TM 30

[lkv]

1 hour ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

You would be putting your next extension at risk.  Once you are non-compliant, and have been warned, you are skating on thin ice in my book.  I don't believe it is cheaper either.  No TM30 = No 90 day report (at my nearest Immigration Office).

Thin ice = 800 baht at CW or 1,600 in some other places.

 

OP could very well not interact with Immigation ever for extensions.

 

O-A gives a permission of stay of 12 months at a time. Towards the expiry of the visa itself, he gets a multiple reentry permit in the airport (or at some other exit point), where it's unlikely to be hassled for TM30's, exits and comes back. That will stretch his stay for 2 years. After that, he travels back home for a new O-A or extends.

 

800 baht fine in 2 years or more seems small in the grand scheme of things. Even in 1 year if he choses to extend after year one.

Edited April 28, 2019 by lkv

[Rally123]

It's all down to interpretation. A bit like the National Anthem and the meanings within..

[MeePeeMai]

5 minutes ago, lkv said:

O-A gives a permission of stay of 12 months at a time. Towards the expiry of the visa itself, he gets a multiple reentry permit in the airport, where it's unlikely to be hassled for TM30's, exits and comes back. That will stretch his stay for 2 years. After that, he travels back home for a new O-A or extends.

You've described me to a tee as I am now on my 2nd year of my O-A visa.  If I do not wish to leave the country every 90 days, then I am required to report to Immigration every 90 days right? 

 

While visiting Immigration for my 90 day report they always check the computer to see if I have left the country or stayed anyplace away from home.   If I am missing a TM30 then they will not complete my 90 day report until my TM30 is completed (no online reports are allowed at this office).

 

I do not plan to return to the US for another O-A since it is cost prohibitive to do so (no place to stay, no vehicle to use etc...) so I don't plan on making things more difficult for myself when I'm up for my next extension in that office.

 

So are you suggesting that I just skip my 90 day reports too?

 

 

[lkv]

7 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

So are you suggesting that I just skip my 90 day reports too?

 

 

If you are in a place that does not allow online 90 day reporting, it does make the TM30 situation more complicated.

 

I'm not suggesting you should skip your 90 day reports, because you would incur a 2,000 baht fine in 2 years, which is about 83 baht per month.

Edited April 28, 2019 by lkv

[MeePeeMai]

10 minutes ago, lkv said:

If you are in a place that does not allow online 90 day reporting, it does make the TM30 situation more complicating.

 

I'm not suggesting you should skip your 90 day reports, because you could incur a 2,000 baht fine in 2 years, which is about 83 baht per month.

The fine is for EACH 90 day report missed... so 4 fines per year for missing my 90 day reports.  Add another 4 to 8  fines for missing TM30 's in the two year period and it adds up to much more than 83 baht per month (according to my math).

 

Not to mention that any future extension application(s) might well be denied for breaking the rules after already having been warned and gaming their system.

Edited April 28, 2019 by MeePeeMai

[lkv]

As far as I am aware there should only be one fine, but then again it can be twisted in any way by these corrupt IO's.

 

Or....when you go to do your 90 day report, if they want to link it to TM30, explain again it's not your responsability but the landlord's, and if they don't allow you to do a 90 day report, call the Immigration hotline and complain that you are not allowed to do a 90 day report.

Edited April 28, 2019 by lkv

[MeePeeMai]

6 minutes ago, lkv said:

As far as I am aware there should only be one fine, but then again it can be twisted in any way by these corrupt IO's.

 

Or....when you go to do your 90 day report, if they want to link it to TM30, explain again it's not your responsability but the landlord's, and if they don't allow you to do a 90 day report, call the Immigration hotline and complain that you are not allowed to do a 90 day report.

 

I appreciate your suggestions and your help, I really do but I have already tried explaining to them that it's not my responsibility and that I have no control over my landlord and his whereabouts or schedule and that he is very difficult to get ahold of.

 

They just smile and say that if it's not done then I cannot proceed any further with my 90 day report and that it's a requirement etc.  I don't really want to make trouble for my landlord or have him pay any fines because then he'll just double my rent or ask me to move out (because it's too much trouble renting to a farang and I wouldn't blame him if he did).

 

I have no intention of complaining as this would only bring about more problems in the long run.  

 

I actually don't mind the 90 day reports, it's the TM30's that I hate and give me so much trouble.  ????

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[lkv]

You could also "move" to Bangkok for 2 years and do your 90 day reports online from "there", then "move back" to where you are normally staying.

 

Anyways, this is why more and more people are getting sick and tired and relocate out of Thailand, if they can. 

 

The reality is, you are trying to avoid trouble, but you should have a plan B.

 

What if next year you don't make the cut because of new regulations imposed?

