UK Labour's trade union backers support second referendum onBrexit deal

[puipuitom]

6 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Asking the electorate will be the only way out of the impasse."

 

At this point, I'm inclined to agree - as long as the options asked are:-

 

1) Accept the boris/hunt (whoever is elected as PM) 'deal'

2) Leave without the eu 'deal'

Why you reject any test of the public about which Brexit they prefer ?

Starts from: Remain, May's deal, Norway deal, Canada agreement, Boris/Hunts's deal ( if ever), No deal.

Or.. are you afraid the British public finally discovered in which trap they were lied into ?

[puipuitom]

5 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Not a big fan of Unions (Though did go out on strike once to support colleagues at that time) but in this instance it would seem that they are doing what they think is best for their members as there is no doubt that (at least over the short-medium term) Brexit (especially a No-Deal Brexit) will have a significant impact on the economy & therefore their members jobs.

 

Would be interesting to see a breakdown of the Brexit vote in terms of Un-employed, employed, retired 

I would also add: after 1 Jan 2020 expected to be unemployed.

Bye-the-way: from Borne, NL, thanks for the production of the Mini car soon here.

[welovesundaysatspace]

3 hours ago, jesimps said:

They've already asked the electorate and remainers refuse to accept the democratic result.

Not true. 

3 hours ago, jesimps said:

Also if Brexit were binned, that would be the end of democracy in the UK as we know it.

Not true. 

[vogie]

26 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

Why you reject any test of the public about which Brexit they prefer ?

Starts from: Remain, May's deal, Norway deal, Canada agreement, Boris/Hunts's deal ( if ever), No deal.

Or.. are you afraid the British public finally discovered in which trap they were lied into ?

Brexit is not like a box of chocolates, where we can say I'll have the one with a nut in, the EU have said there is one deal, Mays Deal, it will not be altered or opened. Mays deal has been through the grinder 3 times now, it was not a good deal then, it is not a good deal now, therefore it leaves the UK with very little choice now does it?

Posters use expressions like "Or.. are you afraid" when they are trying to flame other posters. It is likely that the leavers were lied to even more than the remainers, and they still lost.

[Nigel Garvie]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

Brexit is not like a box of chocolates, where we can say I'll have the one with a nut in, the EU have said there is one deal, Mays Deal, it will not be altered or opened. Mays deal has been through the grinder 3 times now, it was not a good deal then, it is not a good deal now, therefore it leaves the UK with very little choice now does it?

Posters use expressions like "Or.. are you afraid" when they are trying to flame other posters. It is likely that the leavers were lied to even more than the remainers, and they still lost.

I'm glad that you recognize that "the leavers were lied to even more than the remainers". That was a huge part of the problem then, and remains so now, because so many leavers still believe the lies they were told. To follow that with "And they still lost" is a bit of a non sequitur. The ones who were lied to the most were deceived into voting against their best interests, and there were enough of them to help them win the vote.

[Nigel Garvie]

1 hour ago, Thingamabob said:

You Guv reporting 60% plus.

I have checked the YouGov statistics (Again) and I can't see this figure anywhere for Labour Leavers. YouGov relevant statistics are shown below, it shows 35% of Labour voters voted leave. Recent statistics show that the LP lost the vast majority of their support to the Libs and the Greens at the EU elections. Reaching the figure of 60% requires a flight of fancy of Himalayan proportions, might I suggest a career writing fairy stories.

 

What the stats do clearly show is that the older you are, the more right wing you are, and the less well educated you are, the more likely you are to have voted for Brexit. Alf Garnett would have been proud of the result.

[billd766]

33 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I'm glad that you recognize that "the leavers were lied to even more than the remainers". That was a huge part of the problem then, and remains so now, because so many leavers still believe the lies they were told. To follow that with "And they still lost" is a bit of a non sequitur. The ones who were lied to the most were deceived into voting against their best interests, and there were enough of them to help them win the vote.

How do you KNOW they voted against their best interests? Have you personally talked to even 1% of the leavers are are you believing in what the polls/papers/TV news etc have been saying?

 

You are just making assumptions that you cannot back up.

[Nigel Garvie]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

How do you KNOW they voted against their best interests? Have you personally talked to even 1% of the leavers are are you believing in what the polls/papers/TV news etc have been saying?

 

You are just making assumptions that you cannot back up.

Talking to 1% of the leavers would require c. 170,000 conversations, I'm sorry I don't have the time. I have talked to some leavers though.

It is not an assumption, it is view based on two pieces of information. 1) Brexit (According to the overwhelming majority of economists, businessmen,  and the governments own figures) is going to have a serious negative effect on our economy. 2) Many people, poor people in particular who had suffered Tory austerity, voted leave, because they were persuaded that their lot would be improved. In the current circumstances that appears extremely unlikely, certainly in the short to medium term. They were therefore voting against their best interests. Q.E.D.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Talking to 1% of the leavers would require c. 170,000 conversations, I'm sorry I don't have the time. I have talked to some leavers though.

