Scotland's leader tells Johnson: we want an independence referendum

[aright]

13 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

One step at a time - Brexit will see us all out of the EU; independence will see us free of the UK. At that point, Scots can vote for the direction their country should take. 

 

13 hours ago, aright said:

And that's as it should be.

Once out of the UK can you tell us what additional benefits you will get by joining the EU that you wouldn't have as an independent nation?

RR……….Is that question too difficult to answer?

[RuamRudy]

44 minutes ago, aright said:

 

RR……….Is that question too difficult to answer?

After 4 years of daily Brexit wrangling it would appear that we are back to the start.

There are multiple posts on multiple TV threads spelling out the benefits of the EU. I not inclined to reprise them. Safe to say, however, the message of the 'benefits' of Brexit has fallen flat on its face. 

[aright]

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

After 4 years of daily Brexit wrangling it would appear that we are back to the start.

There are multiple posts on multiple TV threads spelling out the benefits of the EU. I not inclined to reprise them. Safe to say, however, the message of the 'benefits' of Brexit has fallen flat on its face. 

This sounds like a cop out to me. We are discussing Scottish independence not Brexit.

Of course the EU has benefits.  

I'm just asking you to identify what additional benefits you will get by joining the EU that you wouldn't get as an independent nation? 

If you cannot identify additional benefits what's the point in joining?

 

[Number 6]

The only loss I see is the whiskey. Let it go. Send all the Scottish in England packing. English = zero unemployment. #winning.

 

Latin Europe is just itching to get out and get their currencies back. Scotland wants to stay on...protect jobs on the continent and haggis exports.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Number 6

[RuamRudy]

This sounds like a cop out to me. We are discussing Scottish independence not Brexit.
Of course the EU has benefits.  
I'm just asking you to identify what additional benefits you will get by joining the EU that you wouldn't get as an independent nation? 
If you cannot identify additional benefits what's the point in joining?
 

We voted 62% in favour of remain in 2015. Since then, polls shown support for remain has increased to 73%. We are clearly satisfied with our current arrangements and we clearly want none of what Farage and his corrupt backers have to offer.

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[RuamRudy]

The only loss I see is the whiskey. Let it go. Send all the Scottish in England packing. English = zero unemployment. #winning.
 
Latin Europe is just itching to get out and get their currencies back. Scotland wants to stay on...protect jobs on the continent and haggis exports.

Over an hour since you posted and no response from anyone. I had expected to see multiple TV posters remonstrate you most vociferously for your comments but not a whiff so far.

Were I so wrong about England and the English, and to actually post about it in such an offensive manner, I am sure I would be brought to task pretty quickly, and rightly so.

Oh, and Scotland doesn't make whiskey.

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[Number 6]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Over an hour since you posted and no response from anyone. I had expected to see multiple TV posters remonstrate you most vociferously for your comments but not a whiff so far.

Were I so wrong about England and the English, and to actually post about it in such an offensive manner, I am sure I would be brought to task pretty quickly, and rightly so.

Oh, and Scotland doesn't make whiskey.

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All so tribal.

 

Whisky... is the English correct now?

[lungbing]

5 hours ago, aright said:

This sounds like a cop out to me. We are discussing Scottish independence not Brexit.

Of course the EU has benefits.  

I'm just asking you to identify what additional benefits you will get by joining the EU that you wouldn't get as an independent nation? 

If you cannot identify additional benefits what's the point in joining?

 

The whole point and nothing but the point is that Sturgeon gets to be called Madame President and stuff the people.

[sirineou]

11 minutes ago, lungbing said:

The whole point and nothing but the point is that Sturgeon gets to be called Madame President and stuff the people.

isn't that the point with brexit also?

Why is it ok for one set of people to want to get rid of a U but not for another set of people?

 

[zorrow424]

3 hours ago, Number 6 said:

The only loss I see is the whiskey. Let it go. Send all the Scottish in England packing. English = zero unemployment. #winning.

 

Latin Europe is just itching to get out and get their currencies back. Scotland wants to stay on...protect jobs on the continent and haggis exports.

Not just Scotland in this vote,but England too. Yes Scotland would be out the first hint of ballot boxes being displayed

[RuamRudy]

The whole point and nothing but the point is that Sturgeon gets to be called Madame President and stuff the people.

Even if your fanciful nonsense was true, it wouldn't quite be 'stuff the people' as the people would have chosen that path in a democratic manner.

