Scotland's leader tells Johnson: we want an independence referendum

[geoffbezoz]

Just now, DougSunee said:

The Scottish Government is in the early days of setting up an investment bank which if I remember correctly will be the basis for a central bank come independence. 

hope they don't appoint a Canadian or other foreigner to run its own bank !!

[Benmart]

15 hours ago, elliss said:

 

        God bless America ..

There's always one that brings in American to something completely unrelated. Sober up.

[Mansell]

4 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

What a completely inane post. You are the reason Scotland is even contemplating independence.

Let's break down your statement:-

 

'Let the rest of the UK vote on Scottish independence too..'  - Why? It would have nothing to do with them.

'we will not let you have the pound' - it's not yours (and I assume you're English). It belongs to the whole of the UK which if I recall, Scotland is still very much a part of.

'No tax allowances in the UK' - what's that supposed to mean? If Scotland leaves it will not be part of the UK (as the UK won't exist any more) and will set their own taxes.

'A hard border' - Hadrian built the wall. Scotland's been wanting to build it higher for years to keep you bampots out.

'Get your own army Navy and Airforce' - again, they are not yours. they belong to the whole of the UK. This is the type of English arrogance the Scots have to put up with on a daily basis.

'No right to own property or work in the UK' - I assume again you mean England (no Uk remember) and why wouldn't they? Russians, Chinese, Europeans, Americans and the rest of world can own property in England so why shouldn't the Scots? And as for working, the same rules would apply for any foreign national.

The rest are just nonsense so let's skip to the juicy part:-

'No money from Westminster' - Fine. Just leave the oil, natural resources and whisky. They'll be fine.

 

Scotland has a legitimate gripe concerning self-governance as they have no say whatsoever in what political party gets into Westminster and when voting very firmly to remain, it again makes no difference.  If the same circumstances were happening to English we'd never hear the end of it.

As the leader of the SNP, Sturgeon only has Scotland's interests at heart and although I'm not a fan of leaving the UK, stupid, rabid statements like this make me inclined to reconsider.  

 

 

 

As a Scot, thank you for the well thought out answers to what I believe is typical English ignorance. As for the comment about the Army, Navy, and Air Force.....I think the poster hasn't been in any of the services because if he had he would have known that the service men and women are from all four of the countries that make up the UK. Scotland voted to stay in the EU, so eventually that is what we will be a part of.

[natway09]

Second day in the job & the complexity of the real situation is just about dawning

[RuamRudy]

On 7/26/2019 at 8:08 AM, from the home of CC said:

who would control the oil off the coast - curious not a flame..

There would be no dispute (other than the 6000 sqm of Scottish water inexplicably transferred to England the week before the opening of the Scottish parliament in 1999) as territorial waters are already clearly defined. Any economic benefits derived from those waters will be for the benefit of the country which owns the area. 

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by RuamRudy

[geoffbezoz]

On 7/25/2019 at 5:14 PM, RuamRudy said:

Is democracy rationed now?

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So if Scotland is granted a 2nd referendum do you think the Scottish Parliament would choose to be a republic or go back to having a Scottish Monarchy ? If that were the case who would actually be in line to inherit the throne now as an independent nation ?

[Baerboxer]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

There would be no dispute (other than the 6000 sqm of Scottish water inexplicably transferred to England the week before the opening of the Scottish parliament in 1999) as territorial waters are already clearly defined. Any economic benefits derived from those waters will be for the benefit of the country which owns the area. 

 

 

Yeah right. It will just be the Scottish nationalists dictating how it will be. Good luck with that!

[Baerboxer]

On 7/26/2019 at 4:23 PM, Mansell said:

As a Scot, thank you for the well thought out answers to what I believe is typical English ignorance. As for the comment about the Army, Navy, and Air Force.....I think the poster hasn't been in any of the services because if he had he would have known that the service men and women are from all four of the countries that make up the UK. Scotland voted to stay in the EU, so eventually that is what we will be a part of.

 

What a jolly nice post. One highly educated unbiased non bigot congratulating another highly educated non bigot.

 

It's all English ignorance and poor Scots being so down trodden that's led to all those chips on the shoulders, and current self entitlement arrogance is it?

 

FREEDOM! 

[Baerboxer]

On 7/26/2019 at 3:40 PM, geoffbezoz said:

hope they don't appoint a Canadian or other foreigner to run its own bank !!

 

Hope they pay back all the British taxpayer has had to cough up to keep their inefficient, ineffective crap banks going.