 

What if next year it's 90 day report, TM30 and TMxx? Or these IO's become more corrupt than they already are?

 

It should be understood that these are non immigrant visas, and this administration seems to reinforce the idea of a temporary stay. Because that's all they are, extendable temporary stays, some longer some shorter.

Edited April 28, 2019 by lkv

[MeePeeMai]

15 minutes ago, lkv said:

You could also "move" to Bangkok for 2 years and do your 90 day reports online from "there", then "move back" to where you are normally staying.

 

Anyways, this is why more and more people are getting sick and tired and relocate out of Thailand, if they can. 

 

The reality is, you are trying to avoid trouble, but you should have a plan B.

 

What if next year you don't make the cut because of new regulations imposed?

 

What if next year it's 90 day report, TM30 and TMxx? Or these IO's become more corrupt than they already are?

 

It should be understood that these are non immigrant visas, and this administration seems to reinforce the idea of a temporary stay. Because that's all they are, extendable temporary stays, some longer some shorter.

 

Yes I agree with everything you said.  I have thought about "moving" to Bangkok or another area and skirting the system but I am not a good liar and I feel better about myself if I just try to follow the rules, lay low and keep off their radar.  

 

I do have a plan B, C and D.  I always do because that's just my nature and I think that everyone here should have alternate plan ready to execute when that day comes.   

[Rally123]

51 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

I don't really want to make trouble for my landlord or have him pay any fines

Why not? He doesn't seem to have any concerns for you? He's probably laughing about it right now.

[marcusarelus]

52 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

I appreciate your suggestions and your help, I really do but I have already tried explaining to them that it's not my responsibility and that I have no control over my landlord and his whereabouts or schedule and that he is very difficult to get ahold of.

 

They just smile and say that if it's not done then I cannot proceed any further with my 90 day report and that it's a requirement etc.  I don't really want to make trouble for my landlord or have him pay any fines because then he'll just double my rent or ask me to move out (because it's too much trouble renting to a farang and I wouldn't blame him if he did).

 

I have no intention of complaining as this would only bring about more problems in the long run.  

 

I actually don't mind the 90 day reports, it's the TM30's that I hate and give me so much trouble.  ????

 

You said you don't go back home and don't like airplanes and travel so why would you have to do a TM30? 

[Maestro]

 

 

 

1 hour ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

 

 

51 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

I appreciate your suggestions and your help, I really do but I have already tried explaining to them that it's not my responsibility and that I have no control over my landlord and his whereabouts or schedule and that he is very difficult to get ahold of...

What control does the owner (landlord) have about your arrivals at the residence you are renting from him and of which you are the "house-master" as defined by section 4 of the Immigration Act, ie the chief possessor in your capacity as tenant.

 

 

 

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Section 4 : In this Act :

...

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of
owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

 

 

[MeePeeMai]

21 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

You said you don't go back home and don't like airplanes and travel so why would you have to do a TM30? 

 

I don't like flying out of the country unless I have to.  I don't mind flying domestic but even if flying domestic, I still have to do a TM30 when I get home (if I stayed in a hotel without the having the wife there to check in).

[MeePeeMai]

19 minutes ago, Maestro said:

What control does the owner (landlord) have about your arrivals at the residence you are renting from him and of which you are the "house-master" as defined by section 4 of the Immigration Act, ie the chief possessor in your capacity as tenant.

 

 

 

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Ha!  That's funny!  Try explaining that one to the Immigration Officers here.  I know what you are saying but that is not the way it is done here.  The owner of the house is the one (and only one) who is the chief possessor in their eyes.  You won't change their minds about that.  I am sure.

[MeePeeMai]

37 minutes ago, Maestro said:

What control does the owner (landlord) have about your arrivals at the residence you are renting from him and of which you are the "house-master" as defined by section 4 of the Immigration Act, ie the chief possessor in your capacity as tenant.

 

 

 

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Just to clarify -

 

My wife and I tried that one already.  We explained that we we were the house-masters (or chief possessors) since we have a 12 month lease so therefore we should be able to take care of the TM30's ourselves.  They just said no, we need the paperwork from the house owner, not the house renter. Everytime we question them about anything they refuse to budge.  

 

I also thought that if we turned in a POA from the house owner that we could self report until such time that we moved or the landlord revoked the POA but that is not the case.  We need one every time.

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

So are you suggesting that I just skip my 90 day reports too?

Video yourself trying to do your 90 day report, with the Immigration officers clearly identifiable.

Post it on facebook, repeat with a new video every 90 days.

You've publicly done your 90 day report, they chose not to record it in their records.

Job done.