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[RuamRudy]

Not just Scotland in this vote,but England too. Yes Scotland would be out the first hint of ballot boxes being displayed

You really need to brush up on your knowledge of the union. Here's a hint - despite what you seem to think, the UK consists of 3 countries and 6 counties. If you are seeking to extend the franchise, why would you disregard Wales or Northern Ireland?

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[zorrow424]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You really need to brush up on your knowledge of the union. Here's a hint - despite what you seem to think, the UK consists of 3 countries and 6 counties. If you are seeking to extend the franchise, why would you disregard Wales or Northern Ireland?

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here is another hint

   England for beauty,

   Ireland for wit

   Wales for deceit

  ...and Scotland for ....

[Slip]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Over an hour since you posted and no response from anyone. I had expected to see multiple TV posters remonstrate you most vociferously for your comments but not a whiff so far.

Were I so wrong about England and the English, and to actually post about it in such an offensive manner, I am sure I would be brought to task pretty quickly, and rightly so.

Oh, and Scotland doesn't make whiskey.

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Some (though not all) of us are long enough in the tooth to spot and ignore an obvious troll mate.

 

(And in the post just above this, another one who sensible people would do well simply to ignore.)

Edited August 4, 2019 by Slip

[3NUMBAS]

the sweatys are never happy ..rab nesbit to lead the country is best for them sweatys

[bristolboy]

7 hours ago, Number 6 said:

The only loss I see is the whiskey. Let it go. Send all the Scottish in England packing. English = zero unemployment. #winning.

 

Latin Europe is just itching to get out and get their currencies back. Scotland wants to stay on...protect jobs on the continent and haggis exports.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/03/19/europeans-credit-eu-with-promoting-peace-and-prosperity-but-say-brussels-is-out-of-touch-with-its-citizens/

Eurobarometer: Support for the euro steady at all-time high levels

A majority of 74% of respondents across the euro area said that they thought the euro was good for the EU. This is the same as the record high score set last year and confirms that popular support for the euro is at its highest since surveys began in 2002. By contrast, 15 % of respondents said that the euro was bad for their country, a decrease of one percentage point.

[aright]

6 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

We voted 62% in favour of remain in 2015. Since then, polls shown support for remain has increased to 73%. We are clearly satisfied with our current arrangements and we clearly want none of what Farage and his corrupt backers have to offer.

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Pure obfuscation

I am not disputing your figures and don’t know where Farage fits into our discussion on Scottish independence and I don’t understand your reluctance to answer two simple questions.

What additional benefits do you expect to get by joining the EU that you wouldn’t get as an independent nation?

If you can’t identify additional benefits what’s the point in joining?

This is a debating forum and I regard the questions as reasonable and  questions which I presume the public north of the border have had a think about; but if you feel you don't have an answer to the questions there is nothing to debate is there? I won't ask this or other questions again and you can reserve the post for people who agree with you.  

 

[johnnybangkok]

On 8/3/2019 at 3:12 PM, aright said:

 

 

Firstly the Express link I gave was in part a quotation from Dominic Raab not an Express opinion

Tory justice minister Dominic Raab said:

"The EU has a long-track record of shifting the goal-posts. Britain thinks it is signed up for one thing, only to find something very different imposed on us. In 40 years, we've lost three-quarters of cases at the Luxembourg Court, when we've tried to resist these incursions. They affect everything from the price of beer to the cost of home insulation, and undermine basic principle of our democracy - that the British people can hold to account those who write the laws of the land."

 

As for finding neutral opinions on anything political……..good luck with that.  

 

I can’t see your so called simple answer to my question beyond a Tory plug and a desperate attempt to obfuscate. You have made no attempt to explain why living under EU/ECJ rules is preferable to living under Westminster rules from your perspective.. To put it another way what specific benefits do you see from living under EU/ECJ rules that you wouldn’t get from Westminster rules ? This question still needs to be answered.

 

As for your question also name 5 EU laws in the last 15 years that you think are particularly egregious. 

The EU have passed no laws or done anything of any significance in the last 15 years that have affected me personally. However you should be aware that I voted in the referendum based on what was best for my country’s future not the past, the now or next year but long term. For the future I have no desire to be part of a superstate which increasingly forces it's federal agenda on all member states. I have no desire to be a minority part of an outside community which wants flags, anthems and an army...…...I have those at home in an independent, sovereign, country run by an elected government.

 

I have answered your question directly; I hope you will answer mine in the same way. 

 

'The EU have passed no laws or done anything of any significance in the last 15 years that have affected me personally'.

