Water Only Fasting...Should you do it / How should you do it.

[WaveHunter]

This is a subject I'm very passionate about, and I know a lot of other people have an interest in it.  There  is so much mis-information and half truths associated with it, especially on YouTube.  Most of it is disingenuous BS designed only for self-serving purposes by so-called "health gurus", so I thought this thread would be a good one to start for the community.

 

My interest in metabolic sciences started over twenty years ago and it took me a long time to wade through all the mis-information and half-truths, as well as learn the basic underlying sciences which in itself is a daunting task since it is all in flux, and what was true one day becomes outdated the next.

 

So, I just thought I'd start this thread, not only to share what I know but to exchange information, and also to debate varying points of view.  All that I ask is if you have a point of view to express, you make sure it is science-based.  "He said, she said" anecdotal accounts are NOT science based.  Third-party interpretations by lay people or entertainment celebrities of original research (i.e.: Dr. Oz, Bro-Science forums, etc)  are also misleading sources of facts.  PubMed and scientific journals, textbooks, and books by noted experts researchers are where I get my information, and should be your source as well.

 

People who just jump into fasting because they saw some silly YouTube video with a click-bait title like, "How I lost 15 pounds in a week on a water fast" or "The results of my 42 day fast" are in for a big disappointment!  Don't do it!  Before you even contemplate doing a fast you should educate yourself in the basic underlying metabolic sciences. 

 

Understanding the underlying science on a useful level is not really rocket-science, but it is essential to know what's going on in your body while in the fasted state before you actually attempt to fast.  That knowledge acts like a "road map" to your fast.  You would not go on a long road trip in your car to an unfamiliar destination without a road map, and you shouldn't go on a fast without one as well.

 

I regularly fast (72 hour fast monthly, and 5 day fast once or twice a year) and experience no pain or discomfort (except on day 2, and that happens on every fast like clockwork!). The reason my fasts run smoothly and are effective is very simple. I am "keto-adapted" and I have science-based expectations of what the fast can and can not achieve for me  

 

What I mean by "keto adapted" that is that I have trained my body and brain to use "ketones" efficiently.  Merely getting into ketosis is not enough.  Your body has to know what  to do with those ketones!  Our ancient ancestors had this ability innately when they had to go long periods of time with no food. Their survival depended on it. Without it, we wouldn’t be here today!   However, In our modern world of supermarkets, refrigerators, and fast foods, we’ve lost the ability to use ketones efficiently because most people now simply graze on food from the time they wake up until the time to go to bed.

 

So, the body and brain must be re-trained to again be able to use ketones efficiently. The metabolic pathways of fat & carbohydrates metabolism must be re-defined. THAT is what keto-adaptation is all about, and it’s an essential pre-requisite to successful fasting. 

 

In short, if you attempt to do a fast without being keto-adapted, your fast will fail and you will be in for a whole world of hurt and negative health consequences like muscle loss, slowed metabolism, etc, which can take weeks to recover from.  So, this is serious business!  However, if you have become keto-adapted, a long fast will be like a walk in the park, with no ill effects, little if any muscle loss, and only positive health benefits. 

 

It takes time and patience to become keto adapted.  Like anything, you need to know what you are doing and patiently do it in stages and not just jump into a fast, any more than you would enter a running marathon without first spending months to train for it! 

 

It's not that hard but it does take time.  For instance, you start out by doing intermittent fasting, then you progress to one-meal-a-day, then a 24 hour fast, progressing to 48 hours, and then 72 hours.  It takes months to become completely keto-adapted but  you will experience pay-back along the way, and the ultimate state of keto-adaptation will be well worth the effort!  If you are not patient enough to ramp up in stages, you should not even consider doing a multi-day fast...period!

 

Also, you need to have reasonable expectation of what a fast can, and can not achieve. There are plenty of genuine, even miraculous health benefits to becoming “keto adapted”, and to doing a multi-day fasts . The real truth is that becoming keto-adapted should be your REAL goal, and fasting should only be the means to achieving it.

