Condo rules questions

[Dewey]

Good morning,

 

I have a basic question regarding rules in condominium. I own and live in a unit of a condo in Bangkok.

I already made renovation in it and the juristic office was already a pain in the *ss.

 

It went quite fine (I had to put a 36000THB deposit to the condo) but I plan to make new renovation (change windows).

This looks more complicated due to the fact that it will be visible from the outside.

However, I plan to do the same outside color so it should be almost invisible.

 

Anyway, I asked for the "rules and regulations" of the condo before telling them what I plan for my renovation.

Usual answer: no have, only one English page in the elevator stating "no pets allowed in the condo", "no airbnb" ...

And one page in Thai that my gf will translate to me soon. However, sounds a bit light.

 

So my question is: who make the rules for a condo and as a owner what are my rights ? I asked the juristic office which company manage the condo, they said metro property management but can't find any information online.

 

Thanks

[ezzra]

First of all, they should have a printed Rules and regulations booklet of your condo, if in thai only, ask to have it translated, it's your right, second, Ask to speak to juristic person manager of the building, he's the last word as what allowed and what not, ask him for clarifications regarding the buildings rules and regulations, should he fail to satisfy and address your concerns, furnish a letter to the building's juristic saying that in absence of any response and corporations of the their part you have no obligation and they have no power to stop you from doing what you need to do with in a reason of course, this is you're covered in case of later problems...

[Farangwithaplan]

I don't like your chances of changing an external aspect of a condo and with good reason. Internal you shouldn't have too many issues as long as you aren't cutting walls.

 

Can I ask why you want to change something like window types? You will have no chance of changing window opening dimensions.

[Dewey]

1 hour ago, Farangwithaplan said:

I don't like your chances of changing an external aspect of a condo and with good reason. Internal you shouldn't have too many issues as long as you aren't cutting walls.

 

Can I ask why you want to change something like window types? You will have no chance of changing window opening dimensions.

I will not change the size of the window, I change want to put real double-glazing windows. I live in Sukhumvit 50 in Bangkok and I can't get used to the sound, I plan to show them similar outside color so basically the difference would be small and not really visible from outside but I want to come prepared.

[smutcakes]

1 hour ago, ezzra said:

First of all, they should have a printed Rules and regulations booklet of your condo, if in thai only, ask to have it translated, it's your right, second, Ask to speak to juristic person manager of the building, he's the last word as what allowed and what not, ask him for clarifications regarding the buildings rules and regulations, should he fail to satisfy and address your concerns, furnish a letter to the building's juristic saying that in absence of any response and corporations of the their part you have no obligation and they have no power to stop you from doing what you need to do with in a reason of course, this is you're covered in case of later problems...

Changing the windows which would be visible from the outside, however close to the original it is, is contrary to the Condominium Act. Having crap management or no regulations makes no difference to this and would be zero defense. Having no response from the building management does not permit you to break the law of the land which the condo act is. Even if your condo has zero regulations you cannot break the Act which changing the appearance of the outside of the building is.

 

As an aside in my experience of this type of thing, when someone says there change is nearly invisible, they are generally massively understating how much change there will be!

[Dewey]

13 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

Changing the windows which would be visible from the outside, however close to the original it is, is contrary to the Condominium Act. Having crap management or no regulations makes no difference to this and would be zero defense. Having no response from the building management does not permit you to break the law of the land which the condo act is. Even if your condo has zero regulations you cannot break the Act which changing the appearance of the outside of the building is.

 

As an aside in my experience of this type of thing, when someone says there change is nearly invisible, they are generally massively understating how much change there will be!

I didn't know about the "condo act", I found an English copy online, I will study I will study it carefully but it sounds like I'm screwed !

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, smutcakes said:

Changing the windows which would be visible from the outside, however close to the original it is, is contrary to the Condominium Act.

I see no references at all in the Condo Act to matters like this. In my experience they are entirely controlled by the building by-laws.

