of it , it says the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Norther Ireland .

England and Scotland are a United Kingdom and England does not have "hold" of Scotland 

Of course it does - you have 85% of the MPs. Just take a look at this disaster of a Brexit nonsense that is being foisted upon us - Scotland and Scottish MPs have made it crystal clear that we want nothing to do with it. English MPs decide the direction of the UK. If the rest agree, that is a bonus but ultimately it is irrelevant. 

 

 

[sanemax]

14 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Of course it does - you have 85% of the MPs. Just take a look at this disaster of a Brexit nonsense that is being foisted upon us - Scotland and Scottish MPs have made it crystal clear that we want nothing to do with it. English MPs decide the direction of the UK. If the rest agree, that is a bonus but ultimately it is irrelevant. 

 

 

   85 % of the population live in England , thats why 85 % of M.P.s come from England .

Scotland also has its own Parliament , England doesnt have its own Parliament .

Scottish MPs can vote on things that only effect England , English MP's cannot vote on things that only effect Scotland .

  The U.K voted as a whole about Brexit , London also voted to Remain .

You just have to accept what the majority of the UK want  

[Jip99]

4 minutes ago, sanemax said:

   85 % of the population live in England , thats why 85 % of M.P.s come from England .

Scotland also has its own Parliament , England doesnt have its own Parliament .

Scottish MPs can vote on things that only effect England , English MP's cannot vote on things that only effect Scotland .

  The U.K voted as a whole about Brexit , London also voted to Remain .

You just have to accept what the majority of the UK want  

 

 

Ah........... but that would require adherence to democracy.

 

 

That is where it seems to go pear-shaped.

[Nigel Garvie]

4 minutes ago, sanemax said:

   85 % of the population live in England , thats why 85 % of M.P.s come from England .

Scotland also has its own Parliament , England doesnt have its own Parliament .

Scottish MPs can vote on things that only effect England , English MP's cannot vote on things that only effect Scotland .

  The U.K voted as a whole about Brexit , London also voted to Remain .

You just have to accept what the majority of the UK want  

We are perfectly happy for England to have it's own parliament, in fact I only wish they would. "Scottish MPs can vote on things that only effect England", I agree this is obviously wrong but would be solved by the above. The burden of the army of middle England bigots on British politics has long skewed politics to the right, now and in many elections where Scotland has essentially had no say. Surprised so many of us simply want to leave, the UK? It is like the US where the voters of central US (Dumbfu#ckistan as it is known) gave us a man so crass and vulgar that he sh#ts in a golden toilet.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Nigel Garvie said:

We are perfectly happy for England to have it's own parliament, in fact I only wish they would. "Scottish MPs can vote on things that only effect England", I agree this is obviously wrong but would be solved by the above. The burden of the army of middle England bigots on British politics has long skewed politics to the right, now and in many elections where Scotland has essentially had no say. Surprised so many of us simply want to leave, the UK? It is like the US where the voters of central US (Dumbfu#ckistan as it is known) gave us a man so crass and vulgar that he sh#ts in a golden toilet.

Does EVEL not preclude Scottish MPs voting on solely English matters? I know some lickspittle Scottish Tories have been voting on solely English matters, but I was under the impression that their votes were discounted.

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, sanemax said:

   85 % of the population live in England , thats why 85 % of M.P.s come from England .

Scotland also has its own Parliament , England doesnt have its own Parliament .

Scottish MPs can vote on things that only effect England , English MP's cannot vote on things that only effect Scotland .

  The U.K voted as a whole about Brexit , London also voted to Remain .

You just have to accept what the majority of the UK want  

But this suggests that we are a homogenous country and that the demographics are relatively uniform. The reality, as shown in this map, is very different - the UK is not a single country of like-minded, evenly distributed individuals.

 

 

I have no desire to see the will of the English ignored, but I object to it being thrust on my unwilling country. And this is the problem - the UK cannot be equitable for all parts. 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by RuamRudy

[aright]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Of course it does - you have 85% of the MPs. Just take a look at this disaster of a Brexit nonsense that is being foisted upon us - Scotland and Scottish MPs have made it crystal clear that we want nothing to do with it. English MPs decide the direction of the UK. If the rest agree, that is a bonus but ultimately it is irrelevant. 