[Baerboxer]

On 7/26/2019 at 1:59 PM, johnnybangkok said:

There's nothing arrogant with what I have said. It's just fact; England doesn't own the pound nor the armed forces. Only a nation state should be given the chance to vote regarding the state of it's nation and Scotland is well aware of the financials if it leaves the UK.

And we know all about arrogant, hypocritical (correct spelling please note) bigots who want to boss everyone else around. Scotland is attached to England after all.  

 

England isn't Britain! Just like Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland aren't.

 

Any vote affecting Britain must be given to all Britain. Not just the few with inferiority complex issues who seem to think they should be dictating how it is to the majority. 

 

Scotland isn't a nation state. Another fake fostered by the deluded nationalists who want to pretend otherwise.

 

Spelling and grammar - the refuge of the small minded; and hence why forum rules specifically prohibit it.

 

Irony also eludes you it seems.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Baerboxer

[Baerboxer]

On 7/26/2019 at 2:29 PM, johnnybangkok said:

One could argue that with just England and Wales (Northern Ireland not being part of Great Britain), there wouldn't be much of a Great Britain left to constitute the name but I'm being obtuse. 

There have been proposals put forward about what happens to the pound which would have to be seen if it can work but my point is it's not just up to the English what happens to a currency that is used by 4 countries.

And just to make things clear, I'm not for Scottish independence but my reply was to combat the inane arrogance of a previous poster who was taking everything away from Scotland because he felt that Scotland wouldn't deserve it. My point was it wasn't his to take away.

 

It's up to the UK government, based in Westminster, what would happen to the pound and all other things British.

 

Not some jumped up regional council with delusions of grandeur.

 

The UK government isn't English. It's British with MP's from all over the UK as well you know.

 

If Scotland left the UK, they would be out, as Mr. Juncker put it out means out. All Scottish MP's would cease to sit in Westminster, and effectively Scotland would have no representation. Therefore by leaving, they take themselves out of the decision making process.

 

Sturgeon was arrogant enough to claim she'd decide on issues such as currency. But most Scots are intelligent enough to see through her.

[Baerboxer]

On 7/26/2019 at 2:47 PM, DougSunee said:

The Pound Sterling is freely traded on International markets and as such a Westminster Government couldn’t stop an Independent Scotland using it. However as the Treasury would still control interest rates I’d rather that Scotland had its own currency as soon as possible after independence.

Prior to joining the Euro Zone countries must be part of the European Rate Mechanism (ERM) membership of the ERM is optional. 

 

Military assets belong to the 4 countries that make up Greater Britain and as such an agreement about their dispersal will have to be reached. 

The exception to this is The Trident Ballistic Missile Fleet that is not up for debate and it will have to be removed, I’m sure the people of the English south coast will welcome their new neighbours with open arms. 

 

 

Er, and what would an independent Scotland use to buy their Pounds Sterling?

 

Scottish bank notes currently in circulation aren't accepted as widely as Bank of England notes.

[Baerboxer]

On 7/26/2019 at 2:50 PM, RuamRudy said:

Scotland is a country, not a region. But you do highlight the main problem - what England wants, England gets and the rest of the home nations have to put up with it.

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That's a problem or blessing of being in a democracy. 

 

But anything different would be undemocratic.

[geoffbezoz]

1 minute ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Er, and what would an independent Scotland use to buy their Pounds Sterling?

 

Scottish bank notes currently in circulation aren't accepted as widely as Bank of England notes.

Don't go down that route please because the way the GBP is going it could itself become an unwanted currency one day.

[Opl]

[Baerboxer]

On 7/26/2019 at 2:58 PM, RuamRudy said:

 

 

 

Would it be better if we Scots, who overwhelmingly rejected Brexit in every single constituency across our country, accept that it is our fate because our larger neighbour demands it?

It certainly doesn't feel like Scots are trying to boss anyone else around. Our government is merely trying to protect our country from the damage that most considered opinion suggests its going to come if Brexit is imposed upon us.

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It would be better if Scottish nationalists started to admit the reality that Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom and that therefore decisions made at the country level, i.e. the government of the UK, affect us all.

 

48% of those who voted wanted to remain 52% to leave. Very small margin. But as much as I dislike it, the vote wasn't a regional one, with regions being able to have different results.

 

Or should the UK scrap Brexit just because Scotland threatens to leave unilaterally? And will make the same threat over and over again perhaps?

 

 

[RuamRudy]

 
Yeah right. It will just be the Scottish nationalists dictating how it will be. Good luck with that!

Dictating? Ownership isn't arbitrary and the days of gunboat diplomacy are long in the past.

