Issues of Economics and Ethics about Expats Moving from "Richer" Countries to "Poorer" Countries

[Jingthing]

Is it "immoral" or "unethical" for expats from richer countries to move to poorer countries to "take advantage" of the perceived (not always real) lower cost of living?

 

I'm not arguing that it is. I don't think it is. But the question has been brought up on this forum so I thought it was worth exploring. 

 

A related issue is what happens to the local culture when there is a glut of such people trying to exercise geographical arbitrage. Talking here about expectations of tipping, inflated rents, inflated housing sales prices to foreigners, being seen as not much more than a Walking ATM kind of thing.

These issues are not only limited to Thailand. They're relevant for all popular expat destinations.

 

Now not all expats of course are motivated much by these perceived economic benefits, but it's my contention that the hoped for quality of life improvement for the same or less money is a major motivating factor for many groups of expats, RETIRED ones in particular as they're on a fixed income. Also different flavors of "digital nomads" as they often try to make richer country wage levels and hope to spend at poorer country levels.

 

Personally I don't think there is anything "immoral" or "unethical" about seeking to improve your quality of life (emphasis on seeking, there are never guarantees) by MOVING to a new location. Whether that location is within your own country or whether it is a move abroad.

 

A great example is how many people have moved and will move from the San Francisco Bay Area which has become a place that is affordable only for the very wealthy.

 

Such people typically move to lower cost places like Texas and Georgia but pretty much everywhere in the USA is more affordable than the S.F. Bay Area. Some of those people also move abroad.

 

Is it "immoral" or "unethical" for a Bay Area person to "take advantage" of the lower prices in Texas? How is that? I'm not buying it. 

 

Now here is where it gets messy. When a large number of people move from richer areas to poorer areas, whether domestically or internationally, then there is almost always damage done to the local culture and people.

 

The new people find things so "cheap" that they overpay for almost everything. They tip or over tip even in cultural situations where it's insulting to tip. These from "rich" land migrants often see perfectly normal level locals in the context of the local economies as poor and take pity on them by throwing money at them. Condescending much? Over time the locals see as outsider, whether a farang/gringo abroad or a Californian in other parts of the USA and start to EXPECT such people to waste their money.

 

This hurts who exactly? Well maybe it helps the people getting the extra money they didn't expect but there can be negative effects for long term locals of being priced out of their own area, etc.

 

Bringing up these related issues for discussion purposes if people feel interested enough to comment.

 

Cheers.

Edited June 14, 2019 by Jingthing

[Puchaiyank]

I live comfortably and securely when I am in the US...what is missing is quality companionship if you find yourself alone after 50 years of age...

 

I tried all the popular dating sites available in the US and found no one I was willing to spend time with...

 

Obese, photos from 20 years younger, 50 year old princesses that want to be wooed like a high-school teenager, and those that use their attractive appearance to get a free meal...nothing much is real for older chaps...

 

1st let me say I have lived in many counties...enjoyed myself in most all of them...Thailand has always held a special place in my heart...so I came back to Thailand looking for a lady age 45-55 who was interested in a farang for companionship...

 

While waiting for some magic chemistry to occur while perusing one of the popular dating sites...I took my body to any number of available massage parlors to help out the local economy...????

 

I was contacted by a lady outside my target age range...she convinced me to meet her for lunch...and though skeptical at first...we have been happy together as bf/gf now for more than a year...she is considerably younger...not a chance in hell in my home country...

 

I live comfortably in modern housing, purchased a new car and motorcycle, eat wonderfully prepared Thai foods as she was a chef in a hotel restaurant and likes to cook, at a fraction of the cost in the US...

 

Should I feel remorse for being happy and contented in my latter years...hell no...I have paid my dues to government and society...what I do in retirement is my business...????

 

 

 

 

[Kwasaki]

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Is it "immoral" or "unethical" for a Bay Area person to "take advantage" of the lower prices in Texas? How is that? I'm not buying it. 