 

So by your own admission there has been nothing that has directly affected you, yet you 'feel' that the EU is following a 'federal agenda' and that was good enough for you to vote against your own interests. There is literally no facts or evidence to back up your assertion, yet the 'Little Britain' mentality that so many Brexit fans demonstrate has led us to a point where expert advice and individuals with more insight than all of us are routinely ignored in favour of jingoistic nonsense.

 

Why living under EU/ECJ rules is preferable to living under Westminster rules for the average working man/woman

1. The EU introduced the working Time Directive which specifically limited the time a worker can be forced to work to no more than 48 hours per week. The UK successfully lobbied for an 'opt out clause' for some workers, which I for one used when I worked in London.

2.  EU rules also secure British workers’ legal right to paid annual leave. The introduction of these laws gave six million Britons better rights to paid leave, including two million workers who had previously not been entitled to any paid leave at all.

3. Equal pay between men and women - The British government had refused to incorporate into law the idea that pay should be based on value, meaning a woman doing a more valuable or senior job could legally be paid only the same as a more junior male colleague.  The UK government amended this only after enforcement action by the EU Commission. 

4. EU law guarantees women a minimum of 14 weeks maternity leave. The European Court of Justice has made clear any discrimination towards a woman because of her pregnancy or maternity leave is sexism and should be treated at such. The ECJ also ruled that employers must give women on maternity leave the same contractual rights as they do to other employees, for example by continuing to pay in to pension schemes. 

5. EU law says parents must be allowed to take 18 weeks of unpaid leave from work to look after a child.  It also says workers must be allowed additional time off for other family reasons, such as an ill child. 

6. UK laws banning discrimination on the grounds of age, religion or sexual orientation come directly from the EU’s Equal Treatment Directive.

7. The EU’s Health and Safety Framework Directive forces employers to assess and act to reduce workplace risks. Other rules cover issues such as disabilities, noise and specific regulations for staff working with chemicals, asbestos or other potential hazards. The TUC says 41 of the 65 new health and safety regulations introduced in the UK between 1997 and 2009 came from EU laws. 

8. Freedom of movement - the ability to travel between any member states without any need for visa's etc.

9. Being employed in the EU is made much, much easier by being a member of the EU.  Also, any EU citizen living in another EU country enjoys equal treatment with nationals of the host country in terms of welfare protection.

10. Cheap phone calls - During the 1990s, the EU broke the monopolies held by public telecoms operators. The result was a doubling of the number of fixed-line operators between 1998 and 2003, rapid introduction of new technology, and lower prices. According to the European Commission, the price of international telephone calls in the EU has fallen by 80% since 1984. The EU has now begun taking action to reduce the cost of roaming on mobile phones.

11. Consumers can send back a product bought anywhere in the EU if it breaks down within two years of purchase. People shopping on the internet, by telephone or mail order, can also change their mind within seven days, and cancel the contract without giving a reason. EU law prohibits misleading advertising and requires that all products put on the market are safe. Shoppers who buy goods for their own use in one EU country can take them to another EU country without paying excise duty, as long as they accompany them.

12. The EU is widely credited with forcing the pace on improvements to the quality of air, rivers and beaches. Member states might have done the job independently in their own time, but peer pressure upped the tempo when European ministers got together to pass laws. Measures such as the Urban Waste Water Treatment Directive have led to dramatic improvements in the rivers over the last 30 years, making possible, for example, the return of otters to the British countryside. Other legislation has greatly reduced the problem of acid rain; the UK, once the "dirty man of Europe" cut sulphur emissions by 73% between 1990 and 2002. And if 30 years ago most British beaches failed the test of the EU Bathing Water Directive, now 98% of them get the thumbs-up.

13. The free movement of goods within the EU through 'friction-less' borders gives every EU member a massive advantage over any one else trying to import into the EU.

 

SOURCES :- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6455879.stm

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest-news-10-ways-eu-protects-british-workers-rights-in-danger-european-union-a7531366.html

 

I could go on but my point is these are NOT the action of some omnipotent Big Brother forcing us all in to some federal super state that you so desperately want to be true. The EU has done more for the common working man than ANY Westminster government would ever even dream of and if you think for one moment that Boris and his cronies are going to have the interest of the working man at the centre of their policies rather than their business chums, well I'm sorry but I don't do deluded.   

 

[aright]

9 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

 The EU have passed no laws or done anything of any significance in the last 15 years that have affected me personally'.………………………………………………………………...

 

SOURCES :- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6455879.stm

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest-news-10-ways-eu-protects-british-workers-rights-in-danger-european-union-a7531366.html

 

I could go on but my point is these are NOT the action of some omnipotent Big Brother forcing us all in to some federal super state that you so desperately want to be true. The EU has done more for the common working man than ANY Westminster government would ever even dream of and if you think for one moment that Boris and his cronies are going to have the interest of the working man at the centre of their policies rather than their business chums, well I'm sorry but I don't do deluded.   