 

One of the most important benefits of fasting is autophagy. Don’t rely on Guru-speak when reviewing this important topic. Most of what the "gurus have to say is nothing but mis -information and half-truths presented to you for self-serving purposes!  Autophagy is REAL SCIENCE, and the leading researcher in the field, Ohsumi, was awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine for his work in 2016, and the ongoing research is redefining our understanding of the metabolic basis of not just weight loss but more importantly, diabetes type 2, many forms of cancer, and diseases like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s!  It should be understood from truly science-based sources, not these dopey gurus on YouTube.  For me, autophagy is the primary reason that I fast.

 

If you simply think fasting is a way to lose weight fast, you’re not ready for fasting; you need to learn more. If you think a fast will magically detox your body of environmental toxins, think again!   Fasting is not some magic bullet; rather it is very strongly science-based and should be respected as such. Take the time to understand the underlying science, not the fantastical unfounded claims touted by all the health gurus whose only interests are self-serving ones.

 

Another point I think it's important to be clear about is the optimal length of a fast.  IMO, there is absolutely no reason to fast any longer than 5 days, and for most intents and purposes, really only 72 hours.  All of these silly videos on YouTube of people claiming to fast for weeks or even months on end are just plain nonsense!  The only situations where fasts longer than five days are necessary are for a morbidly obese patient with life threatening metabolic syndromes like advanced stage Diabetes type-2.  For all the rest of us, such a long fast is unnecessary and counterproductive.  IMO, 72 hours is the "sweet spot" for most people.

 

[Denim]

I often water fast.

 

I call it ' going on a bender '

[CharlieH]

Inflammatory posts removed.

[FracturedRabbit]

I often water fast.
 
I call it ' going on a bender '

A puerile response to an informative post, typical TV behaviour.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[OneEyedPie]

9 minutes ago, FracturedRabbit said:

A puerile response to an informative post, typical TV behaviour.

Informative?  Maybe.

 

Complete and utter lunacy to deprive oneself of water for trendy fads?  Absolutely.  

 

Even a monkey wouldn't deprive itself of water so why would a human?

 

How far would you get before severe health complications set in in this weather that's averaging 38 to 40°C during the day.  Absolute ding dong post and nothing I'd want to associate myself with other than to condemn this nonsense in no uncertain terms.

 

Sorry but I can't say nothing else on this occasion, OP.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by OneEyedPie

[geoffbezoz]

1 minute ago, OneEyedPie said:

Informative?  Maybe.

 

Complete and utter lunacy to deprive oneself of water for trendy fads?  Absolutely.  

 

Even a monkey wouldn't deprive itself of water so why would a human?

 

How far would you get before severe health complications set in in this weather that's averaging 38 to 40°C during the day.  Absolute ding dong post and nothing I'd want to associate myself with other than to condemn this nonsense in no uncertain terms.

 

Sorry but I can't say nothing on this occasion, OP.

Homosapiens have been around max 200,000 years

Primates evolved a few million years prior to that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_primates

 

Perhaps that is why , as you say, a Monkey would not deprive themselves of water.  Homosapiens appear to have a lot of learning still to do.  However , as we know, there are those that are in denial regarding evolutionary instincts.

[OneEyedPie]

You haven't answered the crucial question, WaveHunter.

 

How far would you get before severe health complications set in in this weather that's averaging 38 to 40°C during the day?

[cooked]

12 minutes ago, OneEyedPie said:

Informative?  Maybe.

 

Complete and utter lunacy to deprive oneself of water for trendy fads?  Absolutely.  

 

Even a monkey wouldn't deprive itself of water so why would a human?

 

How far would you get before severe health complications set in in this weather that's averaging 38 to 40°C during the day.  Absolute ding dong post and nothing I'd want to associate myself with other than to condemn this nonsense in no uncertain terms.

 

Sorry but I can't say nothing else on this occasion, OP.

 

 

Being in a (hopefully) BLISSFUL state of ignorance apparently doesn't prevent some people from chipping in.

