Back Tax And Wifes Income For Extension On A Non-o

[F1 Visa Runner]

My wife is self employed,running a small salon.Does she have to file a PND#1 each month for us to get the visa extention or is it different for the self employed?

I would like to follow up a newbies question in another thread ( Confused-marriage Visa Rules! ) that was never answered.

I ve been reading around TV for the last days and see that this way to an extension might be possible if

your wife have paid enough tax over the last 3 months.

As your wife are liable to pay 37.000 THB in tax per year (monthly this will be 3083 THB) if making 480.000 THB per year

( monthly this will be 40.000 THB ), my questions here is would the following example be enough to get an extension;

You go and open a company for your wife which cost some 3-5000 THB through for example Sunbelt if I remember right, then pay the "back tax" for 3 months ( 3083 x 3 = 9249 THB) ?

About her present income.. how can they check what this actually is? or is it just a column on the application where she has to fill in she is earning 40.000 a month?

Is this beating the thai immigration to its best or could it be looked at differently. I mean if the requirements are 3 months tax paid, then be it. Any business have its up`s and down`s or in some case have to be closed down. You never know what the present income will be when operating your own small business or when you decide to take a VERY long holliday.

It would be great if also Sunbelt came up with some answers here on how they look upon a case like this.

If this is possible you could just call it a "married man`s tax contribution to Thailand" and which you you have to do every year.

This is in a way the same I had to do in Norway to obtain a 1 year visa for my girlfriend. The difference is that the Norwegian government looks at income for the last year or as a minimum, the 3 last months, versus Thailands tax paid.

If being in the jungle for some years and there is no way around it other than getting yourself a job in Norway to meet the application requirements.

[Krub]

My wife is self employed,running a small salon.Does she have to file a PND#1 each month for us to get the visa extention or is it different for the self employed?

I would like to follow up a newbies question in another thread ( Confused-marriage Visa Rules! ) that was never answered.

I ve been reading around TV for the last days and see that this way to an extension might be possible if

your wife have paid enough tax over the last 3 months.

As your wife are liable to pay 37.000 THB in tax per year (monthly this will be 3083 THB) if making 480.000 THB per year

( monthly this will be 40.000 THB ), my questions here is would the following example be enough to get an extension;

You go and open a company for your wife which cost some 3-5000 THB through for example Sunbelt if I remember right, then pay the "back tax" for 3 months ( 3083 x 3 = 9249 THB) ?

About her present income.. how can they check what this actually is? or is it just a column on the application where she has to fill in she is earning 40.000 a month?

Is this beating the thai immigration to its best or could it be looked at differently. I mean if the requirements are 3 months tax paid, then be it. Any business have its up`s and down`s or in some case have to be closed down. You never know what the present income will be when operating your own small business or when you decide to take a VERY long holliday.

It would be great if also Sunbelt came up with some answers here on how they look upon a case like this.

If this is possible you could just call it a "married man`s tax contribution to Thailand" and which you you have to do every year.

This is in a way the same I had to do in Norway to obtain a 1 year visa for my girlfriend. The difference is that the Norwegian government looks at income for the last year or as a minimum, the 3 last months, versus Thailands tax paid.

If being in the jungle for some years and there is no way around it other than getting yourself a job in Norway to meet the application requirements.

This might or might not work. If it does and it becomes a popular way of 'beating the system' Immigration will tighten the rules yet again and the majority will have to 'pay' for the few who tried to beat the system/requirements.

I very much doubt Sunbelt will answer 'yes' at least publicly

[kriswillems]

If your wifes business is less than 1 year active immigration will probably only look at the last 3 months. If it's active during the whole year immigration wants to see 480.000 income during that year. I don't believe immigration will accept that your wife starts a new business everytime time you need an extention (and closes the business after that).

[lopburi3]

I believe it has been said repeatedly that the requirement is 40k per month. The proof being the last three months tax receipts if earnings are in Thailand. Seems very clear if this is indeed the case that application would only be accepted if the tax payment on each of those 3 months indicate 40k or higher salary.

[Sunbelt Asia]

If your wifes business is less than 1 year active immigration will probably only look at the last 3 months. If it's active during the whole year immigration wants to see 480.000 income during that year. I don't believe immigration will accept that your wife starts a new business everytime time you need an extention (and closes the business after that).