 

That's a lot of copy and paste and I think our conversation is off topic for this forum however.....

What evidence do you have that many of your so called "good things" would not have happened in the UK outside the EU? What evidence do you have that when we leave the EU all the rules established whilst in the EU will be cancelled? What evidence do you have that once independent we won't parallel good EU and global legislation?

When I voted in the referendum I admit I was not thinking about the working man or cheap phone calls, or product guarantees or maternity leave etc. only the future of my country...…...I make no apology for that.

You obviously cannot see the writing on the wall in the EU when it comes to the federalist movement. The best expression is slowly, slowly catchee monkey If the EU is loved so much over your so called "good things" why do you think there has been such an increase in the last 3 years of extreme political parties? It's not a sign of happiness is it?

At the next General Election you will have the opportunity to "do deluded" and vote for the common working man through Jeremy Corbyn an opportunity denied to you when it came to the appointment of Juncker and von der Leyen.  

[johnnybangkok]

4 minutes ago, aright said:

That's a lot of copy and paste and I think our conversation is off topic for this forum however.....

What evidence do you have that many of your so called "good things" would not have happened in the UK outside the EU? What evidence do you have that when we leave the EU all the rules established whilst in the EU will be cancelled? What evidence do you have that once independent we won't parallel good EU and global legislation?

When I voted in the referendum I admit I was not thinking about the working man or cheap phone calls, or product guarantees or maternity leave etc. only the future of my country...…...I make no apology for that.

You obviously cannot see the writing on the wall in the EU when it comes to the federalist movement. The best expression is slowly, slowly catchee monkey If the EU is loved so much over your so called "good things" why do you think there has been such an increase in the last 3 years of extreme political parties? It's not a sign of happiness is it?

At the next General Election you will have the opportunity to "do deluded" and vote for the common working man through Jeremy Corbyn an opportunity denied to you when it came to the appointment of Juncker and von der Leyen.  

Yet more anecdotal 'feelings' backed up with absolutely no facts.

'What evidence do you have that many of your so called "good things" would not have happened in the UK outside the EU'? - as already clearly stated, many of the laws I quoted were forced upon the UK (working time directive, equal pay, equal rights for women Etc), so it logically follows that they WOULD NOT have happened if it weren't for the EU.

'What evidence do you have that when we leave the EU all the rules established whilst in the EU will be cancelled' - I never said they would and don't think they will. But the gentle erosion of them is very, very possible.

'What evidence do you have that once independent we won't parallel good EU and global legislation?' - we didn't in the past and in many cases had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the EU laws we have today. 

 

Without a crystal ball no one can tell what will happen in the future but if the past is an indicator of the future then why would the EU all of a sudden decide to go against 25 years of working for YOU and start acting in the complete reverse?

You readily admit you were not thinking of the working man when you voted. This means you were voting against your own interests in the mistaken belief that the EU is attempting to be some sort of federalist monster, hell bent on brainwashing you into EU obedience. This was the propaganda perpetuated by Farange, BoJo and the rest of the Brexit Brigade which was never based on fact but on pure emotion. And you fell for it.

Here's a point. Let's see who else are also fans of Brexit. So you have the Nationalist elite headed up by BoJo; you have the far right racist elements headed up by Farage and Tommy Robinson and just your common or garden far righters, Steve Bannon and of course The Idiot in Chief, Donald Trump. Guess who else supports Brexit and who has done more to sway it than anyone else? Russia. That's right Russia (with obviously your interests at heart) have done more to sway public opinion in the UK through false flag stories, electoral interference and social media influencing than anyone else and if that doesn't tell you something then I certainly won't be able to convince you. Russia wants the EU to destabilise and sees Brexit as the way to do it. In 2016, the then British Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond suggested in a speech at the Chatham House think tank, "In fact, the only country who would like us to leave the EU is Russia. That should tell us all we need to know."  

Getting back to the Scottish independence debate.

Scotland sees and has appreciated EU influence over the years for the good it has done. They don't see this federal monster that you are trying desperately to substantiate because it simply has not happened and refuses to acquiesce to what it is scaremongering based on hearsay and conjecture. Scotland deserves a chance for self determination and since things have changed so dramatically from the last Independence vote, another vote is not only sorely needed but the right thing to do.

