Holding Thai people accountable

[Hervey Bay]

It seems to be very difficult for Thai people to allow themselves to be held accountable for their mistakes. Avoiding accountability appears to be ingrained in their culture, perhaps due to the potential loss of face.

 

They just end up backpedalling in circles, with the excuses becoming more and more absurd. The natural Western tendency is to try to rub their noses in it, but that only makes things worse.

 

Does anyone have any general wisdom they would like to share about how to deal with this, when one needs to hold Thai people accountable ?

 

[ezzra]

This is Thailand Sir. and as a foreigner in Thailand you will not and can not hold Thai people accountcle, put a blame or even have a REAL say in any of Thai life that will matter in anyway... and the more noise one make, the less  hassle free his or her stay in this country will be... 

[fishtank]

Thais are never ever wrong. They are perfect in every way.

You should know that.

[colinneil]

Holding Thai people accountable !! You have a laugh?

They are never wrong, never make a mistake, my wife is a perfect example.

Great wife, could not get better, but she will never ever admit to being wrong.

[bendejo]

38 minutes ago, ezzra said:

This is Thailand Sir. and as a foreigner in Thailand you will not and can not hold Thai people accountcle, put a blame or even have a REAL say in any of Thai life that will matter in anyway...

...and any other Thai cannot take your side against a fellow Thai, regardless of how wrong/fanciful/batshit crazy the allegations.  Perhaps in private later on a Thai friend may tell you they agreed with you but taking such a stand is simply not done.  It's an "us and them" perspective on the world.  Other countries in SEA have this as well, but not all of them.  I've met a few Lao who were pretty cool in this respect.  On the other hand there are nations all over the planet that can be just as bad.

It might also be a social class thing, eg rural people from certain areas of Thailand may have a more blind nationalism and xenophobia than, say, Bkk middle class.

I stayed in Malaysia for a while, mostly living in Chinese areas, and I am happy to say if you're hanging out with them and someone tries running a trip on you they are not at all shy about telling them to buzz off.

 

 

 

[mfd101]

Yo talk to mut. Cleate ploblem.

[Kadilo]

Unfortunately the guys above have already summed it up. 

They are never wrong, stick together no matter what, and will lie through their back teeth rather than lose face. 

 

Its one of the most frustrating aspects of being here imo but no matter how much you may want to fight it all you will do is piss yourself off. 

 

Two choices I’m sorry to say, put up with it, or if you feel you cannot then walk. 

 

Possibly why a lot of them “grow up” into irresponsible childish adults. 

[Odysseus123]

6 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

Yo talk to mut. Cleate ploblem.

..hab black heart..you no unnerstan..yu clazy farang...go to hom cluntry..I meet gnu lich man!

[OneMoreFarang]

What is the outcome you like to see?

I don't think you will ever get a apology or something similar.

If you want to keep a good relation to that person for the future there might be other ways to resolve this.

 

[Kadilo]

2 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

 

If you want to keep a good relation to that person for the future there might be other ways to resolve this.

 

Such as?

[OneMoreFarang]

1 minute ago, Kadilo said:

4 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

If you want to keep a good relation to that person for the future there might be other ways to resolve this.

Such as?

I had once an old and complicated motorcycle and a motorcycle mechanic who was specialized in that kind of bike. I bought it from him and he took care of it for more than a year. Never a problem.

But then one day we had a problem. I think something like he promised to do something within a week and it took a month or so. It's a long time ago and I don't remember what caused our "misunderstanding". But I remember for sure he was responsible for the problem.

 

When my bike didn't work and I ask him to come to see me (which he did previously) he told me he will come but he didn't. I called him a couple of times over the next days and it was always the same: "Sure, I will come later today" and he never came.

 

I spoke to a Friend who worked all his life in Thailand what I can do. That was around the time at the end of the year and my friend recommended I should go to see him and give him a bottle of whisky and wish him a happy new year. And I should not mention my bike or that he should come or anything like that. And my friend told me if that guy accepts my gift then everything will be fine again.

 

I was reluctant to do that but at the end I thought I want my bike fixed and he is the best so I will go there with that bottle. I gave it to him and he accepted it. My bike was not mentioned.

 

A few days later he came to see me to fix my bike and we never had an issue again in the future.

 

My goal was to get my bike fixed. That's why I did what had to be done and it worked - at least for me.

[Kadilo]

1 minute ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I had once an old and complicated motorcycle and a motorcycle mechanic who was specialized in that kind of bike. I bought it from him and he took care of it for more than a year. Never a problem.