As of now, you only need to show the yearly tax filing for the natural person business owner which is the PND #90. This is used by a taxpayer when they only have one source of income such as a service business. If they operate a service business they can operate as a natural person and do not need to register a sole Proprietorship. The net income would be stated on line #1 of clause NO.10 of the PND #90. The tax if married to you and no children would be 32,000 Baht for the year. Here is a sample of the calculation for a self employed natural person. This PND #90 is filed every year by the 31st of March.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[F1 Visa Runner]

If your wifes business is less than 1 year active immigration will probably only look at the last 3 months. If it's active during the whole year immigration wants to see 480.000 income during that year. I don't believe immigration will accept that your wife starts a new business everytime time you need an extention (and closes the business after that).

As of now, you only need to show the yearly tax filing for the natural person business owner which is the PND #90. This is used by a taxpayer when they only have one source of income such as a service business. If they operate a service business they can operate as a natural person and do not need to register a sole Proprietorship. The net income would be stated on line #1 of clause NO.10 of the PND #90. The tax if married to you and no children would be 32,000 Baht for the year. Here is a sample of the calculation for a self employed natural person. This PND #90 is filed every year by the 31st of March.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

So you could say the "married man`s tax" is 32000 baht per year if without any children.... 2666 baht per month or lets say under 100 baht a day + border runs every 90 days.

This cost per year compared to either going outside Thailand to a consulate getting a new Non-O every 3 months or

going to a consulate every 3 months to get a tourist visa and then the next 3 months for monthly border runs to get VOA`s.

and its really not a big difference.

The good thing is the income is changed so it can come from any of the married couple. So for the ones under 50 years old and with more than enough money, this seems like a very good option.

I do always encuorage though, young people to make some kind of business to secure all family members from unexpected happenings similar to accidents and also for good moral reasons. Especially for moral reasons if raising kids and the way they should apprehend to what life is like.

Other benefits as your wife now has a tax record and a proof of income would be,

able to buy cars and similar by financing them.

[Sunbelt Asia]

So you could say the "married man`s tax" is 32000 baht per year if without any children.... 2666 baht per month or lets say under 100 baht a day + border runs every 90 days.

Why border runs every 90 days? You simply file a 90 day report at Immigration if you had not traveled.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[F1 Visa Runner]

So you could say the "married man`s tax" is 32000 baht per year if without any children.... 2666 baht per month or lets say under 100 baht a day + border runs every 90 days.

Why border runs every 90 days? You simply file a 90 day report at Immigration if you had not traveled.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Yeah you are right. One even dont need to go outside of Thailand. Doing it this way and it looks to me its the cheapest way of them all as every trip to a consulate can be anything from 5000-15000 baht. Trips depending on where you live in Thailand and also where you wish to go.

[kriswillems]

If your wifes business is less than 1 year active immigration will probably only look at the last 3 months. If it's active during the whole year immigration wants to see 480.000 income during that year. I don't believe immigration will accept that your wife starts a new business everytime time you need an extention (and closes the business after that).

As of now, you only need to show the yearly tax filing for the natural person business owner which is the PND #90. This is used by a taxpayer when they only have one source of income such as a service business. If they operate a service business they can operate as a natural person and do not need to register a sole Proprietorship. The net income would be stated on line #1 of clause NO.10 of the PND #90. The tax if married to you and no children would be 32,000 Baht for the year. Here is a sample of the calculation for a self employed natural person. This PND #90 is filed every year by the 31st of March.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

I downloaded PND90 from here :

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/29041.0.html

I don't find any clause 10, is this an old document?

[wolfmanjack]

If your wifes business is less than 1 year active immigration will probably only look at the last 3 months. If it's active during the whole year immigration wants to see 480.000 income during that year. I don't believe immigration will accept that your wife starts a new business everytime time you need an extention (and closes the business after that).

