Putting All The Changes Together...

[Ludacris]

I’m a new poster on here but I’m a long time daily reader. I’ve noticed the old timers that like to flame away as soon as a newbie writes what they think (see the ‘mood on the board deteriorating thread’ that went on for 21 pages) and I’m counting the minutes until someone posts, “This is Thailand and they can do what they want. If you don’t like it leave.” Feel free to disagree but let’s withhold the personal attacks and keep this to a serious discussion as I’m sure I’m not the only one questioning things now. This post is not meant to be anti-Thailand, but rather a collection of changes that I have observed over the past couple years. I first came to Thailand as a tourist many years ago and immediately thought this is the best country I’ve ever been to, and I have been living here the past 2 years now. Although I’ve already gone through the transformation from the “everything is perfect as a tourist” phase to “this is a different country once you start working here” phase, I still realize there’s lots I don’t understand and learn more and more everyday about Thai people and the way of life here. The reason for this post is there have been many changes the past couple years that make life more difficult for almost every foreigner to stay here and enjoy the goods things that Thailand has to offer.

A few things that have happened recently have driven me to post now. The return of internet censorship for 2 days (www.youtube.com was blocked due to some videos that show Thailand in a bad light) while at the same time the Thai gov’t is planning to show streaming video of prisoners which I guess will show Thailand in a favorable light. Also, the recent piss testing, photographing, and interviewing of foreigners has been setting off alarm bells in my head. Combine this with the New Year’s bombs, coup, and military gov’t and I’ve finally found the motivation to make my first real post on here.

It seems that if the gov’t had its way we would all be gone tomorrow but they know that’s not possible. Once I got through my initial tourist phase, I realized that a lot Thai’s just tolerate us and only want our money. Now it seems they don’t even want that anymore and most of the smiles are gone too. The noose is slowly being tightened around all of us and our number will surely decrease over the next few years. Like I said, I originally came here as a tourist and fell in love with Thailand and that’s the reason I came back to work. I have a skill set that is in demand worldwide and make more money than I was making back home but less than I could make in other countries. As the noose keeps tightening it will have the same affect as when a company is going through hard times – the people who are the most skilled jump ship because they can and the ones who have no options stay and eventually get promoted to management because of their seniority. Hence incompetent management at many companies. Soon Thailand is going to lose most of the foreigners it wants to keep and will only have lots of the ones it doesn’t want.

Let’s look at the different types of foreigners in Thailand and how they’ve been affected by changes the past couple years:

1. Tourists:

a.) Families – Let’s face it, Thailand never has and never will be a family tourism destination.

b.) Permanent Tourists – People who were living here on visas on arrival can no longer do so. If it is possible or not to alternate between VOA’s and a tourist visa from an embassy forever is still to be determined.

c.) Shoppers – Most shopping is now more expensive than in neighboring countries, even Japan.

d.) Couples, Singles, Backpackers, etc. – Have now realized Thailand is no longer as fun as it used to be and are not staying as long as they used to. The early closing hours, price increases, piss testing, restaurants refusing to serve alcohol until 5 pm, and off-sales being restricted between 2pm – 5pm have all contributed to this.

e.) Sex Tourists – Well, they will always come no matter what.

2. Property Owners: In the past two years property ownership rules have started being strictly enforced and it is no longer possible for foreigners to own anything other than a brand new condo. And even if you bought that brand new condo with money you earned in Thailand and paid Thai taxes on, you’re still not allowed to send the money outside of Thailand when you sell it since you can’t show the money was brought into Thailand to purchase it.

3. Investors: The previous investor’s visa class has been cancelled. No more investing 3 million baht to get a visa. Also, the new 30% with-holding rule on currency investments caused the stock market to have its greatest crash in history – even greater than during the ’97 crisis. It seems that the new gov’t doesn’t even want our money anymore but they will try their hardest to keep the money we’ve earned here inside Thailand. Try sending money you’ve earned in Thailand overseas to invest on a regular basis – most banks have a policy only allowing regular transfers outside Thailand for family support reasons. I asked the guy at the bank how he would feel if he was making a lot of money in a western country and wanted to send it back to Thailand to buy a house or for other investment reasons and the bank told him he wasn’t allowed to...I didn’t get a reply of course. Bangkok Bank is the only bank I have found that allows regular overseas transfers for investment purposes, but they will of course put a cap on that amount based on your annual income here. If you can’t buy property and don’t want to invest in a business or the SET, sending money overseas for investment is the only alternative.