I wouldn't think of it either way in those terms more like what's best for my future.

My story is too long but cut short, I wanted to retire early and I made decision based on my UK future life situation.

All my older friends plans were to move north of UK to find cheaper places to live.

My move was going to be an Asian country rather than some lonely one room dingy bedsit watching my life savings dwindle away.  

[meand]

 

The only real loser in the entire equation is the home country/state and its businesses, who loses out on sales tax and in country purchases. 

[Thaidream]

I really do not see any moral or ethical  issue as freedom of travel is a right and countries also have a right to establish immigration laws that  regulate the number of foreigners whom they allow.

 

What is immoral or not ethical is when people are discriminated against because of  personal characteristics- gender; sexual orientation; age; etc.

 

Countries like Thailand- do not  have an Immigration system that excludes people  based on anything other than their ability to meet certain financial requirements.  We, as foreigners, may disagree with them but still have to meet them.

 

Since we come from wealthier countries- we certainly should not establish any kind of superiority; use monies to exploit local people or generally denigrate the culture.Unfortunately, there are some foreigners in Thailand doing just that and  it has caught the eye of the authorities.  We see Immigration laws being toughened; more scrutiny of foreigners and in some cases a general suspicion of foreigners.

 

Most of this comes from an over abundance of foreigners who bring in their own culture and refuse to assimilate; and with the increased number there will always be criminals.

[marcusarelus]

I never got a chance to be a colonial master like Gramps.  Here I bought a decent kit and have the wife and servants bow and call me Bwana.  It gives me an idea how the Great Generation lived.  

[Jingthing]

52 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I really do not see any moral or ethical  issue as freedom of travel is a right and countries also have a right to establish immigration laws that  regulate the number of foreigners whom they allow.

 

What is immoral or not ethical is when people are discriminated against because of  personal characteristics- gender; sexual orientation; age; etc.

 

Countries like Thailand- do not  have an Immigration system that excludes people  based on anything other than their ability to meet certain financial requirements.  We, as foreigners, may disagree with them but still have to meet them.

 

Since we come from wealthier countries- we certainly should not establish any kind of superiority; use monies to exploit local people or generally denigrate the culture.Unfortunately, there are some foreigners in Thailand doing just that and  it has caught the eye of the authorities.  We see Immigration laws being toughened; more scrutiny of foreigners and in some cases a general suspicion of foreigners.

 

Most of this comes from an over abundance of foreigners who bring in their own culture and refuse to assimilate; and with the increased number there will always be criminals.

I don't agree with your emphasis on assimilation. We're always going to be foreigners especially in a culture such as Thailand. I think of it more as people trying to make successful ADAPTATIONS. Going totally native is quite eccentric for the vast majority of expats and most that say they even intend to do that or want to are fooling themselves, because that's not really want they want and that's not really what they're going to do. As far as the damage that masses of tourists and expats do to destinations, that's already happened in Thailand long ago. I think it's irreversible. 

Although maybe there are some backwater destinations here where that hasn't happened but I don't think those are places most foreigners really would want to live in. 

[brokenbone]

no, its purely rational and undoubtedly weigh in

in the decision for everyone.

for me it was spending power, climate,

and the hope for less pain through a combo of spending power-massage & climate-less pain again

 

[swissie]

It's more a question of how long this "Geographical-Arbitrage" will remain possible. As "western Countries" are hitting the ceiling as far as economic growth is concerned, so called 3rd world countries have much leeway on the upside. This future projection is already mirrored by looking at currency exchange rates.
- 10 years from now, (especially concerning S/E Asian countries), the "Geographical-Arbitrage" is likely to no more exist. (Globalization in full action.)
The only places left for "Geographical-Arbitrage", 10 years from now, may be Zimbabwe, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Honduras and Guatemala.
- Long term Farangs relying on monthly (fixed) pensions in form of "rock solid hard western currencies" will find their Retirement-Plans greatly disrupted, especially in S/E Asia.
(We all know some UK-Expats that have experienced "negative currency developpements". With dreamy eyes they tell the tale of when the exchange rate was 70:1).