Whereas there are people that will fast without water (dry fast) this guy is talking about fasting only consuming water. (water fast) 

[FracturedRabbit]

15 minutes ago, OneEyedPie said:

Informative?  Maybe.

 

Complete and utter lunacy to deprive oneself of water for trendy fads?  Absolutely.  

 

Even a monkey wouldn't deprive itself of water so why would a human?

 

How far would you get before severe health complications set in in this weather that's averaging 38 to 40°C during the day.  Absolute ding dong post and nothing I'd want to associate myself with other than to condemn this nonsense in no uncertain terms.

 

Sorry but I can't say nothing else on this occasion, OP.

 

 

The clue is in the title "water fasting".  The only think you ingest is water, as much as you like. Black coffee is OK too!

[OneEyedPie]

Thanks for clarifying.  

[cooked]

At the age of 71 I don't think I'll be fasting for longer than 24 hours in the future, any loss in muscle mass is difficult to recuperate with older people even though I am ready for resistance training. 

Having reached my weight loss plateau after 6 months on Keto, all biometrics OK apparently. I plan on a monthly 24 hour fast (water fast) in the future, although I am slowly coming round to the idea that intermittent fasting is the way to go. I do watch my calories and consuming 50 gm of macademia nuts put me up to my calory level at midday already, so next meal tomorrow morning.

[edgarfriendly]

what about tea?

 

black/green

[cooked]

2 minutes ago, edgarfriendly said:

what about tea?

 

black/green

Both tea and coffee contain caffeine, personally I would go for apple cider vinegar and ginger tea. 

[Denim]

3 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

A puerile response to an informative post, typical TV behaviour.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Another  ' life and soul of the party ' member of TV forum spreading a bit more of his excess misery.

[villagefarang]

I usually follow an IF schedule of 20/4.  I have done a few 72 hour fasts and several 48 hour fasts.  I have lost 10 kilos and put on muscle by lifting weights.  I feel better and look better, all without out any of the study and research the OP insists is absolutely essential.

 

I find the attitude used to express his opinions and the insistence that things must be done his way, very off-putting.  I say people are free to do as they wish as long as they don't force their views on others.  I get a very dopey guru vibe reading these kinds of posts.

[Psimbo]

I just lurve those faddy Merkins.

[WaveHunter]

6 hours ago, OneEyedPie said:

Informative?  Maybe.

 

Complete and utter lunacy to deprive oneself of water for trendy fads?  Absolutely.  

 

Even a monkey wouldn't deprive itself of water so why would a human?

 

How far would you get before severe health complications set in in this weather that's averaging 38 to 40°C during the day.  Absolute ding dong post and nothing I'd want to associate myself with other than to condemn this nonsense in no uncertain terms.

 

Sorry but I can't say nothing else on this occasion, OP.

 

 

A water fast is a fast  where you consume only water; you do not abstain from drinking water.  Don't be so obtuse for god's sake LOL!

[WaveHunter]

5 hours ago, cooked said:

At the age of 71 I don't think I'll be fasting for longer than 24 hours in the future, any loss in muscle mass is difficult to recuperate with older people even though I am ready for resistance training. 

Having reached my weight loss plateau after 6 months on Keto, all biometrics OK apparently. I plan on a monthly 24 hour fast (water fast) in the future, although I am slowly coming round to the idea that intermittent fasting is the way to go. I do watch my calories and consuming 50 gm of macademia nuts put me up to my calory level at midday already, so next meal tomorrow morning.

Unlike a calorie-restricted diet where you can lose significant muscle, loss of muscle during a water fast is negligible due to ketosis.  Unlike a ketogenic diet, fasting results in release of growth hormone, which results in any muscle loss being compensated for once you resume eating with a little bit of resistance training in the gym.

 

Many people in your age group who have advanced stage diabetes have successfully fasted for weeks in order to control or even reverse diabetes, and they've done it with negligible muscle loss (Google Dr. Jason Fung).

[WaveHunter]

6 hours ago, OneEyedPie said:

You haven't answered the crucial question, WaveHunter.

 

How far would you get before severe health complications set in in this weather that's averaging 38 to 40°C during the day?