Edited April 28, 2019 by BritManToo

[lkv]

You cannot exit this catch 22 unless:

 

A. You bribe them, which is anyway what they are looking for.

B. You use an agent that bribes them.

C. You use the online reporting in another region and skirt the system

D. If you don't like C, you pay the fine every time.

E. If you don't like D, you harass the owner all the time until he gets tired and stops renting to you or other foreigners. (It has happened).

F. To avoid D & E, you might bend your own principles and do C.

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by lkv

[lkv]

10 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Video yourself trying to do your 90 day report, with the Immigration officers clearly identifiable.

Post it on facebook, repeat with a new video every 90 days.

You've publicly done your 90 day report, they chose not to record it in their records.

Job done.

No cos he thinks that might have repercussions and make the IO's upset.

 

It's equal to threatening them with calling Immigration hotline and doing so. I don't think the hotline will chase the owner but rather instruct the IO to accept the 90 day report.

 

She will lose some face, but so be it.

 

If next time she refused an extension I'd call the hotline again, until she gets the message and backs off, which she probably will.

Edited April 28, 2019 by lkv

[MeePeeMai]

10 minutes ago, lkv said:

You cannot exit this catch 22 unless:

 

A. You bribe them, which is anyway what they are looking for.

B. You use an agent that bribes them.

C. You use the online reporting in another region and skirt the system

D. If you don't like C, you pay the fine every time.

E. If you don't like D, you harass the owner all the time until he gets tired and stops renting to you or other foreigners. (It has happened).

F. To avoid D & E, you might bend your own principles and do C.

Yea you are probably right.  Thanks.

[Maestro]

MeePeeMai, yours is an interesting quandary in which you find yourself, the basic problem being the immigration official's refusal to accept that for the implementation of section 38 of the Immigration Act you are the house-master as defined in section 4 of the Act.

 

If I were in your situation, I would send the TM.30 notification by mail with a short covering letter addressed to "the chief of the Immigration Bureau, ...", something like this:

 

Quote

 

 

 

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In compliance with section 38 of the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 and in accordance with the procedure laid out in the Public Handbook published by the Immigration Bureau I herewith enclose the form TM.30 NOTIFICATION FROM FOR HOUSE-MASTER, OWNER OR THE POSSESSOR OF THE RESIDENCE WHERE ALIEN HAS STAYED in my function as the house-master of the residence where I am staying as defined by section 4 of the Immigration Act.

 

     References:

• Immigration Act:
  Thai: www.immigration.go.th/read?content_id=58b4f72454b2f90a80136447
  English translation: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwNib_gx9zYEQWRtTnNwdGl6d1k
• Public Handbook: The notification of the house-master, the owner or the possessor of the residence, or the hotel manager where an alien has stayed:Thai: https://www.immigration.go.th/citizen_manual/guid_th13.pdfEnglish: https://www.immigration.go.th/citizen_manual/guid_en13.pdf

 

 

Nota bene, no immigration office has the legal authority to refuse acceptance of the TM.30 by mail. Send it by EMS, which is traceable, and you have evidence of having fulfilled your legal obligation.

 

[Rally123]

14 hours ago, Maestro said:

no immigration office has the legal authority to refuse acceptance of the TM.30 by mail. Send it by EMS, which is traceable, and you have evidence of having fulfilled your legal obligation. 

Well how come some offices still do it if it's illegal? Korat once stopped reporting by mail whilst mine was in transit. On the actual report date I phoned them. They said come in. I did on the next day and an officer said 'if it's in the mail basket we won't fine you'. Otherwise........

[Maestro]

43 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

Well how come some offices still do it if it's illegal?...

Criminal abuse of authority.

[MeePeeMai]

15 hours ago, Maestro said:

MeePeeMai, yours is an interesting quandary in which you find yourself, the basic problem being the immigration official's refusal to accept that for the implementation of section 38 of the Immigration Act you are the house-master as defined in section 4 of the Act.

 

If I were in your situation, I would send the TM.30 notification by mail with a short covering letter addressed to "the chief of the Immigration Bureau, ...", something like this:

 

 

Nota bene, no immigration office has the legal authority to refuse acceptance of the TM.30 by mail. Send it by EMS, which is traceable, and you have evidence of having fulfilled your legal obligation.

 

Thanks, I'll try this.  Being that it is in English might be a problem, but I'll try it.  Thanks.

[Navin]

Can someone please share his experience…..
If the house owner goes personally to submit the TM 30 at immigration div 1 in Chaengwattana, how long does it take for them to enter the data in the system ? Can he wait and get the acknowledgment receipt ?
Once I gt the acknowledgment receipt from the owner, can I personally go for my 90 days reporting the same or next day ? Or try to sumbit online ?
Any information on the above will be quite helpful please.
Thank you