As of now, you only need to show the yearly tax filing for the natural person business owner which is the PND #90. This is used by a taxpayer when they only have one source of income such as a service business. If they operate a service business they can operate as a natural person and do not need to register a sole Proprietorship. The net income would be stated on line #1 of clause NO.10 of the PND #90. The tax if married to you and no children would be 32,000 Baht for the year. Here is a sample of the calculation for a self employed natural person. This PND #90 is filed every year by the 31st of March.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

I like the second calculation method better. Only 5,000 baht.

[kriswillems]

I like the second calculation method better. Only 5,000 baht.

Understandable, but you've to pay the amount that is the highest in both calcutions.

So, if the first calculation would result in the smallest amount you've to pay the amount of the last calculation.

[Sunbelt Asia]

If your wifes business is less than 1 year active immigration will probably only look at the last 3 months. If it's active during the whole year immigration wants to see 480.000 income during that year. I don't believe immigration will accept that your wife starts a new business everytime time you need an extention (and closes the business after that).

As of now, you only need to show the yearly tax filing for the natural person business owner which is the PND #90. This is used by a taxpayer when they only have one source of income such as a service business. If they operate a service business they can operate as a natural person and do not need to register a sole Proprietorship. The net income would be stated on line #1 of clause NO.10 of the PND #90. The tax if married to you and no children would be 32,000 Baht for the year. Here is a sample of the calculation for a self employed natural person. This PND #90 is filed every year by the 31st of March.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

I downloaded PND90 from here :

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/29041.0.html

I don't find any clause 10, is this an old document?

Here is an English version of a PND #90. This is a reference guide only as it must be filed in Thai. Clause #10 is on page 4

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[kriswillems]

Thanks Sunbelt! That makes things a bit more clear.

[Martin_F]

.....

I like the second calculation method better. Only 5,000 baht.

Unfortunately that is not an option. The second calculation is compared to the tax above and if the second method is larger then you pay be second amount.

This kicks in on low incomes where their taxable income is less than THB200K.

Sorry, the tax man always wins......

[F1 Visa Runner]

If your wifes business is less than 1 year active immigration will probably only look at the last 3 months. If it's active during the whole year immigration wants to see 480.000 income during that year. I don't believe immigration will accept that your wife starts a new business everytime time you need an extention (and closes the business after that).

As of now, you only need to show the yearly tax filing for the natural person business owner which is the PND #90. This is used by a taxpayer when they only have one source of income such as a service business. If they operate a service business they can operate as a natural person and do not need to register a sole Proprietorship. The net income would be stated on line #1 of clause NO.10 of the PND #90. The tax if married to you and no children would be 32,000 Baht for the year. Here is a sample of the calculation for a self employed natural person. This PND #90 is filed every year by the 31st of March.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

I can see the income is 480.000 after expense paid, and before the deductions of 2 x 30.000 is withdrawn. The net assessible income in your example show an annual income of just 420.000.

Is this just an example or would it qualify as a 40.000 baht income per month this way?

If operating a service business and not a sole proprietorship.

How often or when do you pay your taxes?

If one did not pay tax in the past is it just to start paying the tax on a monthly base?

For an extension based on this used by the immigration. How far into 2007 can you use the tax paid for 2006 or is it always the last 3 months paid when applying?

[kriswillems]

The 2 times 30000 baht not a deduction, it's an allowance. Immigration will look at your income before the allowances are substracted.

The 80% (for expenses) is a deduction.

They might also look at the income before deductions in some cases. For instances if you're not self-employed but you're and employee, you get 2x30000 baht allowance and an additional 40% deduction for expenses (with a maximum of 60000 baht). For employees immigration probably looks at the income before deductions and allowances.

I had a private discussion with Sunbelt about allowances and deductions but to be honest I still don't get it why immigration would look at the income before deductions and allowances for employees while they look at the income after deduction and before allowances for self-employed pleople. Something is not logical.

Edited March 9, 2007 by kriswillems

[Sunbelt Asia]

I can see the income is 480.000 after expense paid, and before the deductions of 2 x 30.000 is withdrawn. The net assessible income in your example show an annual income of just 420.000.

Is this just an example or would it qualify as a 40.000 baht income per month this way?

It is the income amount before the allowance.

If operating a service business and not a sole proprietorship.

How often or when do you pay your taxes?

Twice a year. PND 90 annual return and PND 94 half year return.

If one did not pay tax in the past is it just to start paying the tax on a monthly base?