The same to be repeated with other "rock solid hard western currencies". Just a matter of time.

I find, that next to the dazzeling smile of a Thai-Lady, the above should be part of any retirement-planning in connection with future "Geographical-Arbitrage". Always in mind, that the benefits (the opportunities) of "Geographical-Arbitrage" are getting slimmer by the passage of time. At least as long as the concept of "Globalization" remains unchallenged.
- At some time in the future the expression "We are not in Kansas anymore" may well take another profound meaning:

"Why did we ever leave Kansas in the first place?"

In conclusion: While the "Geographical-Arbitrage" is still worthwhile and attractve: Enjoy while it lasts! After that, it's back to Kansas.
Cheers.

[marcusarelus]

5 minutes ago, swissie said:

- At some time in the future the expression "We are not in Kansas anymore" may well take another profound meaning:

"Why did we ever leave Kansas in the first place?"

In conclusion: While the "Geographical-Arbitrage" is still worthwhile and attractve: Enjoy while it lasts! After that, it's back to Kansas.
Cheers.

Estimates are about 2 million house servants in the USA almost all women of color.  So they have them in Kansas too.  Even in Switzerland where estimates are 4% of the workforce are cleaning peoples homes and other domestic jobs.  

Edited June 14, 2019 by marcusarelus

[swissie]

7 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Estimates are about 2 million house servants in the USA almost all women of color.  So they have them in Kansas too.  Even in Switzerland where estimates are 4% of the workforce are cleaning peoples homes and other domestic jobs.  

Marcus, read full post. My post was not focusing on "House-Servants" in the US nor Eastern-Timbuktu.

Again, read full post. If too busy to read full post, don't comment. EASY!

[Jingthing]

20 minutes ago, swissie said:

It's more a question of how long this "Geographical-Arbitrage" will remain possible. As "western Countries" are hitting the ceiling as far as economic growth is concerned, so called 3rd world countries have much leeway on the upside. This future projection is already mirrored by looking at currency exchange rates.
- 10 years from now, (especially concerning S/E Asian countries), the "Geographical-Arbitrage" is likely to no more exist. (Globalization in full action.)
The only places left for "Geographical-Arbitrage", 10 years from now, may be Zimbabwe, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Honduras and Guatemala.
- Long term Farangs relying on monthly (fixed) pensions in form of "rock solid hard western currencies" will find their Retirement-Plans greatly disrupted, especially in S/E Asia.
(We all know some UK-Expats that have experienced "negative currency developpements". With dreamy eyes they tell the tale of when the exchange rate was 70:1).

The same to be repeated with other "rock solid hard western currencies". Just a matter of time.

I find, that next to the dazzeling smile of a Thai-Lady, the above should be part of any retirement-planning in connection with future "Geographical-Arbitrage". Always in mind, that the benefits (the opportunities) of "Geographical-Arbitrage" are getting slimmer by the passage of time. At least as long as the concept of "Globalization" remains unchallenged.
- At some time in the future the expression "We are not in Kansas anymore" may well take another profound meaning:

"Why did we ever leave Kansas in the first place?"

In conclusion: While the "Geographical-Arbitrage" is still worthwhile and attractve: Enjoy while it lasts! After that, it's back to Kansas.
Cheers.

Sure. Conditions change.

However, as a retired USA dollar based person I don't see the opportunities for geographical arbitrage in some countries going away anytime very soon.

 

[marcusarelus]

8 hours ago, swissie said:

Marcus, read full post. My post was not focusing on "House-Servants" in the US nor Eastern-Timbuktu.

Again, read full post. If too busy to read full post, don't comment. EASY!