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, ezzra said:

First of all, they should have a printed Rules and regulations booklet of your condo, if in thai only, ask to have it translated, it's your right, second, Ask to speak to juristic person manager of the building, he's the last word as what allowed and what not, ask him for clarifications regarding the buildings rules and regulations,

Yes, all buildings should have rules as these are decided at the first GM after a building is declared to be a condo. Most buildings seem to have a pretty standard list of copy/pasted rules though some of the better ones have a much more extensive list, that someone actually gave some thought to. Notably items like "no short-term rentals".

 

The final arbiter is actually the committee - who are the elected representatives of co-owners - rather than the JPM, though the JPM does have the power to act in his own stead if the matter threatens the safety or integrity of the building. I dont think that changing window colours would really fall into that category.

So the actual decision of what constitutes a visible change is probably down to the committee but even the committee has to abide by whatever the by-laws say about the matter, if anything. If necessary it can be taken to a GM for co-owner confirmation. A GM can also modify the by-laws permanently though this requires a very large quorum.

 

So I would say that it all depends on what is meant by "small and not really visible".

 

[Pilotman]

Can't stand condo living, usually in  a matchbox of a room, too many close neighbours and someone else dictating the rules to live by.  I live in my house, so my rules.  

[KittenKong]

7 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Can't stand condo living, usually in  a matchbox of a room, too many close neighbours and someone else dictating the rules to live by.  I live in my house, so my rules.  

That's fine and dandy until the guy in the house next door decides to adopt 20 dogs, or open a karaoke bar or a metal workshop. All those have happened.

 

Personally I like sensible rules that stop people from acting stupidly or inconsiderately, and I think that the rules are not applied enough in Thailand.

[Mavideol]

2 hours ago, Dewey said:

I didn't know about the "condo act", I found an English copy online, I will study I will study it carefully but it sounds like I'm screwed !

was going to say after your first post but at the 3rd one can't resist..... yeah, you're screwed big time and good luck trying to unscrew it, this is Thailand, management is or must be Thai, juristic is or must be Thai, no rules and regulations no by laws, this is the common thing here, been there done that, never got anything done besides aggravation from other owners (including foreign owners as well) is a fight that you will loose, attached is a copy of the condo act FYI

New Condominium Act 2008 Thai Law Texts (translations).pdf

[Pilotman]

1 minute ago, KittenKong said:

That's fine and dandy until the guy in the house next door decides to adopt 20 dogs, or open a karaoke bar or a metal workshop. All those have happened.

 

Personally I like sensible rules that stop people from acting stupidly or inconsiderately, and I think that the rules are not applied enough in Thailand.

As he is a fair way away from me, and a mate, I doubt that is going to happen any time soon, 

[Lacessit]

Perhaps the OP could solve his problem by having double glazing installed which does not change the external appearance.

 

[NCC1701A]

3 hours ago, Dewey said:

I didn't know about the "condo act",

Dude, you bought a condo on Sukhumvit and you don't know about the condo act? 

[smutcakes]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

I see no references at all in the Condo Act to matters like this. In my experience they are entirely controlled by the building by-laws.

Section 48 (3)

[KittenKong]

24 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

Section 48 (3)

I would say that is more to do with the quorum/majority needed to alter the internal by-laws, as I mentioned. It doesn't actually prohibit any actions.

Edited July 11, 2019 by KittenKong

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, Mavideol said:

management is or must be Thai, juristic is or must be Thai, no rules and regulations no by laws,

 

Management can be a farang-run company and farangs can also be employed as building managers and as JPM, though permits may be required. All buildings should have some sort of by-laws though they may not be very well written. The Condo Act also always applies though it is hard to enforce.

 

 

[smutcakes]

40 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

I would say that is more to do with the quorum/majority needed to alter the internal by-laws, as I mentioned. It doesn't actually prohibit any actions.

You can umm and ahh as flap as much as you want. The simple amswer is you are not allowed to do anything which affects the external visual aspect of the building. Ask anyone who knows anything about the condo act. The section looks pretty unequivocal to me.

 

The fact that it says you need a general meeting with not less than one half the total votes to approve a modification of the external appearemce of the building kind of suggests unilateral changes are forbidden.

[Delight]

To answer your Q i.e. who make the rules for a condo and as a owner what are my rights ?