It is not an assumption, it is view based on two pieces of information. 1) Brexit (According to the overwhelming majority of economists, businessmen,  and the governments own figures) is going to have a serious negative effect on our economy. 2) Many people, poor people in particular who had suffered Tory austerity, voted leave, because they were persuaded that their lot would be improved. In the current circumstances that appears extremely unlikely, certainly in the short to medium term. They were therefore voting against their best interests. Q.E.D.

I call it the rema syndrome, some remainers make wild assertions, post them on line and hope nobody notices. Mostly found on Brexit threads because they don't have anything else, when asked to back these assertions, they either say 'you look for it, it is not my job' or don't reply at all, some might even use Q.E.D. ????

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Talking to 1% of the leavers would require c. 170,000 conversations, I'm sorry I don't have the time. I have talked to some leavers though.

It is not an assumption, it is view based on two pieces of information. 1) Brexit (According to the overwhelming majority of economists, businessmen,  and the governments own figures) is going to have a serious negative effect on our economy. 2) Many people, poor people in particular who had suffered Tory austerity, voted leave, because they were persuaded that their lot would be improved. In the current circumstances that appears extremely unlikely, certainly in the short to medium term. They were therefore voting against their best interests. Q.E.D.

No they were NOT voting against their best interests just because you say they were. I will repeat my question.

 

Who says they were voting against their best interests?

 

I certainly wasn't nor were quite a few of the people I know in the UK.

 

You can assume what you wish about how people voted, but that does not mean that you are correct.

[Nigel Garvie]

16 minutes ago, billd766 said:

No they were NOT voting against their best interests just because you say they were. I will repeat my question.

 

Who says they were voting against their best interests?

 

I certainly wasn't nor were quite a few of the people I know in the UK.

 

You can assume what you wish about how people voted, but that does not mean that you are correct.

Well I said they were voting against their best interests of course, it's my opinion. I believe this reflects the information I receive, in the same manner that most posters form their opinions. OK you call it an assumption, I call it an extrapolation or whatever, I guess neither of us will lose any sleep over it. ???? 

[nauseus]

Well now. Corbyn finally broke down. Should lose Labour at least another 2 million votes unless this hacks into the Lib Dems. 

 

Labour to back Remain as it calls for a new EU referendum

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48919695

Edited July 9, 2019 by nauseus

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Brexit is not like a box of chocolates, where we can say I'll have the one with a nut in, the EU have said there is one deal, Mays Deal, it will not be altered or opened.

You could be fair to the people and ask them if they want to have the box of shxt that you sold them pretending it would be nice Belgian Pralinés, rather than telling them they have to accept everything that’s a little brown pile. Now as it’s clear what your box of chocolates may include (and what not) that’d be the only sensible thing to do, and the only thing to not do so is that you know that many people would rather not take that box knowing it’ll be shxt inside the one way or the other. 

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

You could be fair to the people and ask them if they want to have the box of shxt that you sold them pretending it would be nice Belgian Pralinés, rather than telling them they have to accept everything that’s a little brown pile. Now as it’s clear what your box of chocolates may include (and what not) that’d be the only sensible thing to do, and the only thing to not do so is that you know that many people would rather not take that box knowing it’ll be shxt inside the one way or the other. 

It is not me that is offering the box of chocolates, it is the EU and when we look at the box it says 'Quality Street,' but when we look in the box all the chocolates are nougat, and nobody likes nougat. So that is our choice, nougat or we seek turkish delight, full of eastern promise.

[evadgib]

As 3x labour peers have just resigned over anti-semitism this is nothing more than a diversion.

[Baerboxer]

14 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Traitors to true Labour voters and people. Labour has become champagne socialists that really are middle class or liberal lefties.

The one bonus in all this that Labour has lost 60% plus voters who voted leave in the referendum. They will never get a majority in parliament, even if they won the next GE and with Corbyn at the helm, no chance in my opinion.

 

You are guessing that all the Labor voters who voted to leave the UK a) haven't changed their minds and b) would ditch the Labor party, and all it's other policies they support because of it.

 

Some guess. 

[Baerboxer]

5 hours ago, puipuitom said:

Why you reject any test of the public about which Brexit they prefer ?

Starts from: Remain, May's deal, Norway deal, Canada agreement, Boris/Hunts's deal ( if ever), No deal.

Or.. are you afraid the British public finally discovered in which trap they were lied into ?

 

Because like all Bexiters he wants to pretend that the advisory referendum was a once in a life-time, never to be repeated, can't ever be challenged cast in stone must be done result.

 

They can't face the reality that many might have seen through the lies.

[Baerboxer]

9 hours ago, jesimps said:

They've already asked the electorate and remainers refuse to accept the democratic result. Also if Brexit were binned, that would be the end of democracy in the UK as we know it.

