Thai tourism in trouble: And competitor Vietnam is "scary" for Pattaya

[Veritas48]

No sympathy from me.Twenty six years married to my Thai wife and treated like a thirty day tourist....som nom naa Thailand,

[lkv]

Hehe. Check this out.

 

Survey results released Tuesday by the Vietnam National Administration of Tourism, reveal the average daily spending by the Chinese increased from $118.6 in 2014 to $130 last year. Compared to other regional countries, the daily spending was below that of Chinese visitors in Thailand ($180), Indonesia ($183) and Singapore ($446).  

 

https://www.ampe.vnexpress.net/news/travel-life/vietnam-cashes-in-on-spending-boom-by-chinese-tourists-3825698.html

 

Vietnam has to handle issues like new payment methods and zero dong tours to actually reap the benefits of the great inflow of Chinese tourists.

 

Various media reports point out that many of these tourists have arrived in Vietnam through so-called “zero dong tours”organized by Chinese tourist companies. During these tours, Chinese tourists stay at Chinese-run hotels, eat at Chinese restaurants, and shop at Chinese shopping outlets. They also use Chinese tour guides instead of local ones. Just like the use of Chinese e-wallet services, these problems reduce the trickle-down effect of Chinese tourists to the economy and local businesses.

 

https://ampe.vnexpress.net/news/perspectives/spike-in-chinese-tourists-presents-new-challenges-for-vietnam-3814121.html?vn_source=amp_detail&vn_medium=box_relatedtop&vn_campaign=boxtracking

 

Zero dong tours.

 

Rings a bell?

[john ianson]

18 hours ago, Metapod said:

Exchange rate is bad, costs are going up, visas are getting a lot harder to get, and more competitive alternatives are arising.

 

it isn't really surprising stuff. Thailand ain't that cheap anymore. Aussie dollar is like 21.7 thb these days. A lot of things are cheaper back in Aus now,

Especially golf ! Which is very expensive in Thailand 

[lkv]

Survey results released by John Lindquist at the Vietnam Travel and Tourism Summit Wednesday showed that foreign tourists spent $96 a day on average in Vietnam last year, three times lower than in Singapore ($325), and well below that of the Philippines ($115), Indonesia ($132), Malaysia ($134), and Thailand ($163).

Lindquist is a member of VisitBritain, the tourist board of the Great Britain, and a consultant of the U.S-backed Boston Consulting Group.

According to the Vietnam National Administration of Tourism (VNAT), on average, a foreign visitor spent $900 on a trip to Vietnam, compared to Singapore ($1,105), Indonesia ($1,109) and Thailand ($1,565).

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ampe.vnexpress.net/news/travel/places/vietnam-unable-to-cash-in-on-high-tourist-numbers-3851069.html

 

So Thailand has managed to milk more money out of tourists so far. Maybe people are waking up and the balances are shifting.

 

[Melbun]

13 minutes ago, john ianson said:

Especially golf ! Which is very expensive in Thailand 

So true, even the local chicky babes are cheaper in just about any country. With Thai working ladies asking outrageous prices - a local massage and handie is the way to go. Or go to a reputable masturbation school to learn DIY again -hahah.

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, Matzzon said:

That´s great news! Maybe the bigger part of all foreign criminalty in Thailand can move to Vietnam too. Then this nice country can go back to what it once was.

Apart from there always being foreign criminals in Thailand, I have never been directly affected by any, so I don't see why it's such a big deal to some.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, lkv said:

Survey results released by John Lindquist at the Vietnam Travel and Tourism Summit Wednesday showed that foreign tourists spent $96 a day on average in Vietnam last year, three times lower than in Singapore ($325), and well below that of the Philippines ($115), Indonesia ($132), Malaysia ($134), and Thailand ($163).

Lindquist is a member of VisitBritain, the tourist board of the Great Britain, and a consultant of the U.S-backed Boston Consulting Group.

According to the Vietnam National Administration of Tourism (VNAT), on average, a foreign visitor spent $900 on a trip to Vietnam, compared to Singapore ($1,105), Indonesia ($1,109) and Thailand ($1,565).

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ampe.vnexpress.net/news/travel/places/vietnam-unable-to-cash-in-on-high-tourist-numbers-3851069.html

 

So Thailand has managed to milk more money out of tourists so far. Maybe people are waking up and the balances are shifting.

 

How on earth do they come up with those figures? No way they could ever figure out what I spent in LOS, and I'm assuming most are like me. It's either a guess, or they are taking a small sector of tourists that spend on the record and extrapolating. Either way it's <deleted>.

[metisdead]

A post in which a quoted post had been altered has been removed. 

 

Some other nonsensical posts and replies have been removed. 