4. Company Owners: New company ownership rules that will come into effect in two years time will effectively make you lose voting control of your company and put both ownership and financial control into the hands of the Thai’s. Asking someone to invest in a business they can neither own nor control is ridiculous. I count 978 businesses for sale on sunbeltasia.com this evening. How that compares to previous months I don’t know...Good luck to all of you...

5. Teachers: Lots to write about here as I believe this is the job most foreigners working in Thailand have. Earlier this year there was the scare of passing a written exam on Thai culture that never materialized. Then the degree rule in non-gov’t schools was strictly enforced causing many people with families who had been working here to now leave. And now there’s the police check requirement from both Thailand and your home country. I think everyone agrees background checks are a good idea, but the rule has been implemented so haphazardly with so little warning or thought that it’s almost impossible to comply with. Many foreign teachers have already left and will be leaving. I heard from one recruiter that he received the lowest number of native speaker applications for a job posting than in the previous 15 years. Philipino’s are already rushing in to the fill the void and some schools have even started accepting more of them. Just wait until the crackdown on teachers working part-time comes. Every teacher would love to work legally but the gov’t continues to move the goal posts further and further away. Even transferring from working legally at one job to working legally at another job is an absolute nightmare since you’re only given 6 days to leave the country after quitting your old job and have to get the paperwork straight and make the countless trips between immigration and the labor department and satisfy them both before the clock runs out.

6. Retired: The financial requirement has doubled in the past few years from 400,000B to 800,000B. And now that 800,000B has to sit in a bank account for months doing nothing for you. What’s going to happen when they decide to double it again...?

7. Married: The financial requirement for a marriage visa has also doubled in the past few years from 200,000B to 400,000B. There were even rumors that a monthly income must now also be shown but I’m not sure if that’s really the case. These requirements could also increase in the future.

8. Expats from Overseas on Lucrative Contracts: There will always be ex-pats in Thailand working for multi-national companies on short contracts. But Thailand has become a lot less fun for them for the reasons stated above.

I could easily have missed a type of foreigner or gotten some of my facts wrong so please correct me if I made a mistake because I'm sure I'm not the only one who has incorrect information.

So, in my opinion, if things keep going in the direction they have been the past couple years out of these eight types it looks like only the sex tourists and expats at multi-national companies will be the most likely to stay. Anyone want to guess the ratio of sex tourists to the number the expats on lucrative contracts? All of these changes to keep ‘desirable farangs’ in Thailand will actually have the opposite affect as countless expats with other options leave for greener grass. I’m sure most people who live and/or work in Thailand originally came here as a tourist and fell in love with the country because of the many great things Thailand has to offer. If those tourists who come here nowadays don’t enjoy their stay like they used to and quickly move on to other countries and don’t come back here to live, the pool of expats might quickly dry up.

The recent changes by the gov’t and all the instability have made life here much more difficult for just about everyone, and if and when things get too difficult to stay here and it isn’t worth it anymore is a personal decision every one of use will have to make for ourselves...

[peter991]

Very interesting and well-thought out post, OP. I was planning to retire to Thailand in two years' time - but with each passing day, that looks less likely.

Peter

[gummy]

Hi Ludicras, sounds like you are a little depressed and soon will be leaving then with such a great perceived detrioration, and with only 2 years living experience here.

[GuestHouse]

While I don't disagree with much of what you say I think the mistake many make is to dismiss what old timers have as 'flaming'.

If we look at the advice given, not just now after the recent enforcement (it is largely an enforcement of existing laws rather than a change) then it becomes clear that the advice many many old timers have always given remains valid and wise.

"Thailand is a place to spend money, not a place to make money"

"Never bring to Thailand money that you cannot afford to loose"

"Never buy a house/car/land/anything in anyone else’s name unless you are making it a gift to them"

"You can't buy loyalty, not anywhere and certainly not in Thailand"

"Most problems begin by giving something the wrong name"

"The most dangerous liar is one who lies to himself"

When we read or hear of the problems people have in Thailand they have often ignored one or more of the above golden nuggets.... very often they have ignored them all.

Edited March 12, 2007 by GuestHouse

[Austhaied]

Very well said Ludacris. Yes it is ludicrous. I agree it will have the opposite affect of what they are trying to achieve. These people couldn't run a warm bath little alone a government.. I am planning my way out as we speak..

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

A well reasoned first post.

I was a teacher for 2.5 years here and have recently started a private business. There's no 'low hanging fruit' for sure, but despite the negatives, the quality of my life is still superior to what I had back in London. For the time being.

For sure, there have been many changes in my small time here, but this country is very 'short termist' in almost every facet of its being - things can very easily change for the better tomorrow. I hope they do. If not, well, like you said, we must all cross that bridge when (and if) we come to it.