  

[RuamRudy]

12 hours ago, aright said:

Pure obfuscation

I am not disputing your figures and don’t know where Farage fits into our discussion on Scottish independence and I don’t understand your reluctance to answer two simple questions.

What additional benefits do you expect to get by joining the EU that you wouldn’t get as an independent nation?

If you can’t identify additional benefits what’s the point in joining?

This is a debating forum and I regard the questions as reasonable and  questions which I presume the public north of the border have had a think about; but if you feel you don't have an answer to the questions there is nothing to debate is there? I won't ask this or other questions again and you can reserve the post for people who agree with you.  

 

If I was to only discuss with those with whom I agree, then I would have very few interactions on this forum, especially when it comes to the subject of Scottish Independence. 

 

Farage is fully complicit in the current constitutional situation - a blind man's dog can see that. You may not want to acknowledge that the UK is gasping its dying breaths because of him, but that is fact. 

 

With regards to your question, I have answered it fully. That is not expansive enough to satisfy you is the least of my concerns - but I shall reiterate, I am satisfied with the EU membership as it stands. I have absolutely no need to produce a shopping list of additional benefits when those we currently enjoy are satisfactory.

[RuamRudy]

40 minutes ago, aright said:

That's a lot of copy and paste and I think our conversation is off topic for this forum however.....

What evidence do you have that many of your so called "good things" would not have happened in the UK outside the EU? What evidence do you have that when we leave the EU all the rules established whilst in the EU will be cancelled? What evidence do you have that once independent we won't parallel good EU and global legislation?

Good god - the best argument you have can be boiled down to 'if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, does it make a noise?' 

[aright]

43 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Good god - the best argument you have can be boiled down to 'if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, does it make a noise?' 

I realise these questions are difficult for cult followers.... I have accepted my reality of Brexit unfortunately you are one of those people more in love with the thought of independence than the reality.  

Edited August 5, 2019 by aright

[aright]

38 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If I was to only discuss with those with whom I agree, then I would have very few interactions on this forum, especially when it comes to the subject of Scottish Independence. 

 

Farage is fully complicit in the current constitutional situation - a blind man's dog can see that. You may not want to acknowledge that the UK is gasping its dying breaths because of him, but that is fact. 

 

With regards to your question, I have answered it fully. That is not expansive enough to satisfy you is the least of my concerns - but I shall reiterate, I am satisfied with the EU membership as it stands. I have absolutely no need to produce a shopping list of additional benefits when those we currently enjoy are satisfactory.

Just a reminder....

In post 169 you asked me a question

In post 171, I gave you my answer and asked a question...…..I didn't even get the courtesy of a response; another difficult question obviously. 

In post 204 you didn't answer the question

in post 206 I responded to your post and asked the question again...…...no answer to question just continued obfuscation.

Can you point me to the post where you answered the question in full? There I go again asking inconvenient questions.

It seems to me you enjoy being the prodder not the prodee

 

 

 

[johnnybangkok]

20 minutes ago, aright said:

I realise these questions are difficult for cult followers

I have answered each and every one of your question in full with facts and supported sources. 

Am I a cult follower too because we can support our position with facts rather than you with your “feelings”? 

Name calling is the last bastion of the ill informed so if we are to continue any of this, please stop. 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by johnnybangkok

[aright]

5 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

I have answered each and every one of your question in full with facts and supported sources. 

Am I a cult follower too because we can support our position with facts rather than you with your “feelings”? 

Name calling is the last bastion of the ill informed so if we are to continue any of this, please stop. 

 

Sad. A cult is just a group with a common interest or goal...….it's no more name calling than calling the Labour party socialists. It's not a dirty word.

You are right however there seems to be no further value in our conversation. bye

[johnnybangkok]

1 minute ago, aright said:

Sad. A cult is just a group with a common interest or goal...….it's no more name calling than calling the Labour party socialists. It's not a dirty word.

You are right however there seems to be no further value in our conversation. bye

I accept your defeat. 

[johnnybangkok]

Just now, johnnybangkok said:

I accept your defeat. 

Sorry. I meant surrender 

[aright]

10 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

I accept your defeat. 

 

10 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

Sorry. I meant surrender 

What defeat, what surrender, we are leaving the EU despite your brilliant rhetoric...…..that's victory.????

Edited August 5, 2019 by aright

[johnnybangkok]

6 hours ago, aright said:

 

What defeat, what surrender, we are leaving the EU despite your brilliant rhetoric...…..that's victory.????

Debating with the Brexit Brigade is like playing chess with a pigeon. 

No matter how good you are and how much you beat them, they’re still going to knock over the board, sh*t all over the pieces and still claim they won.