 

Utter complete nonsense. You demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge of the actual representative democracy employed in the UK. Do you have the slightest idea why the referendum was advisory and can only be advisory, regardless of what incompetent former PM's and various assorted self interested politicians say?

[Loiner]

I'm glad that you recognize that "the leavers were lied to even more than the remainers".

Yep, Cameron Clegg Osborne Hammond Carney and the rest all lied to all of us too. Fortunately the difference is, Leavers didn’t believe their lies whereas Remainers did. Luckily for all of us, we still don’t believe and we’ll be out soon.

[blazes]

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

Yep, Cameron Clegg Osborne Hammond Carney and the rest all lied to all of us too. Fortunately the difference is, Leavers didn’t believe their lies whereas Remainers did. Luckily for all of us, we still don’t believe and we’ll be out soon.

 

Yes, good point, which also goes to show that the so-called "higher" education of the Remainers did not help them figure out who was lying to them!!!

 

In fact, the 'argument' that the Remainers had university degrees and were therefore too intelligent to be deceived by lying politicians  is itself a sign of profound ignorance. 

 

 Anyone who has been to university knows that there is no necessary connection between having a degree and having an intelligence!!! 

[vogie]

5 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Utter complete nonsense. You demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge of the actual representative democracy employed in the UK. Do you have the slightest idea why the referendum was advisory and can only be advisory, regardless of what incompetent former PM's and various assorted self interested politicians say?

Your usual cut and paste hogwash.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, blazes said:

 

Yes, good point, which also goes to show that the so-called "higher" education of the Remainers did not help them figure out who was lying to them!!!

 

In fact, the 'argument' that the Remainers had university degrees and were therefore too intelligent to be deceived by lying politicians  is itself a sign of profound ignorance. 

 

 Anyone who has been to university knows that there is no necessary connection between having a degree and having an intelligence!!! 

I’m not at all sure why you inserted education into this.

 

It wasn’t mentioned in the response that triggered you.

[blazes]

17 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m not at all sure why you inserted education into this.

 

It wasn’t mentioned in the response that triggered you.

 

17 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m not at all sure why you inserted education into this.

 

It wasn’t mentioned in the response that triggered you.

 

 

I was responding to Nigel's #36 posting, where the breakdown of the various voting demographics appears to point towards us Leavers being a bunch of thickheads......well, ok, less "educated."

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, blazes said:

 

 

 

I was responding to Nigel's #36 posting, where the breakdown of the various voting demographics appears to point towards us Leavers being a bunch of thickheads......well, ok, less "educated."

It doesn't matter, Blazes. Point at them all you want. Remoaners here have been going on and on about the lower educational levels of us fick levers for the last 3 years. Or is it 4?   

[Nigel Garvie]

6 hours ago, blazes said:

 

 

 

I was responding to Nigel's #36 posting, where the breakdown of the various voting demographics appears to point towards us Leavers being a bunch of thickheads......well, ok, less "educated."

Well I remember at the time avoiding saying "Thick or stupid" or anything like that, and simply referred to the education level, which YouGov themselves had highlighted. 

 

I don't have a degree myself, just a tech qualification, though I have managed to run a small business for over 30 years. I am starting to read a book called "The Intelligence Trap" subtitled "Why smart people make dumb mistakes". I don't believe that education automatically correlates with intelligence the evidence is all around us. As the book says:- "People with high IQs are also just as susceptible to the confirmation bias – our tendency to only consider the information that supports our pre-existing opinions, while ignoring facts that might contradict our views. That’s a serious issue when we start talking about things like politics."

 

Sadly Brexit has torn our country apart, and has become a religion for many on both sides, and no one is prepared to contemplate the non-existence of the sky fairy. However what I do take exception to is the idea that ALL our problems come from the EU, this is IMHO a quite spectacularly dumb thing to believe. It strikes me the the UK is quite capable of making problems for themselves without any outside help, we have been doing it for 100s of years already.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

It doesn't matter, Blazes. Point at them all you want. Remoaners here have been going on and on about the lower educational levels of us fick levers for the last 3 years. Or is it 4?   

The evidence in this thread suggests otherwise.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The evidence in this thread suggests otherwise.

Some remainers think that by being pretentious it makes them intelligent, it doesn't.

[billd766]

13 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

You are guessing that all the Labor voters who voted to leave the UK a) haven't changed their minds and b) would ditch the Labor party, and all it's other policies they support because of it.

 

Some guess. 

It's about the same level of guesswork that you normally see on this thread from posters of either side.

[evadgib]

7 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m not at all sure why you inserted education into this.

 

It wasn’t mentioned in the response that triggered you.

It's funny you should mention him...????

[bannork]

Ah, some humour in the Brexit thread. Thank God for that, I don't like to see British people tearing each other apart. Like many British folk I grew up on Monty Python and that taught me not to take life too seriously.

And now for something completely different...