Why comment if you don't understand my post.  Just ask and I'll explain it to you.  You wrote. "It's more a question of how long this "Geographical-Arbitrage" will remain possible. As "western Countries" are hitting the ceiling as far as economic growth is concerned, so called 3rd world countries have much leeway on the upside."  That is of course nonsense as the Western countries are encouraging immigration so they can take advantage of "Geographical-Arbitrage"  at home as Switzerland with 4% of it's workforce are in the home and being taken advantage of as domestic labor many illegally.  Expats take advantage of Thai people by living here and Swiss people at home take advantage of poor Asian people in their homes.  It's the same thing.  

[gamini]

You are presumably only are talking about economic retirees. I'm sure there are  thousands in this country who retired here because they love the country. The beaches, the climate, the food

and the smiling friendly Thai people. Many of us have wonderful Thai friends who go out of the way to help us when we are in need. It is the economic retirees who damaged the country.

They don't care about the people, the customs and the environment. 

[Thaidream]

On 6/14/2019 at 2:15 PM, Jingthing said:

don't agree with your emphasis on assimilation. We're always going to be foreigners especially in a culture such as Thailand. I think of it more as people trying to make successful ADAPTATIONS. Going totally native is quite eccentric for the vast majority of expats and most that say they even intend to do that or want to are fooling themselves, because that's not really want they want and that's not really what they're going to do. As far as the damage that masses of tourists and expats do to destinations, that's already happened in Thailand long ago. I think it's irreversible. 

Although maybe there are some backwater destinations here where that hasn't happened but I don't think those are places most foreigners really would want to live in

A fair point- possibly adaptation to the Thai way of doing things and having respect for  the culture.  There are many foreigners here who have no respect for anyone and unfortunately they stand out like a sore thumb.  they are not in the majority but enough of them acting out reflects on all of us.

 

What is interesting is that so many Westerners who have left their own countries come to a place like Thailand so they can live a better quality of life.  That doesn't say much for our own countries such as America where healthcare is a huge issue and the elected officials refuse to act.

 

In many of our native countries, governments refuse to provide adequate funded pensions; adequate increases in pensions and tax relief for the aged.

 

What has happened in the last 20 years is a perversion of the economic system in which the  wealthy class have accumulated huge amounts of wealth while the remainder of the population has remained static or regressed.  This is so in the US and certainly in Thailand where it is even more visible.

 

None of this is sustainable and will eventually be reversed either by a new breed of leader that  rises in several countries  and reverses the tend through fair taxation and labor practices.In some countries, the new leaders will rise in other ways such as coups or revolution or war.

 

If Thailand remains as is for the next 20 years with  only modest growth and a population under monetary and other stress- I doubt many foreigners will want to retire in Thailand. 

 

 In addition- should a new dynamic leader evolve who decides to change everything- and Thailand  has massive growth; a redistribution of wealth  and a large middle class- most Westerners won't be able to retire in Thailand as they can't afford it.  In fact there are some economists who are predicting  a 20% revaluation upward of the Thai Baht. 

 

In summary- it's common in all places for citizens to want to stretch their retirement money. Nothing immoral about that as long as the expat respects the local customs wherever that maybe.

[Rimmer]

A post with an altered quote has been removed

[Jingthing]

Interesting points, Thaidream, but I don't share your optimism about the potential for positive changes in the west. It seems to me we're witnessing a historic global decline in liberal democracies. Referring to an Ayn Rand type character posting on youtube (Nomad Capitalist) that I don't share much ideology with, I really like his major theme -- go where you're treated best. Yes I think for retirees and most expats here in Thailand, the getting treated "best" has trended badly in the wrong direction and rather dramatically so. 

 

A proactive comment -- I'm not suggesting that expats are "entitled" to be treated well here or anywhere.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Jingthing

[Golden Triangle]

I retired here mainly for the weather, the cheaper accommodation, a relaxed way of life and no stress, the quality of life offered was also superior to the UK.