It can be a painful wake up call when your life in paradise becomes as difficult and laborious as the sh*thole you left behind.

Good luck in your chosen career and country,

James

[jaidam]

Thanks ludacris, you summed it up well. Guesthouse also does a good job. I think those 2 posts compliment each other nicely.

[jdinasia]

I’m a new poster on here but I’m a long time daily reader. I’ve noticed the old timers that like to flame away as soon as a newbie writes what they think (see the ‘mood on the board deteriorating thread’ that went on for 21 pages) and I’m counting the minutes until someone posts, “This is Thailand and they can do what they want. If you don’t like it leave.” Feel free to disagree but let’s withhold the personal attacks and keep this to a serious discussion as I’m sure I’m not the only one questioning things now. This post is not meant to be anti-Thailand, but rather a collection of changes that I have observed over the past couple years. I first came to Thailand as a tourist many years ago and immediately thought this is the best country I’ve ever been to, and I have been living here the past 2 years now. Although I’ve already gone through the transformation from the “everything is perfect as a tourist” phase to “this is a different country once you start working here” phase, I still realize there’s lots I don’t understand and learn more and more everyday about Thai people and the way of life here. The reason for this post is there have been many changes the past couple years that make life more difficult for almost every foreigner to stay here and enjoy the goods things that Thailand has to offer.

A few things that have happened recently have driven me to post now. The return of internet censorship for 2 days (www.youtube.com was blocked due to some videos that show Thailand in a bad light) while at the same time the Thai gov’t is planning to show streaming video of prisoners which I guess will show Thailand in a favorable light. Also, the recent piss testing, photographing, and interviewing of foreigners has been setting off alarm bells in my head. Combine this with the New Year’s bombs, coup, and military gov’t and I’ve finally found the motivation to make my first real post on here.

It seems that if the gov’t had its way we would all be gone tomorrow but they know that’s not possible. Once I got through my initial tourist phase, I realized that a lot Thai’s just tolerate us and only want our money. Now it seems they don’t even want that anymore and most of the smiles are gone too. The noose is slowly being tightened around all of us and our number will surely decrease over the next few years. Like I said, I originally came here as a tourist and fell in love with Thailand and that’s the reason I came back to work. I have a skill set that is in demand worldwide and make more money than I was making back home but less than I could make in other countries. As the noose keeps tightening it will have the same affect as when a company is going through hard times – the people who are the most skilled jump ship because they can and the ones who have no options stay and eventually get promoted to management because of their seniority. Hence incompetent management at many companies. Soon Thailand is going to lose most of the foreigners it wants to keep and will only have lots of the ones it doesn’t want.

Let’s look at the different types of foreigners in Thailand and how they’ve been affected by changes the past couple years:

1. Tourists:

a.) Families – Let’s face it, Thailand never has and never will be a family tourism destination.

WRONG ---- Families are a large part of the tourism Biz here

b.) Permanent Tourists – People who were living here on visas on arrival can no longer do so. If it is possible or not to alternate between VOA’s and a tourist visa from an embassy forever is still to be determined.

These folks were tolerated ... but they were never "legal" They scootd by on loopholes

c.) Shoppers – Most shopping is now more expensive than in neighboring countries, even Japan.

True for some things ..... but shopping will always be big here

d.) Couples, Singles, Backpackers, etc. – Have now realized Thailand is no longer as fun as it used to be and are not staying as long as they used to. The early closing hours, price increases, piss testing, restaurants refusing to serve alcohol until 5 pm, and off-sales being restricted between 2pm – 5pm have all contributed to this.

Pretty much outside of a few areas ... little of this happens or exists ....

e.) Sex Tourists – Well, they will always come no matter what.

Why? Cheaper places exist

2. Property Owners: In the past two years property ownership rules have started being strictly enforced and it is no longer possible for foreigners to own anything other than a brand new condo. And even if you bought that brand new condo with money you earned in Thailand and paid Thai taxes on, you’re still not allowed to send the money outside of Thailand when you sell it since you can’t show the money was brought into Thailand to purchase it.

Innaccurate ... Foriegners can buy existing condos

3. Investors: The previous investor’s visa class has been cancelled. No more investing 3 million baht to get a visa. Also, the new 30% with-holding rule on currency investments caused the stock market to have its greatest crash in history – even greater than during the ’97 crisis. It seems that the new gov’t doesn’t even want our money anymore but they will try their hardest to keep the money we’ve earned here inside Thailand. Try sending money you’ve earned in Thailand overseas to invest on a regular basis – most banks have a policy only allowing regular transfers outside Thailand for family support reasons. I asked the guy at the bank how he would feel if he was making a lot of money in a western country and wanted to send it back to Thailand to buy a house or for other investment reasons and the bank told him he wasn’t allowed to...I didn’t get a reply of course. Bangkok Bank is the only bank I have found that allows regular overseas transfers for investment purposes, but they will of course put a cap on that amount based on your annual income here. If you can’t buy property and don’t want to invest in a business or the SET, sending money overseas for investment is the only alternative.