The developer registers the Rules and Regulations with the land office at the point when the condo is first registered

In general these rules can only be modified with at least a  50%  approval vote at a general co -owners meeting 

However a section entitled 'Co -owner behaviour' can be changed at a general co -owner meeting with a  simple vote to approve.

You refer to the condo act

I attach a PDF of the 2008 act

Condominium_Act_2522_1979_updated_until_2008.pdf

[ThomasThBKK]

 

This guy did it, matching design is the key - should be doable. 

I mean, what happens if u accidently break all windows... it's not possible to replace it with the exact same windows from 20 years ago anyway.

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, smutcakes said:

You can umm and ahh as flap as much as you want. The simple amswer is you are not allowed to do anything which affects the external visual aspect of the building. Ask anyone who knows anything about the condo act. The section looks pretty unequivocal to me.

No, it just says that some such issues require particularly high voting numbers in order to approve them. It doesnt actually ban them at all and if a suitable number of co-owners are in favour then they can go ahead.

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, Delight said:

However a section entitled 'Co -owner behaviour' can be changed at a general co -owner meeting with a  simple vote to approve.

I see no such reference.

[meand]

I can't imagine if he spoke respectfully to them and brought in the contractor he would not be able to do the windows. How is changing a window any different than hanging newspapers in the window as far as changing appearances and devaluing? 

 

I am sure the contractor can pit windows in that will not be distractingly different (relative to newspapers and hanging underpants). 

[KittenKong]

6 hours ago, meand said:

I can't imagine if he spoke respectfully to them and brought in the contractor he would not be able to do the windows. How is changing a window any different than hanging newspapers in the window as far as changing appearances and devaluing? 

In some buildings you would not be allowed to hang newspapers either, and rightly so in my opinion. Hanging laundry on balconies is also not permitted in better buildings.

 

[smutcakes]

8 hours ago, KittenKong said:

No, it just says that some such issues require particularly high voting numbers in order to approve them. It doesnt actually ban them at all and if a suitable number of co-owners are in favour then they can go ahead.

So the OP was advised if he did not get given building regulations and no one would respond to him that he could go ahead and do it. This is patently wrong.

The Condo Act stipulates that to make changes which affect the exterior appearance of the building you need approval by not less than the one half of the total votes in a General Meeting.

In my view this quite clearly illustrates that should he unilaterally with no approval make changes to the exterior of the condominium however minor he believes they may be, he has breached Section 48 (3) of the Act has he has not sought approval by the requisite Co-ownership.

[KittenKong]

You misunderstand the rule. The rule does not prohibit people from altering the exterior view of the building, it just prohibits such changes being authorised by fewer than half the co-ownership.

 

[Dewey]

Good morning,

 

first thanks to all of you for your answers, so if I sum up those are my options:

- the "I'm screwed" option: give up and do nothing.

- the sneaky option: do it without telling anyone and install windows that would try to match as much as possible current outside design and color.

- the democratic option: submit the project to the condo committee and possibly lose the vote.

- the absurd option: install a second window inside (yes, someone actually did that in my condo according to the manager).

 

Tough choice..

[essox essox]

16 hours ago, Pilotman said:

Can't stand condo living, usually in  a matchbox of a room, too many close neighbours and someone else dictating the rules to live by.  I live in my house, so my rules.  

depends on size of room...I have friends that live in rooms 81 sq mtr to 101 sq mtrs and they are very happy "in their matchboxes" and THEY OWN their properties...YOU probably DO NOT....!!

[Pilotman]

Just now, essox essox said:

depends on size of room...I have friends that live in rooms 81 sq mtr to 101 sq mtrs and they are very happy "in their matchboxes" and THEY OWN their properties...YOU probably DO NOT....!!

I do, through our family company, and that is the size of my on suite bedroom. 

[YT3k72Em]

Try talking to the Condo Juristic Person office. They deal with people doing renovations all the time and the rules and procedures should be quite clear. Normally you would pay a deposit in case you do any damage to the shared facilities, and submit your renovation plans to them ahead of time to get approval. If you hire a competent contractor he should be familiar with this process and be able to take care of it for you.