[thaibeachlovers]

51 minutes ago, Captain 776 said:

NOTHING has been done to improve Pattaya in the last 14 yrs thay I have lived in Thailand, instead it is allowed to just further decay every year.

Crime rises every year.

If you wear a gold chain in Pattaya, it has maybe a 1 hr life span before it gets ripped from your neck.

Add in the many other things of roadblocks, immigration, why would anyone come there?

Exactly, and it goes back way more than 14 years.

However, we all know what Pattaya was built on, and it isn't temples, waterparks, or restaurants.

By killing off the night scene and what is left becoming just too expensive, they removed the only reason to visit Pattaya by the people that spent the most ( and none of it on the record ).

Talk about killing the golden goose!

[pookondee]

1 hour ago, simon43 said:

Complacency - that seems to be the motto of TAT. Do nothing for the benefit of the country because the tourists will keep on coming.  In this case, I'm talking about Chinese tourists, because there are potentially hundreds of millions of them.  Mainland Chinese tourists don't seem to worry about polluted sea, don't worry about dirty beaches, don't use rip-off taxis.  They come for the selfies, get them and go back home.

 

Yinn, you mention that there were 21 buses of Chinese tourists at your friend's elephant camps.  Was that riding elephants?  Don't you understand that riding elephants and using sharp bull-hooks to control them is nowadays considered a cruel practice by 'civilised' tourists?  But those Chinese tourists won't care, and nor will the Thai people who run the elephant camp.

 

 

But lets be honest. The tourists only ever came because its cheap.

And If you take away that one factor, then what else is left? 

Friendly smiles, great service and a caring attitude? yeah right... LOL

 

For a large portion of the 2 week tourists, i can accept the bad exchange rates are not that big an issue.

They will still keep coming for sure, because it will still be cheap...for them.

 

But you cannot deny Thailand will loose something, (maybe) even a significant amount from all the long stayers who are now bailing out.

 

I just feel really sorry for the guys with Thai family, who it seems are constantly struggling against what looks like bad intentions from Thai Immigration.

 

I would like to think that their Thai families, who have been dragging on these guys kindness (and of course income)

for years,

MIGHT step up to the plate, and start making a noise to the government about the way their "providers" are being treated.

 

But NO, sadly, knowing there type (from experience) id say theres a snow flakes chance in hell of that ever happening!

 

even under threat of loosing their cash cow...

it will just be more mai pen rai...

Until, they are hungry with no money and REALLY realise what they lost!

 

And let me tell you, there is another group to be considered.

Guys on the sidelines, watching all this, who would of/ could of...possibly been future long stayers.

whom are now saying "no thanks"

 

That would have been the future cannon fodder buffaloes for Thai people to milk..

 

More future money for immigration, corrupt officials,

BS fines, paying double for other stuff, loosing houses they were conned into paying for..

on and on..

 

Not to mention possible MILLIONS of foriegn currency taken from other countries every day and injected into Thailand for whatever reason.

 

"You dont know what you've got 'till its gone"!

 

 

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, pookondee said:

But lets be honest. The tourists only ever came because its cheap.

Don't know how long you've been coming to LOS, but that's wrong. They came, like me, because Thailand was brilliant in the 90s, and before. Alternatives like Vietnam didn't exist as a destination for most.

It's gone downhill because of greed, sadly, but every country I've been in has gone downhill this century, for one reason or another.

Let's face it, the world for most of us was way better last century than now.

I say most of us referencing the people likely to be on TVF, not the world at large. 

[fullcave]

Long cues at the airport will fix it. Oh and force expats to buy your insurance scam. They will be leaving in the droves. Mission accomplished! 

[thaibeachlovers]

6 minutes ago, fullcave said:

Long cues at the airport will fix it. Oh and force expats to buy your insurance scam. They will be leaving in the droves. Mission accomplished! 

LOL. Been to Heathrow recently? They have queues to terrify, but it doesn't stop tourists going to the UK.

Insurance is a necessity, and if people won't buy it before travelling they should be required to buy it on arrival. Too many scammers not paying hospital bills for it to go on as usual.

[lkv]

13 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

None of the money handed over to prostitutes shows up on government books 

Well you can input any data you wish in the mathematical model, including the cost of a prostitute, which we know, and how many of Thailand's tourists were sex tourists, which, if I am not mistaken, was estimated at about 30% a few years ago.

 

Then you average the number of encounters a tourist will have during his holiday, based on various factors like age ????

 

Maybe that's why it indicates a high cost for Thailand ????????

[Odisan]

Nothing quite like a bit of healthy competition to shake it all up. 

 

????

[Matzzon]

45 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Apart from there always being foreign criminals in Thailand, I have never been directly affected by any, so I don't see why it's such a big deal to some.

So, considering that would be an effect to how the Thais look at the foreign population would be all wrong.