Faulty logic here ... but so far the most accurate

4. Company Owners: New company ownership rules that will come into effect in two years time will effectively make you lose voting control of your company and put both ownership and financial control into the hands of the Thai’s. Asking someone to invest in a business they can neither own nor control is ridiculous. I count 978 businesses for sale on sunbeltasia.com this evening. How that compares to previous months I don’t know...Good luck to all of you...

again not accurate but at least in the right direction! Biz is still being done here nd biz's opening and closing ... and being bought and sold

5. Teachers: Lots to write about here as I believe this is the job most foreigners working in Thailand have. Earlier this year there was the scare of passing a written exam on Thai culture that never materialized. Then the degree rule in non-gov’t schools was strictly enforced causing many people with families who had been working here to now leave. And now there’s the police check requirement from both Thailand and your home country. I think everyone agrees background checks are a good idea, but the rule has been implemented so haphazardly with so little warning or thought that it’s almost impossible to comply with. Many foreign teachers have already left and will be leaving. I heard from one recruiter that he received the lowest number of native speaker applications for a job posting than in the previous 15 years. Philipino’s are already rushing in to the fill the void and some schools have even started accepting more of them. Just wait until the crackdown on teachers working part-time comes. Every teacher would love to work legally but the gov’t continues to move the goal posts further and further away. Even transferring from working legally at one job to working legally at another job is an absolute nightmare since you’re only given 6 days to leave the country after quitting your old job and have to get the paperwork straight and make the countless trips between immigration and the labor department and satisfy them both before the clock runs out.

Sorry ... not a teacher ... but much of your premise here is based on an extension of stay on a single entry visa .. not accurate if people have other visas

6. Retired: The financial requirement has doubled in the past few years from 400,000B to 800,000B. And now that 800,000B has to sit in a bank account for months doing nothing for you. What’s going to happen when they decide to double it again...?

wanting retirees to have $20,000 USD a year is not crazy .... more wouldn't be either!

7. Married: The financial requirement for a marriage visa has also doubled in the past few years from 200,000B to 400,000B. There were even rumors that a monthly income must now also be shown but I’m not sure if that’s really the case. These requirements could also increase in the future.

not really part of the picture --- you can use your Thai spouse's income as part or all of it.

8. Expats from Overseas on Lucrative Contracts: There will always be ex-pats in Thailand working for multi-national companies on short contracts. But Thailand has become a lot less fun for them for the reasons stated above.

I could easily have missed a type of foreigner or gotten some of my facts wrong so please correct me if I made a mistake because I'm sure I'm not the only one who has incorrect information.

So, in my opinion, if things keep going in the direction they have been the past couple years out of these eight types it looks like only the sex tourists and expats at multi-national companies will be the most likely to stay. Anyone want to guess the ratio of sex tourists to the number the expats on lucrative contracts? All of these changes to keep ‘desirable farangs’ in Thailand will actually have the opposite affect as countless expats with other options leave for greener grass. I’m sure most people who live and/or work in Thailand originally came here as a tourist and fell in love with the country because of the many great things Thailand has to offer. If those tourists who come here nowadays don’t enjoy their stay like they used to and quickly move on to other countries and don’t come back here to live, the pool of expats might quickly dry up.

The recent changes by the gov’t and all the instability have made life here much more difficult for just about everyone, and if and when things get too difficult to stay here and it isn’t worth it anymore is a personal decision every one of use will have to make for ourselves...

I'll stick around for awhile

[cdnvic]

a.) Families – Let’s face it, Thailand never has and never will be a family tourism destination.

While I'd agree regarding the red light areas, the rest of the country is amazing and offers alot more adventure for families than just a week at the beach

c.) Shoppers – Most shopping is now more expensive than in neighboring countries, even Japan.

Not even close. Where are you getting these comparisons from, and can you give some examples?

d.) Couples, Singles, Backpackers, etc. – Have now realized Thailand is no longer as fun as it used to be and are not staying as long as they used to. The early closing hours, price increases, piss testing, restaurants refusing to serve alcohol until 5 pm, and off-sales being restricted between 2pm – 5pm have all contributed to this.

This may be, but it's by no means proven.

Also, the new 30% with-holding rule on currency investments caused the stock market to have its greatest crash in history

This is the most bizarre financial move I've seen a govt make in years.