I just completed a five day water fast here in Pattaya (ending last Sunday), and as part of this fast I did daily 6km runs in the afternoon with no ill effects from hot outdoor temperatures in that range. 

 

Being in a fasted state has no effect on the body's ability to maintain a homeostatic thermogenic state as long as you stay well hydrated.

 

Normally when I have fasted in the past I stayed sedentary since that is the conventional wisdom, but on this fast I wanted to see the effects of moderate exercise on improving resting metabolic rate while fasting, and it worked out well. 

 

The body has a lot more resilience and ability to adapt than we realize!  Itt actually thrives on stresses like heat, cold, ...and being in a fasted state ????

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

3 hours ago, villagefarang said:

I usually follow an IF schedule of 20/4.  I have done a few 72 hour fasts and several 48 hour fasts.  I have lost 10 kilos and put on muscle by lifting weights.  I feel better and look better, all without out any of the study and research the OP insists is absolutely essential.

 

I find the attitude used to express his opinions and the insistence that things must be done his way, very off-putting.  I say people are free to do as they wish as long as they don't force their views on others.  I get a very dopey guru vibe reading these kinds of posts.

I'm not going to get into a silly debate with you.  This thread is for people who are interested in discussing the SCIENCE underlying fasting and keto-adaptation, not simply dieting to loose a few pounds.

 

If that's not you, and you have nothing positive or constructive to contribute to the thread...that's fine. 

 

I'm sure that ignorance can be bliss for some people.  That's not meant to be mean-spirited; there's nothing wrong with just following someone else's prescribed diet to loose a few pounds if that's all you are interested in.  However, this thread is NOT about dieting; it is about health issue that go far beyond loosing a few pounds, and some people want to explore this subject on a deeper, more scientific basis.  This thread is for those kind of people.

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by WaveHunter

[Destiny1990]

17 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I'm not going to get into a silly debate with you.  This thread is for people who are interested in discussing the SCIENCE underlying fasting and keto-adaptation. 

 

If that's not you, and you have nothing positive or constructive to contribute to the thread...fine.  I'm sure that ignorance can be bliss for some people.  Other people want to explore things a little deeper.  This thread is for those kind of people.

 

After all that water No libido loss?

 

[Nyezhov]

we are all gonna die, whether we like it or not and wheter we try to avoid it or not.

 

So I am dying on 7 days a week of food, with maybe a prime rib here and there

[Destiny1990]

Sounds too me that you’re overdoing the fasting.

what ur height and weight?

[dotpoom]

I come from a country where "Hunger Strikes" by prisoners are a true and tried and traditional method of achieving a certain result. I never heard of them doing any good for a person's body.

PS. They were made to drink water to keep them from dying.

Edited May 8, 2019 by dotpoom

[orang37]

The passionate proselytizing of one's own "physical practices" ... most often involving unusual self-discipline, even asceticism ... by those without (visible) medical and scientific credentials as ... barely camouflaged panaceas ... restorative elixirs ... etc.

 

Occurs frequently on these forums; such hosanna's of personal triumph over aging and various complaints most often contain a thinly veiled implication that: "since it worked for me, it will work for you."

 

I find them interesting; I also see them, on one level as manifestations of what I have come to call "Farang Grandiosity Syndrome" (FGS).

 

I find I respect the fact that WaveHunter has worked out his own system of health optimization, and, I don't doubt it has improved the quality of his life.

 

The problem I have is that these personal recipes don't take into account genetic/metabolic variation, and the unique context/history of the individual.

 

This human body I inhabit has a remarkable ability to resist cold, to swim happily in water that would turn most people blue ... probably genetic. An ice-bath that would leave me in a state of ecstasy would probably kill other people.

 

imho, rigorous research (long-term, control group) on the whole "keto" thing is not there yet.

 

... to your health ... mens sana in corpore sano ...

 

~o:37;

 

[orang37]

5 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

This thread is for people who are interested in discussing the SCIENCE underlying fasting and keto-adaptation, not simply dieting to loose a few pounds.