No. You only file twice a year. March 31st ( PND #90) and Sept. 30th( PND#94)

For an extension based on this used by the immigration. How far into 2007 can you use the tax paid for 2006 or is it always the last 3 months paid when applying?

It is never three months required for a small business owner who is a natural person employer or sole proprietorship. It is either the PND#90 or the combination of the PND #90 and PND #94. ( The PND #94 always is filed after the PND #90)

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Sunbelt Asia]

They might also look at the income before deductions in some cases. For instances if you're not self-employed but you're and employee, you get 2x30000 baht allowance and an additional 40% deduction for expenses (with a maximum of 60000 baht). For employees immigration probably looks at the income before deductions and allowances.

They do in fact look at the income before deductions and allowances for a employee.

I had a private discussion with Sunbelt about allowances and deductions but to be honest I still don't get it why immigration would look at the income before deductions and allowances for employees while they look at the income after deduction and before allowances for self-employed pleople. Something is not logical.

The logic is on a 480,000 Baht salary, the tax for an employee may be around 32,000 Baht. This couple had at least 448,000 to live on.

In the hypothetical example you are pointing out. The employer declaring 480,000 Baht income could have actual business deductions which were 480,000 Baht. The tax then would be 2,400 Baht. (480,000 Baht x 0.5%) A person then could satisfied the income criteria for the extension of stay based on marriage by just filing a PND #90 and pay 2,400 Baht tax. This woman had no money to live on from working. How could she support her husband? This is the logic that was explained. Just to confirm our head Immigration Lawyer is asking the Immigration Commander on Monday.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[kriswillems]

Let's put it the other way around Sunbelt.

Suppose a self-employed wife wants to support and can support her husband. She is really self employed, so no fake business.

Suppose she has a normal shop and is selling 1,5 million baht per year.

Suppose she's using the standard 80% tax deduction as offered by the tax department and she doesn't prove all expenses.

Thailand offers a 80% deduction for most self-employed people, but this doesn't mean the expenses are actually 80%. In fact most self employed people have much less expenses. Thailand just want to support self-employed people fiscally.

So, the shop keeper is usually much more rich than somebody that works in a company for 480K per year.

The shop keeper would get an income after deductions of: 300000 baht.

So, she can't get an exention for her husband.

But compared to a woman that works in a company, the self employed person probably has much higher "available" income than de woman that work in the company. Thailand offers a 80% deduction for most self-employed people, but this doesn't mean the expenses are actually 80%. In fact most self employed people have much less expenses. Thailand just want to support self-employed people in a fiscal way. It's not very fair husband are being punished for that.

Thailand offers a 80% tax deduction to most self-employed people. No self-employed person would ever be capable to get enough money from her job to support her husband, because the turnaround of the business would need to be that big that it has to register as a company. Does also doesn't seem to be very fair, does it?

Further on the would be a discrimination of self-employed people because employee can use 60000 deductions and only need to to have a net assesable income of 420000 baht while a self-employed person would need a net assessable income of 480000 baht.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Let's put it the other way around Sunbelt.

You act like it’s our rule. As I've told you by private message, "If you get a different Immigration viewpoint on what they are looking at. God bless you. This is what we have been told so far on the logic they are using."

Thailand offers a 80% tax deduction to most self-employed people.

This is not correct.

Most have tax deductions of 70%. 80% deductions are in the industries of wood, transportation, company seal, mining, mfg drinks under excise tax law, pottery, ceramics, cement pottery, electrical plant, ice, glue, mfg of powder not used in cosmetics, balloons, plastic, rubber boots, laundry, fabric coloring, sales of goods that the seller is not a manufacture and of goods not previously specified and rewards from horse racing.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[kriswillems]

I am sorry about that Sunbelt.

English is not my native language.

I didn't mean to sound like that.

I understand you don't make the rules.

"sales of goods that the seller is not a manufacture", that's still a very big group, which includes the small shops that just sell things without producing them. Just by looking around at all the shops in my village I expected this was the biggest group. I am suprised that the 70% group is bigger than the 80% group. Thanks for the information.

I just tried to point out that under the rules as they have been explained to you it's almost impossible for a self-employed Thai person to support her husband because the high fiscal deductions if you don't prove your expenses.