Lots to write about here as I believe this is the job ((teaching)) most foreigners working in Thailand have.

Again, you're making a broad statement with no evidence to back it up.

I could easily have missed a type of foreigner or gotten some of my facts wrong so please correct me if I made a mistake because I'm sure I'm not the only one who has incorrect information.

I think you're right on many counts, but you are also making a lot of assumptions.

So, in my opinion, if things keep going in the direction they have been the past couple years out of these eight types it looks like only the sex tourists and expats at multi-national companies will be the most likely to stay. Anyone want to guess the ratio of sex tourists to the number the expats on lucrative contracts? All of these changes to keep ‘desirable farangs’ in Thailand will actually have the opposite affect as countless expats with other options leave for greener grass. I’m sure most people who live and/or work in Thailand originally came here as a tourist and fell in love with the country because of the many great things Thailand has to offer. If those tourists who come here nowadays don’t enjoy their stay like they used to and quickly move on to other countries and don’t come back here to live, the pool of expats might quickly dry up.

The recent changes by the gov’t and all the instability have made life here much more difficult for just about everyone, and if and when things get too difficult to stay here and it isn’t worth it anymore is a personal decision every one of use will have to make for ourselves...

The expats and tourists have been here through coups, economic crashes, and days when roving bandits used to rob busloads of travellers. Don't underestimate Thailand's ability to draw people.

And welcome to Thaivisa.

Edited March 12, 2007 by cdnvic

[JacknDanny]

While I don't disagree with much of what you say I think the mistake many make is to dismiss what old timers have as 'flaming'.

If we look at the advice given, not just now after the recent enforcement (it is largely an enforcement of existing laws rather than a change) then it becomes clear that the advice many many old timers have always given remains valid and wise.

"Thailand is a place to spend money, not a place to make money"

"Never bring to Thailand money that you cannot afford to loose"

"Never buy a house/car/land/anything in anyone else’s name unless you are making it a gift to them"

"You can't buy loyalty, not anywhere and certainly not in Thailand"

"Most problems begin by giving something the wrong name"

"The most dangerous liar is one who lies to himself"

When we read or hear of the problems people have in Thailand they have often ignored one or more of the above golden nuggets.... very often they have ignored them all.

I think anyone contemplating coming to Thailand on a permanent basis should print the above and memorise it.

Living here can be great if all the above points are remembered

[dantilley]

My responses are pretty much in line with CDNVic on most things there, especially the fact that Thailand is a great family holiday destination.

Also you only mentioned expats working for multinational companies here on short contracts, and teachers. What about the many expats who are non-teaching employees? Not company owners either, but employees on a salary doing "normal", non-teaching jobs, who have come out here and found work without needing to be posted here on a short assignment. I'm in that position now and I hope to be so for the foreseeable future at least; Thailand is probably the most enjoyable, fascinating place I've ever lived.

[PeaceBlondie]

I'll try to limit my remarks to teachers, but much of the OP (and comments from GuestHouse and others) is spot on.

I've only been here slightly less than four years. I never quite believed KenKaniff's insistence that nothing was engraved in stone, it all depended, and we'd been down this road before, etc. But I do think it has gotten much worse, with absolutely no official information that's worth a satang. Repeat: nothing said by the authorities for teachers about work permits, visas, visa runs, teacher licenses, culture exam, degree requirements, B.Ed. requirements, etc. - is worth the paper it's lied upon. The most minimal communication that usually occurs between farang teachers and school administrators, shows extremely limited concern for the foreigner, and almost total ignorance of his plight.

I'm staying because I don't need to teach. The married farang teachers, however, are trapped here.

[meom]

The reason for this post is there have been many changes the past couple years that make life more difficult for almost every foreigner to stay here and enjoy the goods things that Thailand has to offer.

I think there have been many good changes over the years as well such as metered taxi's, better healthcare, skytrain & underground in BKK, a lot more bars and happy hours, a lot more people that can speak English, a bigger variety of condo's, availability of condoms that actually fit, a lot more tourist information centers all over the country, besides cheap shopping a lot more expensive shopping available, more choice of food (at least in BKK) and probably other things that I can't think of right now.

[solo siam]

Shopping is more expensive in Thailand than in Japan?

I like the changes that they are making, hopefully it will make it harder for those who don't actually bring much to teh table here. Seriously showing 800,000 baht in a bank account, if its that hard to do that after retiring how on earthcan you afford to migrate and live here?

Realistically, its not the wealthy, middle-class or even average foreigner that these new requirements are going to force out, its going to be the football hooligan, criminal and aimless that will be forced to leave.