 

Great, please lead the way into ... the science.

 

~o:37;

[Bob12345]

18 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

My interest in metabolic sciences started over twenty years ago and it took me a long time to wade through all the mis-information and half-truths, as well as learn the basic underlying sciences which in itself is a daunting task since it is all in flux, and what was true one day becomes outdated the next.

And what is your educational background that gave you the abilities to wade through the mis-information and half-truths?

Where did you get your PhD in nutritional science and on what subject exactly?

 

Or are you just a member of a Facebook-group about this subject where everyone is saying "autophagy" (which is about cellular biology, not about health, nutrition, or weight loss) and people blindly follow Jason Fung (a kidney disease doctor with no training or education in nutritional science)? 

 

I smell the Dunning-Kruger effect very strongly, but really hope you got a PhD in nutritional science and can proof me wrong.

[seancbk]

I started intermittent fasting back in February.  The reason I started was simple, I am 185 cm tall (6 foot) and my waistline had grown to 34" (and edging closer to 35-36 I guess). 
I was invited to a black tie event and was looking forward to being able to dress smart.  The only problem was my evening dress trousers had a 32" waist.  I thought maybe they had some adjustment or I'd be able to squeeze into them, but when I tried there was no way I was going to be able to do them up.   I was forced to wear a regular black suit which was fine as there were other people also not wearing proper black tie, but the fact I couldn't fit into my own clothes was a big alarm.   

So I decided to do something about it.  First step was to cut out all bread, pasta and rice.  Then I started cutting down on beer carbs by switching from Beer Lao or Asahi to only drinking San Mig Light (I've now gone further and switched to just drinking Soda water and the occasional Vodka Soda).

Then I started intermittent fasting on the OMAD plan (OMAD - One Meal a Day).   I only eat one meal per 24 hours.   

I get up between 8 am and 9 am and have a cup of black coffee (Nescafe Red Cup Instant), then I drink a large glass of water with a berroca tablet.   Throughout the day I only drink water.   Then around 5:30 I cook myself a meal which consists of at least 250-300 g of protein, either pork (grilled) or chicken (poached), a head of broccoli (steamed) or other green vegetables (either steamed or lightly sauteed).  I also take a multivitamin and mineral supplement with my meal.   

I've recently started swimming and doing some basic body weight exercises and a few sets of exercises with free weights.   

I was 82 kgs and I'm now 70 kgs - a loss of 12 kgs in approx 12 weeks.   And of course I can easily fit into jeans and trousers with a 32" waist

 

I noticed I felt more mental clarity within about a week of starting the new diet, I also found I slept better and had more energy in the mornings.

During my teens, 20's and 30's I was nice and slim, it was only as I got into my 40's that I started to get a bit of a belly.   That is now gone and I've got the beginning of a nice flat stomach. not yet quite like I had in my 20's and 30's but getting there.  

The other great thing about it is I have a bunch of nice slim fit shirts and a few pairs of jeans which I haven't been able to wear for a couple of years and which now fit perfectly, it's as if I've upgraded my wardrobe and friends have complimented me asking if I've bought new clothes

I'm pretty sure I'm going to continue this OMAD lifestyle, I definitely feel better for changing up my diet and being able to buy and wear stylish clothes is a huge bonus.

[seancbk]

14 hours ago, OneEyedPie said:

Informative?  Maybe.

 

Complete and utter lunacy to deprive oneself of water for trendy fads?  Absolutely.  

 

Even a monkey wouldn't deprive itself of water so why would a human?

 

How far would you get before severe health complications set in in this weather that's averaging 38 to 40°C during the day.  Absolute ding dong post and nothing I'd want to associate myself with other than to condemn this nonsense in no uncertain terms.

 

Sorry but I can't say nothing else on this occasion, OP.

 

 

 

You've just demonstrated a complete lack of comprehension.   Where did the OP mention depriving oneself of water?   

A water fast means only consuming water, instead of eating food.   

 

[Road Warrior]

all doctors tell you to drink lot water when you wake to flush out kidneys ,so no water kidney failure /????