But then one day we had a problem. I think something like he promised to do something within a week and it took a month or so. It's a long time ago and I don't remember what caused our "misunderstanding". But I remember for sure he was responsible for the problem.

 

When my bike didn't work and I ask him to come to see me (which he did previously) he told me he will come but he didn't. I called him a couple of times over the next days and it was always the same: "Sure, I will come later today" and he never came.

 

I spoke to a Friend who worked all his life in Thailand what I can do. That was around the time at the end of the year and my friend recommended I should go to see him and give him a bottle of whisky and wish him a happy new year. And I should not mention my bike or that he should come or anything like that. And my friend told me if that guy accepts my gift then everything will be fine again.

 

I was reluctant to do that but at the end I thought I want my bike fixed and he is the best so I will go there with that bottle. I gave it to him and he accepted it. My bike was not mentioned.

 

A few days later he came to see me to fix my bike and we never had an issue again in the future.

 

My goal was to get my bike fixed. That's why I did what had to be done and it worked - at least for me.

I can see how it worked in your case and fair play to you. 

 

Personally I would not want to reward someone for doing something they should already have done. Maybe that’s my stubbornness and not thinking outside the box and prob why I struggle with some of this cultural stuff over here. 

[ThaiBunny]

On 5/29/2019 at 5:58 AM, Hervey Bay said:

Does anyone have any general wisdom they would like to share about how to deal with this, when one needs to hold Thai people accountable ?

Yes - forget about it, it ain't gonna happen, chill

[Gecko123]

OP:

You're right, sounding off never seems to work. The few times I have been successful has been by playing on sympathies, asking how they would feel if they were me, or trying to find humor in the situation and cajoling them into correcting the situation. Going up the chain of command (demanding to speak to the manager) rarely works either. I have never had success with this tactic. I think a lot of this unwillingness to confront someone and hold them accountable comes not so much from Thai culture, but from the Thai educational system. If "nobody fails" then nobody is ever confronted with poor performance. Many times I have noticed that if you take a Thai person to task for something they seem to go into shock as if it's something they've never experienced before.

[Kasane]

A newbie Thai basher troll.

[Gecko123]

57 minutes ago, bendejo said:

...and any other Thai cannot take your side against a fellow Thai, regardless of how wrong/fanciful/batshit crazy the allegations.  Perhaps in private later on a Thai friend may tell you they agreed with you but taking such a stand is simply not done.  It's an "us and them" perspective on the world.  Other countries in SEA have this as well, but not all of them.  I've met a few Lao who were pretty cool in this respect.  On the other hand there are nations all over the planet that can be just as bad.

It might also be a social class thing, eg rural people from certain areas of Thailand may have a more blind nationalism and xenophobia than, say, Bkk middle class.

I stayed in Malaysia for a while, mostly living in Chinese areas, and I am happy to say if you're hanging out with them and someone tries running a trip on you they are not at all shy about telling them to buzz off.

 

 

 

I hear where you're coming from, but I actually think that getting other Thais involved is a good strategy for conflict resolution. Applies peer pressure. Puu yai and police can sometimes be helpful too. I sometimes think that Thais think they can get away with a fast one with a foreigner because there's this mindset that the foreigner won't be able to complain to anyone because of the language barrier. It comes as a shock when they see you can explain your side of the story to other Thais.

[DingDongLing]

1 hour ago, Kadilo said:

Unfortunately the guys above have already summed it up. 

They are never wrong, stick together no matter what, and will lie through their back teeth rather than lose face. 

 

Its one of the most frustrating aspects of being here imo but no matter how much you may want to fight it all you will do is piss yourself off. 

 

Two choices I’m sorry to say, put up with it, or if you feel you cannot then walk. 

 

Possibly why a lot of them “grow up” into irresponsible childish adults. 

How about telling your gf she is lying?  Did she lose face?  Big consequences? 

[thaiguzzi]

1 hour ago, bendejo said:

It might also be a social class thing, eg rural people from certain areas of Thailand may have a more blind nationalism and xenophobia than, say, Bkk middle class.

Er, i have found the exact 180 degree opposite to be true.

 

[Kadilo]

15 minutes ago, DingDongLing said:

How about telling your gf she is lying?  Did she lose face?  Big consequences? 

Oh i call a spade a spade. I’ve called her and her family liars, because in one particular example they were. She/They probably think they didnt lose face as they quite possibly believe their own bull and even if they don’t they don’t really care in all honesty as were are ferangs at the end of the day and as far as family is concerned we will always be at the bottom of the food chain. 