As to the stock market crash, it hasn't really had an effect seeing as the baht is getting stronger and stronger (opposite to 97 BTW).

[Ijustwannateach]

Depends on how much of Thailand's economy is supposed to keep riding on tourism- I don't have enough knowledge of the figures. Also depends on who the money from the mass tourism market is going towards- have the feeling that a lot of it goes to people at the lower end of the scale whom the high muckety-mucks who make the rules don't care much about.

I've a friend who comes here very often from a much more expensive country who thinks his visits will be more limited in the future because of the various expenses increasing, and he's far from the bottom-of-the-barrel tourist.

However, I'm still here, and my life wouldn't completely collapse if I had to move somewhere else... and it's doing better, ironically, than in all the previous years I've been here- though I know that in many ways I'm an exception among teachers rather than the rule.

"S"

[andook]

Good opening post, and some very good advice and perspective from Guesthouse too.

I suppose the move from tourist to resident is where disillusionment sets in for a lot of people. The exotic becomes the humdrum, and minor irritations become mountains.

I would always have a "Plan B" prepared for life in any country other than my own.

[bendix]

Good first post, although the comment about streaming of prisoners is wrong: that was a story from 2005 (check the date of the thread) and it never materialised and never would, i'm sure.

However, I've got to agree with cdnvic's responses by and large.

As with all things, you've got to balance the good and the bad and make a balanced decision. All developing countries go through periods of upheaval and Thailand is no different to them - it is, still, a developing country after all. What we are seeing now is the political aftermath of a military coup, the latest in a long line. Silly political and financial decisions (censorship, the 30% rule etc) are inevitable. Such silly laws have happened before and will happen again.

Is life in Thailand any harder now for the average farang than when I arrived two and a half years ago. I personally don't see it; it might be for the long-term visa-runner or the non-qualified teacher, but you can't blame any country for wanting to tidy up those kind of things.

I take a simpler perspective here. What are the alternatives? I have no desire to live in my home countries at this stage of my life, and other options around Asia can't hold a candle to Thailand, current issues notwithstanding.

Thailand will ALWAYS attract a wide range of tourists, most of whom don't give a ###### (or even know) about the political situation. They see the weather, the beaches, the sights and - yes - the nightlife for a certain section of them, and will come regardless. I don't think there are any worries there.

And finally on costs. I'm sorry, but you ruined your argument by claiming Thailand is becoming more expensive that most of its neighbours, even Japan. Huh? Could you back that up please? My job takes me 14 cities in 9 countries in Aisa on a regular basis. With the exception of Philippines, I can't think of another country as cheap as Thailand on just about anything I want to spend my money on - accomodation, meals, transportation, going out. Certain things are more expensive, sure. But generally speaking, it remains one of the cheapest destinations in Asia.

[dantilley]

And finally on costs. I'm sorry, but you ruined your argument by claiming Thailand is becoming more expensive that most of its neighbours, even Japan. Huh? Could you back that up please? My job takes me 14 cities in 9 countries in Aisa on a regular basis. With the exception of Philippines, I can't think of another country as cheap as Thailand on just about anything I want to spend my money on - accomodation, meals, transportation, going out. Certain things are more expensive, sure. But generally speaking, it remains one of the cheapest destinations in Asia.

Agreed, particularly about accommodation, which is of the best standard and best value I've found anywhere. This will also help maintain the already thriving tourist industry, naturally.

[qwertz]

To OP Ludicras: from my experiences as an expat in various European countries you address a universal problem here, yours has just a little Asian flavour. When I gained a precarious foothold in the former communist Germany I ran into lots of antipathy, not the least about what the English did in WW2, which I fortunately missed and how I was stealing work from the unemployed. It's the same everywhere if you choose to emigrate; the human element will always creep in and it's up to you to fit in with them and their ways. I do however find your comments very salient as I'm due to retire soon and LOS is also not my first choice as my next home. With that much said, I've lost count of my trips there and I never fail to have a good chill out and lots of fun. Your post is a word of caution though to anyone thinking it's open house and Shangrila for people who want to settle there with a limited budget like mine because perhaps one in a thousand of you will actually prosper financially there. Take heed, I've seen many a bitter failure limp home.

[Ludacris]

Thanks to everyone who has responded so far for keeping this thread on topic and avoiding the personal attacks. It’s refreshing to see a lot of optimism and understanding towards the current situation. Some improvements in Thailand over the past couple years have been pointed out and I couldn’t agree more. Ironically, I actually benefit to some degree as foreigners leave because it increases my job security. Whether or not that increase in job security offsets the seemingly never-ending increase in disadvantages in the long run I’ll have to see.