 

I have a friend in the UK who pays twice as much as I do on rent for a one bedroom flat than I pay for a 3 bedroom bungalow, yeah the £ is shit but I can survive thank you.

 

I used to tip according to UK rules when I first came here back in the early 2000s I was soon put right on that ???? 

 

One other thing, I believe that educated foreigners bring something to the country, when I look at the UK now and see Muslim no-go areas for the authorities and the general population I find it difficult to think that they are bringing anything positive to the table, so maybe I also moved to avoid the crap happening in my country of birth.

[marcusarelus]

You get treated anywhere according to how much money you have.  In my small town here 100,000 baht per month is upper middle class and I get treated accordingly servants and the kids bow when they walk by.  Where I grew up (1950's) $100,000 per month was low to middle class and I got treated accordingly.  1 servant and non boarding prep school and good college but not skull and bones at Yale.   

 

I'd need 3 times the money I make in Thailand to get treated the same in America.  It's not just cost of living but status.  Here, keeping up with Somchi is not too difficult.  

 

I've never meet an ethical or moral person, it's all money.  Priests/popes are a good example.  

Edited June 15, 2019 by marcusarelus

[Enoon]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

 

In summary- it's common in all places for citizens to want to stretch their retirement money. Nothing immoral about that as long as the expat respects the local customs wherever that maybe.

 

It is economic migration.

 

Something that I also do not consider "immoral".

 

It is the story of the human race.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Enoon

[wwest5829]

On 6/14/2019 at 1:11 PM, meand said:

 

The only real loser in the entire equation is the home country/state and its businesses, who loses out on sales tax and in country purchases. 

And it appears that some countries are trying to exact a penalty for retirees being priced out of their own country.

[Jingthing]

 
It is economic migration.
 
Something that I also do not consider "immoral".
 
 

Yes pretty much.
It could be argued that it would be unethical if you are living abroad without the host nation government's permission or via corrupt methods.
That said if the government in question doesn't really care that would mitigate that.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[mserror]

It is simply a form of trade.

 

Is it ethical for the best durians to be sold to China and the locals get lower quality?

 

In general, trade is good, but specifically there may be downsides.

 

Like everything else, governments can choose.

[Jingthing]

It is simply a form of trade.
 
Is it ethical for the best durians to be sold to China and the locals get lower quality?
 
In general, trade is good, but specifically there may be downsides.
 
Like everything else, governments can choose.

I don't know about that. The durians didn't decide where to travel.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[micmichd]

On 6/14/2019 at 1:11 PM, meand said:

 

The only real loser in the entire equation is the home country/state and its businesses, who loses out on sales tax and in country purchases. 

Who cares? 

They squeezed enough money out of me in the country I came from, and I don't owe them anything. Thailand gets my money now, and that's correct. 

[Golden Triangle]

4 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

You get treated anywhere according to how much money you have.  In my small town here 100,000 baht per month is upper middle class and I get treated accordingly servants and the kids bow when they walk by.  Where I grew up (1950's) $100,000 per month was low to middle class and I got treated accordingly.  1 servant and non boarding prep school and good college but not skull and bones at Yale.   

 

I'd need 3 times the money I make in Thailand to get treated the same in America.  It's not just cost of living but status.  Here, keeping up with Somchi is not too difficult.  

 

I've never meet an ethical or moral person, it's all money.  Priests/popes are a good example.  

I sincerely hope that you are joking, and a very poor joke at that, people (servants) and children bow as they pass you, man that is sick. I don't see any humorous emojis or anything else to indicate a joke.

 

I don't have that much money, enough to live comfortably but not oodles, I have many friends, farang and Thai we respect each other as people not for the money they or I may or may not have.

 

You should be ashamed of yourself, you have just plummeted in my estimation of what a human being is.

 

I feel sick to the pit of my stomach that someone would come on here and spout such shit.