For instance, a self-employed wife with with 80% deduction would need a turnover of 2.4 million baht (480000 * 5).

I believe the maximum turnover a self-employed person may have is 1.8 million. I might be wrong about that.

So this wife can't support her husband although somebody like that is usually much more rich than an employee that get's 480K per year.

A self employed person with 70% deduction would need a turnover of 1.6 million.

Further on this interpretation of the rules also means that "clause 10, number 1 on PND90" should be 420000 or more for an employee and 480000 or more for a self-employed person, which is a bit odd.

And I didn't even mention other complications when not taking into account the income before deductions.

For instance:

How about the income from rent? Should we consider the income before or after deductions? Or will it be before deductions for employees and after deductions for self-employed people?

And the income from interest on savings? Before or after deductions? And will this be treated different for self-employed people and employees?

If you look at some parts of the income before deduction and other parts after deduction everything very soon becomes totally unclear and very complicated, especially when self-employed people and employees are treated differently. The number written in clause 10, number 1 on PND90 would have no meaning at all, not for self-employed people, but also not for employees.

This subject is much more complicated than the 90 out of 180 calculation, and immigration doesn't even seem to get that correct....so, to be honest I don't trust much about what they are saying (to you or to me) because their interpretation might change from day to day.

Edited March 9, 2007 by kriswillems

[F1 Visa Runner]

If operating a service business and not a sole proprietorship.

How often or when do you pay your taxes?

Twice a year. PND 90 annual return and PND 94 half year return.

If one did not pay tax in the past is it just to start paying the tax on a monthly base?

No. You only file twice a year. March 31st ( PND #90) and Sept. 30th( PND#94)

For an extension based on this used by the immigration. How far into 2007 can you use the tax paid for 2006 or is it always the last 3 months paid when applying?

It is never three months required for a small business owner who is a natural person employer or sole proprietorship. It is either the PND#90 or the combination of the PND #90 and PND #94. ( The PND #94 always is filed after the PND #90)

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

If I have understood things right, if you apply for an extenision before 1st of July 2007 the immigration would base it on the PND 90 annual tax return for 2006?

I assume the period you can file the PND 94 half year tax report is between 1st of July and 31st September.

Lets say, as it takes about a month to get the extension and you applied on the 20th of June. In this case your extension will be considered when two tax periods are overlapping each other. Would the Immigration in this case also require to have a look at PND 94 as to see if there is tax paid for the first 6 months of 2007.

I know they cant ask for it when applying for an extension on the 20th of june as you probably could not have a PND 94 receipt yet.

[F1 Visa Runner]

For an extension based on this used by the immigration. How far into 2007 can you use the tax paid for 2006 or is it always the last 3 months paid when applying?

It is never three months required for a small business owner who is a natural person employer or sole proprietorship. It is either the PND#90 or the combination of the PND #90 and PND #94. ( The PND #94 always is filed after the PND #90)

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

If I have understood things right, if you apply for an extenision before 1st of July 2007 the immigration would base it on the PND 90 annual tax return for 2006?

I assume the period you can file the PND 94 half year tax report is between 1st of July and 31st September.

Lets say, as it takes about a month to get the extension and you applied on the 20th of June. In this case your extension will be considered when two tax periods are overlapping each other. Would the Immigration in this case also require to have a look at PND 94 as to see if there is tax paid for the first 6 months of 2007.

I know they cant ask for it when applying for an extension on the 20th of june as you probably could not have a PND 94 receipt yet.

Does anyone know the answer to this?

Sunbelt, Is this a case they would use PND 90 and PND 94 in a combination?

[Sunbelt Asia]

This subject is much more complicated than the 90 out of 180 calculation, and immigration doesn't even seem to get that correct....so, to be honest I don't trust much about what they are saying (to you or to me) because their interpretation might change from day to day.

Like the ocean, Immigration can change from day to day. You can only look at how they are processing today.

Does anyone know the answer to this?

Sunbelt, Is this a case they would use PND 90 and PND 94 in a combination?

They use a combination of PND 90 and PND 94 after the month of August of your second year of trading. Before that time it’s only PND #90.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com