Guesthouse made an excellent post and I wonder how many of us have been able to follow all of the ‘rules’...

My point about shopping is such a small part of my overall argument but its generated the most disagreement so let me explain. I didn’t say Thailand is more expensive in general than neighboring countries, all I was trying to say is that most big ticket items that people often travel to another country for the sole purpose of purchasing (shopping tourism) are more expensive in Thailand. For example, electronics (much more expensive in Thailand than in Singapore or HK) and designer clothes (just as expensive as or more expensive than in Korea or Japan). I doubt many people travel to Thailand for the sole purpose of shopping like they do with other countries.

Regarding the 800,000B requirement for a retirement visa. I totally agree that Thailand needs to have a financial requirement for this type of visa, I just think it’s ridiculous to keep increasing the amount and require that money to sit in a Thai bank account doing nothing for you.

Ben, I have to disagree with you. I think it’s exactly the middle and upper class foreigners these rules will force out because these are the ones with the skills and options to leave. I doubt if criminals and lowlifes who are already breaking the law will be affected at all and they also don't have a lot of other options. Investors, business owners, retirees, and teachers are not hooligans or criminals. They each help Thailand in their own way. It’s been pointed out that Thailand is still a developing country and should provide incentives to encourage these types of foreigners to come to Thailand and not keep putting up walls or moving the goal posts. For example, most western countries have quite a difficult and lengthy immigration process, but if you have skills that are in demand (ex. nurses or doctors) you’re welcomed with open arms. Not so in Thailand. The new gov’t has made it very clear it doesn’t want your skills or your money.

Dantilly mentioned another type of expat that I forgot and I have a question for everyone in that situation. If you can’t really buy property, don’t want to own a business, and don’t want to invest in the SET due to the instability, what do people in your situation do with your money?

Edited March 13, 2007 by Ludacris

[Pakboong]

I have been in and out of Thailand for 35 years. I have lived here this trip for 5 years and hope to die here. There have been the good and bad times and at risk of sounding like a complete whacko, I offer some thoughts on this subject as they were provided me in 1975 after the Americans pulled out. Most thought the reason we left was the end of the war in Viet Nam. An easy conclusion to draw but, the US actually wanted to stay here and were asked to leave.

The US govt never entered into what is called a status of forces agreement with Thailand. The Americans were simply allowed to improve the country's infrastructure in the many billions of dollars and up and left it all here in 1975. Most of Thailand's air fields and deep water ports were built by the Americans. Even Don Maung housed a US airforce base which paid for the maintenance for over 10 years. Roads and Dams were built. up and down the county.

I am back in US in 1975 and am attendng military schoolng with several foreigners to include a couple of Thais. Since I had a Thai wife, I invited the Thais to dinner at my apartment where one of them offered thoughts on why the Americans were asked to leave. He offered many thoughts and adjends as reasons but he insisted that the over-riiding factor had to do with empowering the poor to an unacceptable degree. He referred at the time to the urban professional as a category of Thais who were being hurt by the recenty empowered rural poor who had been paid by the American Government at 10 times what he/she would be paid in a comparable Thai Company. The October 13 , 1973 riots were blamed by many on the Americans empowering the rural poor.

At the time, I really didn't have much of an interest in all this and it pretty much went in one ear and out the other. But now, some 32 years later, the pieces all seem to fit. We are empowering the poor to an unacceptable degree. We are buying houses and moving in right next door to that same urban professional. And, we are doing it with our Issan GFs and BFs. An educated Thai from a good family lives in fear that his next door neighbor will be one of these mixed relationships. Since I was in one of these relationships at the time, I could't say much and he was quite apologetic about not pointing a finger at me for bringing one these rural poor women home with me. Her father stopped farming rice for 10 years of work with the US Army building roads and dams. When the Americans left, he just became one of the may village drunks. He never farmed rice again.

The fellow who offered me these thoughts went on to become a politician and although we didn't keep in contact I think of his words as these times develop.

[jdinasia]

Thanks to everyone who has responded so far for keeping this thread on topic and avoiding the personal attacks. It’s refreshing to see a lot of optimism and understanding towards the current situation. Some improvements in Thailand over the past couple years have been pointed out and I couldn’t agree more. Ironically, I actually benefit to some degree as foreigners leave because it increases my job security. Whether or not that increase in job security offsets the seemingly never-ending increase in disadvantages in the long run I’ll have to see.

Guesthouse made an excellent post and I wonder how many of us have been able to follow all of the ‘rules’...