 

[Speedhump]

Just some attempt to make a long thread debating nothing? 

Immoral or unethical? Just shut up now, it's not colonisation, you idiot. 

[marcusarelus]

37 minutes ago, Golden Triangle said:

I sincerely hope that you are joking, and a very poor joke at that, people (servants) and children bow as they pass you, man that is sick. I don't see any humorous emojis or anything else to indicate a joke.

 

I don't have that much money, enough to live comfortably but not oodles, I have many friends, farang and Thai we respect each other as people not for the money they or I may or may not have.

 

You should be ashamed of yourself, you have just plummeted in my estimation of what a human being is.

 

I feel sick to the pit of my stomach that someone would come on here and spout such shit.

I've always had servants.  In wartime I had a house maid and a secretary at work my time was considered too valuable to spend it doing menial tasks.  People bow as they walk past me and try to lower their head so it is lower than mine.  

 

I first got to Thailand in 1968.  Retired here 20 years ago.  I like not having to do many things myself.  I have assistance when I take a shower to prevent me falling and have a massage every day to keep my limbs nimble.  People clean my house and cut my trees.  So did my dad.  

 

At work when I arrived in the morning my staff stood at attention and the department heads all reported.  If I wanted more information I called them in my office.  Since it was a customer service position I checked their dress and sanitation.  

[DJ54]

Live in village up in the NE not been charged more ... well except

ask for pay the bill with money in my pocket. What no Change..

 

The local Tesco Lotus 20ish km away. I once stupidly left

my iPad in the grocery cart. Figured it out after 10 minutes 

headed home. Went in they called the Manager and she 

checked with others and used the microphone (whatever it’s called) If anyone found it no luck. 

 

I went back the next morning as she instructed still no one

turned in I’m freaking out most my business and was on the

iPad. Two days later got a call that it was found that day in the

area of cart small children sit. Not real noticeable. 

 

I was happy beyond belief! Over the moon! They tookpicture of Mgr, Me and the young fella that found it. I tried to give give a nice monetary award for doing the right thing. 

 

They would allow it... i tool the iPad in lieu of the IPhone was easier 

see set in the basket. Made a few friends there and happy to

joke qnd laaugh with them...Good people.

 

the Security like to have a go at me when in ...IPad? Nope. I carry 

the iPhone and reading glass one problem thumb,index and 

pointer on one hand recently have little feeling and if I pick up 

or take out of pocket not remembering. I think I’ve got it but 

don’t. Broke the glass on the Iphone twice. 

 

The shop that replaces the glass said wife again? No the first 

were hers and her tantrums..

 

enjoy life all is good...

 

 

 

[Airalee]

7 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Where I grew up (1950's) $100,000 per month was low to middle class and I got treated accordingly.  1 servant and non boarding prep school and good college but not skull and bones at Yale.   

I’m sorry but this is pure BS.

 

Nowhere in the world at that time were low to middle class people making the equivalent of ฿100,000 per month.  (I assume you meant Baht and not USD).  Average annual household income in 1950 was $3,300.

 

To put costs into perspective, I was born in Manhattan in ‘68.  My dad had purchased his 2100sf coop at 322 Central Park West (I don’t even mind sharing the address) in 1966 or 67 for $28,000

 

Extrapolate from that what you will.

 

And wrt boarding schools...

 

I attended one of the “eight schools” so I know what I’m talking about.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Schools_Association

 

And for JT...Interesting topic.  I moved to Thailand for peace of mind #1 and cost of healthcare #2.  I think people who use geographical/economic arbitrage for the purposes of production using cheap labor to then export back to their home countries are the unethical ones.

 

I do my best to not buy things made with any slave labor.  My electronics (stereo) are all made in either England, Norway and Canada.

 

I even try to buy all my clothing made without “cheap labor”

 

https://www.cityboxers.com/

https://www.buckmason.com/