 

 

What sort of convoluted logic is that. You complain Scotland only has 15% of the MP's in Westminster yet you want to join a Union where you will have less than 1% of the MEP's

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

But this suggests that we are a homogenous country and that the demographics are relatively uniform. The reality, as shown in this map, is very different - the UK is not a single country of like-minded, evenly distributed individuals.

 

I have no desire to see the will of the English ignored, but I object to it being thrust on my unwilling country. And this is the problem - the UK cannot be equitable for all parts. 

 

 

Your map shows that Scottish people want SNP politicians representing them in the European Parliament and the Welsh want the Welsh party representing them.

   Quite understandable

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, aright said:

What sort of convoluted logic is that. You complain Scotland only has 15% of the MP's in Westminster yet you want to join a Union where you will have less than 1% of the MEP's

[aright]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Why are you conflating self governing power with parliamentary representation? Self governing power in Scotland only applies to Scotland on Scottish issues, it's not worth anything on issues which solely relate to the EU as per the current status for the UK. However if self governing power is of prime importance to Scotland why not get your independence and remain independent. In that way you would be 100% self governing. 

Within the EU I would suggest you would have the same parliamentary influence as Greece or Cyprus.

[nauseus]

20 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I wonder what the criteria are for determining these proportions of 'self governing power'?

 

Whatever, they will change soon for any EU member. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, aright said:

Why are you conflating self governing power with parliamentary representation? Self governing power in Scotland only applies to Scotland on Scottish issues, it's not worth anything on issues which solely relate to the EU as per the current status for the UK. However if self governing power is of prime importance to Scotland why not get your independence and remain independent. In that way you would be 100% self governing. 

Within the EU I would suggest you would have the same parliamentary influence as Greece or Cyprus.

Now we are onto a different argument which is currently being thrashed out on the Brexit threads ad nauseum. If the multitude of words spilt across this forum over the past 4 years has failed to convince you of the relative benefits of EU membership, it is highly unlikely that I will be able to do so, so on that we will just need to agree to disagree.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I wonder what the criteria are for determining these proportions of 'self governing power'?

 

Whatever, they will change soon for any EU member. 

 

 

The attached graphic shows those powers that are devolved and those that are reserved. There is no reason to suspect that those currently residing in Westminster would be transferred to Brussels upon independence from the UK and ascension to the EU. 

 

 

[sanemax]

31 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

What are the "self governing powers" that Scotland would like to have in an independent Scotland , that you dont have now whilst in a Union with England ?

[RuamRudy]

Just now, sanemax said:

What are the "self governing powers" that Scotland would like to have in an independent Scotland , that you dont have now whilst in a Union with England ?

See above.

[aright]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Now we are onto a different argument which is currently being thrashed out on the Brexit threads ad nauseum. If the multitude of words spilt across this forum over the past 4 years has failed to convince you of the relative benefits of EU membership, it is highly unlikely that I will be able to do so, so on that we will just need to agree to disagree.

No problem! I have repeatedly said Scotland must be allowed to leave if that is the will of the people. What day did you say Nicola was going to call for a referendum?

[sanemax]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

See above.

OK, what would you like to change about them ?

[evadgib]

An interesting thread. If the English get their own parliament, UK gets a new one & we replace FPTP with PR and reduce the stranglehold of old Etonians we might all resume getting on with each other again ????

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

OK, what would you like to change about them ?

I would like that all these issues were decided in Scotland by a government elected by the people of Scotland. 

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, aright said:

No problem! I have repeatedly said Scotland must be allowed to leave if that is the will of the people. What day did you say Nicola was going to call for a referendum?

 

Sturgeon calls for Brexit and independence referendums

 

"Ms Sturgeon... spoke about the prospect of another Scottish independence referendum, indicating that "the latter half" of 2020 would be the "right time" for a new poll. "

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I would like that all these issues were decided in Scotland by a government elected by the people of Scotland. 

So, you would be happy the same as it is now, you dont want anything changed , you just want a Government elected by the Scottish people to keep it the same as it already is ?

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

So, you would be happy the same as it is now, you dont want anything changed , you just want a Government elected by the Scottish people to keep it the same as it already is ?

I am afraid you have lost me there...

[sanemax]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

I am afraid you have lost me there...

You havent named anything that you would like to be different , different to what it is now

From the list you provided , which names "Broadcasting , Defense , Immigration , Equal opportunities" among other things .

  An independent Scotland would have the power to change those things , what things would you change ?

   You would like a Scottish government to make its own rules , which rules would you change ?