My point about shopping is such a small part of my overall argument but its generated the most disagreement so let me explain. I didn’t say Thailand is more expensive in general than neighboring countries, all I was trying to say is that most big ticket items that people often travel to another country for the sole purpose of purchasing (shopping tourism) are more expensive in Thailand. For example, electronics (much more expensive in Thailand than in Singapore or HK) and designer clothes (just as expensive as or more expensive than in Korea or Japan). I doubt many people travel to Thailand for the sole purpose of shopping like they do with other countries.

Regarding the 800,000B requirement for a retirement visa. I totally agree that Thailand needs to have a financial requirement for this type of visa, I just think it’s ridiculous to keep increasing the amount and require that money to sit in a Thai bank account doing nothing for you.

Keep increasing? when was it increased to from 400K baht to 800K baht? after the Baht floated? before the baht floated the baht was pegged at 25/1USD (that was 16,000 USD) and at 40/1 it became 20kUSD. The rule about having it here 3 months is an attempt to prevent the folks that were borrowing $$ and then giving it back to meet the requirement from doing so in the future. Note that wou are qualifying on the monthly amount .... this isn't the situation at all

Ben, I have to disagree with you. I think it’s exactly the middle and upper class foreigners these rules will force out because these are the ones with the skills and options to leave. I doubt if criminals and lowlifes who are already breaking the law will be affected at all and they also don't have a lot of other options. Investors, business owners, retirees, and teachers are not hooligans or criminals. They each help Thailand in their own way. It’s been pointed out that Thailand is still a developing country and should provide incentives to encourage these types of foreigners to come to Thailand and not keep putting up walls or moving the goal posts. For example, most western countries have quite a difficult and lengthy immigration process, but if you have skills that are in demand (ex. nurses or doctors) you’re welcomed with open arms. Not so in Thailand. The new gov’t has made it very clear it doesn’t want your skills or your money.

Dantilly mentioned another type of expat that I forgot and I have a question for everyone in that situation. If you can’t really buy property, don’t want to own a business, and don’t want to invest in the SET due to the instability, what do people in your situation do with your money?

Personally I KNOW Dr's from the EU and US that are here ... no problems ... quite welcome

High ticket shopping? Yeah ... Fur Coats and REAL Tag's are as pricey here <or more so> than anywhere else!

[dantilley]

Dantilly mentioned another type of expat that I forgot and I have a question for everyone in that situation. If you can’t really buy property, don’t want to own a business, and don’t want to invest in the SET due to the instability, what do people in your situation do with your money?

For now, spend some, save some - simple as that really. If I want to invest a significant amount amount, i.e. if I accumulate a large amount of cash here, I can send some back home and invest it there. I have no desire to make a very large purchase (e.g. house, business, etc.) at this stage in my life so I'm happy carrying on the way I am.

[Helene]

I am back in US in 1975 and am attendng military schoolng with several foreigners to include a couple of Thais. Since I had a Thai wife, I invited the Thais to dinner at my apartment where one of them offered thoughts on why the Americans were asked to leave. He offered many thoughts and adjends as reasons but he insisted that the over-riiding factor had to do with empowering the poor to an unacceptable degree. He referred at the time to the urban professional as a category of Thais who were being hurt by the recenty empowered rural poor who had been paid by the American Government at 10 times what he/she would be paid in a comparable Thai Company. The October 13 , 1973 riots were blamed by many on the Americans empowering the rural poor.

At the time, I really didn't have much of an interest in all this and it pretty much went in one ear and out the other. But now, some 32 years later, the pieces all seem to fit. We are empowering the poor to an unacceptable degree.

I agree with you Pakboong. I live in an area with a huge expat population. The Thai maids and drivers here earn more than double the average wage. Many of them earn more than the starting salary of a university graduate. They receive benefits that are similar to a western employee (public holidays off, paid overtime, annual leave). My maid, (who's a real gem) worked for a farang family before mine and when my husband's contract is finished and we leave, she would look for a position with another expat family. She would most likely never work for a Thai family again, unless of course she is offered similar salary and benefits.

[jasreeve17]

This is an interesting thread.

It has a couple of my least favourite contributors and a couple of my favourite contributors. - that's what Thai visa is about.

(Guesthouse is both! He is a great contributor, with great knowledge, and great forum skills. Even when he is clearly wrong he can seem correct! A highly skilled, and confusing gent that I try to learn from - and do respect.)

My feeling is that Thailand is a great holiday destination, and a dream.

But, in reality it is the same as anywhere that you live. Good and bad. The good is great, because it is different from, and better than, the good things that I know. The bad is awful, because it is worse and more ridiculous than the bad things that I know.

I'm a European, and Asia is a huge draw to me, but oh so different.

Jason