 

The consequences are they just deny everything and go into a sulk and come out with even more excuses (lies) so it’s pretty pointless. 

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Kadilo said:

I can see how it worked in your case and fair play to you. 

 

Personally I would not want to reward someone for doing something they should already have done. Maybe that’s my stubbornness and not thinking outside the box and prob why I struggle with some of this cultural stuff over here. 

Believe me I struggled before I decided to go ahead.

The alternative would have been no or comparatively bad service for my bike.

It worked for me so I would do it again - even if I don't like it.

[Andrew Dwyer]

Believe me I struggled before I decided to go ahead.
The alternative would have been no or comparatively bad service for my bike.
It worked for me so I would do it again - even if I don't like it.

I can relate exactly to this !!

In my situation I would have been very reluctant to comply with the “ bribery “ , I would have gotten angry and stated “ it’s not gonna happen !! “ even sulked a bit [emoji3].

But then after persuasion and giving in would have regretted my reluctance and kicked myself for fighting “ the system “ or “ the culture “ and would have been happy with the outcome and prepared to do it again.

Like the saying goes “ When in Thailand “ !!
( or something like that [emoji51])

[WalkingOrders]

Not sure, but here is an example. In the USA, a bank employee tells me something I consider incorrect. I consider the person whom I am speaking to be wrong and say so, clearly expressing my position, if not resolved, I request a supervisor. In Thailand to be so direct is an insult. So, rather then call the person out as incorrect, I must do a whole lot more asking for consideration about perhaps another view having the potential of also being correct, at this point the Thai will gladly get a supervisor on his own accord, as he was not insulted by me. At which point, I talk with supervisor in the same manner. I have a high potential for my issue being resolved. I am getting better at this kind of discussion.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, WalkingOrders said:

Not sure, but here is an example. In the USA, a bank employee tells me something I consider incorrect. I consider the person whom I am speaking to be wrong and say so, clearly expressing my position, if not resolved, I request a supervisor. In Thailand to be so direct is an insult. So, rather then call the person out as incorrect, I must do a whole lot more asking for consideration about perhaps another view having the potential of also being correct, at this point the Thai will gladly get a supervisor on his own accord, as he was not insulted by me. At which point, I talk with supervisor in the same manner. I have a high potential for my issue being resolved. I am getting better at this kind of discussion.

How can you even try to compare people in Thailand and the USA? Not same, very different!

[Kwasaki]

6 hours ago, Hervey Bay said:

It seems to be very difficult for Thai people to allow themselves to be held accountable for their mistakes.

Does anyone have any general wisdom they would like to share about how to deal with this, when one needs to hold Thai people accountable ?

Don't really know what your on about, most people don't like being wrong or admitting mistakes, understanding different cultures in the way you go about it is your problem.

In Thailand I say count to 10 then you go about it a polite manner, 

e.g. I have many things across the board not correctly done in Thailand but Thais have always addressed in their way and corrected it. 

[CharlieH]

Dont say its wrong, just say it needs to be done a different way, then no one is wrong.

[HeyHeyHey]

It's like asking how to convince Kim Jong-un to step down

[Hervey Bay]

On 5/29/2019 at 11:26 AM, Gecko123 said:

I hear where you're coming from, but I actually think that getting other Thais involved is a good strategy for conflict resolution. Applies peer pressure. Puu yai and police can sometimes be helpful too. I sometimes think that Thais think they can get away with a fast one with a foreigner because there's this mindset that the foreigner won't be able to complain to anyone because of the language barrier. It comes as a shock when they see you can explain your side of the story to other Thais.

 Thanks, dude....this is exactly the advice I was needing. It bridges the cultural gap that either exists or is created by Thais in order to get their way (if they are in fact trying to do that).

Cheers

[marcusarelus]

Same with any country.  Look at how long it took for May to take responsibility for her actions.  Same with America.  Same with Saudi Arabia.  What is different is that so many people think Thailand is different.  Is it the first time you all have been away from home?

[fusion58]

On 5/29/2019 at 7:28 AM, Kadilo said:

Unfortunately the guys above have already summed it up. 

They are never wrong, stick together no matter what, and will lie through their back teeth rather than lose face. 

 

Its one of the most frustrating aspects of being here imo but no matter how much you may want to fight it all you will do is piss yourself off. 

 

Two choices I’m sorry to say, put up with it, or if you feel you cannot then walk. 

 

Possibly why a lot of them “grow up” into irresponsible childish adults. 

This valuation of "face" above all else (except maybe money) would also explain why the educational system in this country is such a farce.

 

"Thai" + "accountability" = oxymoron.