[jacko45k]

16 hours ago, remorhaz said:

You aren't going to replace this with Indians trying to put pencils into your hands then demanding money

I have certainly had them try to sell me a suit in Thailand, but never try to put a pencil in my hand. 

[thaibeachlovers]

15 minutes ago, lkv said:

Well you can input any data you wish in the mathematical model, including the cost of a prostitute, which we know, and how many of Thailand's tourists were sex tourists, which, if I am not mistaken, was estimated at about 30% a few years ago.

 

Then you average the number of encounters a tourist will have during his holiday, based on various factors like age ????

 

Maybe that's why it indicates a high cost for Thailand ????????

Way too many variables to compute how much a monger will pay for that side of things on a visit. It can only be a guess, and wrong at that.

Besides, who can say which tourist is a monger and which is in Pattaya only for the golf?

I can't give specifics as against forum rules.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

So, considering that would be an effect to how the Thais look at the foreign population would be all wrong.

Number of foreign criminals in LOS as compared to non criminal visitors is so insignificant.

If Thais think farangs are a large part of the criminal element, they are mistaken.

[lkv]

30 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Like I said, it's a guess based on a mathematical model- garbage in= garbage out

I actually disagree with you on that. Models are being used by all countries worldwide, you will find them on every tourism website such as Australia, UK, US and so on.

 

A good model can predict quite accurately the reality, with a margin of error, and they are used by countries to make decisions in regards to visa policies for example.

 

Vietnam has extended its visa waiver policies for the developed countries until 2021. They came to the conclusion that Westerners spend the most per trip. More than Chinese.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, lkv said:

I actually disagree with you on that. Models are being used by all countries worldwide, you will find them on every tourism website such as Australia, UK, US and so on.

 

A good model can predict quite accurately the reality, with a margin of error, and it's used by countries to make decisions in regards to visa policies for instance.

 

I'm just not sure of the numbers themselves being fake or not, coming from these corrupt organisations in third world countries.

I'm not disputing that in other countries mathematical models may work, but LOS is unique as it involves so many arriving to take part in activities that will not be reported.

Even leaving that side of things apart, take a young person arriving on Phangan for the full moon party.

They may stay in a place that does not report visitors, there will be no record of how much they spend on food, drink, trinkets, drugs etc. Even the "fees" they may pay to enter the scene will be unrecorded, for obvious reasons.

All the model can predict is what they may pay for accommodation and expenses. No way it can be accurate, and that is probably hundreds of thousands of visitors a year on just one beach.

[lkv]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

All the model can predict is what they may pay for accommodation and expenses. No way it can be accurate

That's your opinion. My opinion is that, if you know the average price of the hotel, the average price of a meal, and you correlate it with real surveys, you can quite accurately extrapolate.

 

Vietnam is now saying for instance, that their spending of only 90 something dollars per tourist per day, is because of lack of infrastructure and development. Basically, they are saying that if they had Thailand's shopping malls, spending per tourist would increase. And it would.

[Dumbastheycome]

The truth of it is that from whatever source tourists originate the actual numbers are decreasing in proportion to the general downturn in the global economy. Whether it be a lack of affordability or practical caution people are aware of or victim to it. For Europe Spain is the safer option again. The Baht is relatively too strong against most desirable tourist currencies. Global events are also a negative factor with Trump playing demigod and now gloating about his new "Apprentice " in the UK. Now Russia and China are jointly putting their hands up in a sign of defiance.  Things will get worse before they get better IMHO! 

 

[BritManToo]

57 minutes ago, lkv said:

Well you can input any data you wish in the mathematical model, including the cost of a prostitute, which we know, and how many of Thailand's tourists were sex tourists, which, if I am not mistaken, was estimated at about 30% a few years ago.

So the stats are clearly wrong right from the start, 90% of foreign men visiting Thailand end up having sex with locals.

What label you stick on them is irrelevant.

[BritManToo]

28 minutes ago, lkv said:

Vietnam is now saying for instance, that their spending of only 90 something dollars per tourist per day, is because of lack of infrastructure and development. Basically, they are saying that if they had Thailand's shopping malls, spending per tourist would increase. And it would.

I spend around $30/day on holiday in Vietnam, I meet many backpackers spending less than $20/day.

I'm not sure why you think foreign tourists would visit shopping malls.

Although I did stand in a shopping mall while waiting for a bus in Da Nang last month.

[Psychic]

There have been a couple of posters here continually saying that just because western countries tourism have been hurt by the strength if the baht not to worry because Chinese/Indian tourism would come to the rescue.

So I just checked.

Since 2015 both those currencies have sunk by 20% or so too.

Also Japan and Korea.

It might take a while to bite but a strong currency is going to hit all those tourist populations.

People will start to look elsewhere.

As I mentioned this gets to be cumulative.

Chinese tourism started to accelerate with a weak baht.

It continued as the baht strengthened.

I think the opposite is starting to occur. 

Unfortunately for Thailand I don't think they can lower the baht voluntarily enough to make a difference.

But the self regulating market will take care of that for them over time as exports and tourism slow it will lower the baht.

By that time, however, other countries will have built their tourism base, added infrastructure and increased marketing.

It could be a decade or more before a weaker baht would incentivize a new wave of tourism.

Well that's my two cents worth and it is probably overvalued.

????

[brewsterbudgen]

 
 
Good points,
 
And to be fair, Vietnam previously did not particularly welcome westerners and nor were they geared for large tourism, but that has all changed.
 
My son came to Thailand this year with his western girlfriend, he has been many times over the years. He is now 28 years old and has actually been coming for 18 years, as a youngster and now an adult. He is upwardly mobile, great job (in the Nuclear industry), as does she, and plenty of disposable income. These are supposedly the tourists that Prayut and his ilk were aiming for.
 
He knows the country. He came to Isaarn and then went off to Chiang Mai and Krabi, as well as a couple of Southern islands. When I asked him his thoughts, he told me Chiang Mai was ' not his cup of tea ' as he was more beach person. He used to go to Pattaya but after his last trip, three years ago, he decided it was no longer for him.
 
He liked Krabi and the islands but thought once was enough and a case of ' Been there, seen it, done it ' He says that there are just ' more interesting places to go that offer more of what they are looking for '
 
He did two years Australia so he knows his beaches.
 
He found Chiang Mai dirty, and uninviting. Isaarn he enjoyed because I was here and it was a natural upcountry experience.
 
He has told me his next trips will be Vietnam and Myanmar and possibly Malaysia. He has done all he wants to do in Cambodia. No further plans to come here.
 
 

Quite right too. Why would any adventurous young traveller limit himself to one country? But he'll replaced by another new, adventurous backpacker.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Mark Evans]

Marcusarelus what do you know about Vietnam?

 

Dont make comments like this unless you understand the facts

 

"How long? Thailand has problems but Vietnam's government!  Forget about it"

 

VN has a communist government but they are much more competent and competitive in managing the economy and attracting FDI.

Thailand had it's time in the sun decades ago when FDI poured in, from Japan in particular, to make or assemble Cars and Electronics etc.

That's because other SE nations were either in turmoil or too expensive. Plus the Thai FDI incentives were very attractive. Not anymore. 

 

Billions of USD are flooding into Vietnam because of several essential factors. 

 

1 - The Trade War 

2 - Investor friendly policies such as business registration process, cheap land and long leases.  Attractive tax breaks or tax holidays. 

3 - Lower wages than China or Thailand e.g. a factory worker paid top money is on average earning up to 10,000 baht per month. 

4 - Worker attitude. They are hard working, learn fast and industrious. Hungry to get ahead.

5 - I have friends who have businesses in TL and their common complaint is ....  the Thais are so lazy. I've witnessed this on my trips to TL.

Too many holidays and breaks plus the lackadaisical attitude of Thais who basically only live for today. 

6 Education. There is a plethora of schools in VN with various education standards and most parents aspire to send their children to the best their money can afford. In addition they will pay for their kids to have after school tuition, especially English language courses. I'm not talking about the rich but across Vietnamese society. 

 

Thailand is now considered a mature economy (for the region)  combined with a ruthless ruling class who are determined to protect their interests at any cost. Even to the eventual detriment of their own economy. This makes it extremely difficult for most enterprising people, especially the young to start a new business. Whereas in Vietnam opportunities abound and are not limited to the rich residents obsessed with control as seen in BKK. 

 

There are more but the above should be sufficient to demonstrate why I believe that Vietnam's GDP will surpass Thailand within the next decade. Yes they have growing pains such as poor infrastructure, pollution, traffic, but their top medical facilities are cheaper and on par with Thailand.

There is an oversupply of accommodation in the main cities and young foreigners from Europe, UK etc are moving to Vietnam looking for opportunities and refreshing change. The Visa friendly policies are encouraging them. 

 

Thailand's government,  which you seem to partially endorse, may never admit or wake up to the fierce competition on their doorstep. I love Thailand and have visited many times over the past 20 years but the vast majority of the people are being screwed over by the BKK elite. It's a shame but the inevitable decline has already begun. 

 

[ChipButty]

20 hours ago, Justgrazing said:

Just hang in there Pattaya the Indians are coming .. 

Too many chiefs and not enough Indians

[Yinn]

8 hours ago, sambum said:

Let me guess the origin of the figures - TAT?

Wrong.

Bloomberg.