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[RuamRudy]

 
It would be better if Scottish nationalists started to admit the reality that Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom and that therefore decisions made at the country level, i.e. the government of the UK, affect us all.
 
48% of those who voted wanted to remain 52% to leave. Very small margin. But as much as I dislike it, the vote wasn't a regional one, with regions being able to have different results.
 
Or should the UK scrap Brexit just because Scotland threatens to leave unilaterally? And will make the same threat over and over again perhaps?
 
 

It is time that many in the UK accepted that UK is no more than a union of countries. That one in those countries has dominated and imposed its will on the others for so long is understandable but that doesn't make it acceptable.

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[RuamRudy]

 
It's up to the UK government, based in Westminster, what would happen to the pound and all other things British.
 
Not some jumped up regional council with delusions of grandeur.
 
The UK government isn't English. It's British with MP's from all over the UK as well you know.
 
If Scotland left the UK, they would be out, as Mr. Juncker put it out means out. All Scottish MP's would cease to sit in Westminster, and effectively Scotland would have no representation. Therefore by leaving, they take themselves out of the decision making process.
 
Sturgeon was arrogant enough to claim she'd decide on issues such as currency. But most Scots are intelligent enough to see through her.

Of course we would have no representation, but that's what we want. Westminster is a toxic pit of self interest and greed. It fails every single person in the UK, but the only people who can effect change are the English electorate and they have failed repeatedly to address the status quo. We don't want representation because we don't the continuation of decades of exploitation by a corrupt government over which we have very limited influence.

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[Slip]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Of course we would have no representation, but that's what we want. Westminster is a toxic pit of self interest and greed. It fails every single person in the UK, but the only people who can effect change are the English electorate and they have failed repeatedly to address the status quo. We don't want representation because we don't the continuation of decades of exploitation by a corrupt government over which we have very limited influence.

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The English either don't care about or celebrate the situation.  Apologies for that.

[aright]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

It is time that many in the UK accepted that UK is no more than a union of countries. That one in those countries has dominated and imposed its will on the others for so long is understandable but that doesn't make it acceptable.

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...............and you want to be free, independent and ruled from Brussels? 

[Jim1000]

I am sure it will be a simple matter to agree who pays what  for the decommissioning  of the North Sea oil rig structures .

[RuamRudy]

I am sure it will be a simple matter to agree who pays what  for the decommissioning  of the North Sea oil rig structures .

Indeed very simple - the oil companies pay.

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[rott]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Westminster is a toxic pit of self interest and greed. It fails every single person in the UK, 

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Sez you anyway. Of course Edinburgh is a haven of selfless democracy.

 

You would follow the Australian model of fenian democracy, as many referendums as it takes until we get the result we want. And then no more.

[RuamRudy]

...............and you want to be free, independent and ruled from Brussels? 

The attachment shows a summary of the devolved and reserved powers under devolution. Those which are indicated as reserved are not held by the EU but by Westminster.

 

Don't forget - the UK did not need to ask the EU for permission to hold the Brexit referendum.

 

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[beautifulthailand99]

On 7/25/2019 at 6:14 PM, RuamRudy said:

Is democracy rationed now?

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Aye it's an English invention - conquered nations remain part of the Empire. 

[RuamRudy]

An interesting pick from Johnson - I wonder how he thinks this will be received, both by Scottish Tory MPs and the wider electorate.

 

I think it's worth pointing out that, with EVEL, Scottish MPs cannot vote on English only matters, but here we have an English MP from an English constituency being given a key role in running the Scottish office.

 

MP for Worcester Robin Walker appointed to Scottish Office

 

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[beautifulthailand99]

Losing Scotland could be part of the long term plan of the dark forces of Conservatism. Scots don't vote Tory , the oil has almost run out and is now a decommissioning liability and is a net drain on the exchequer. A neo-con Nu-England shorn of regulation, rights, and playing the English exceptionalism card wrapped in jingoistic nationalism and the flag that is playing well with the dispossessed English working classes could be framed as the next piece of the bone to to be given them once they are 'freed' of the EU. They will certainly be doing the calculations to see if it stacks up for the elites long term.

 

Dominic Cummings if he lasts (and BoJo) for that matter are beginning to think the unthinkable. The same could go for Northern Ireland England has nothing to gain by keeping it in the Union and a united Ireland would get rid of the dreaded backstop. Wales is going to get a rude awakening if a hard Brexit kicks in - no generous EU regional subsidies and punishing tariffs on their farmers in their biggest markets the EU - and what's left of manufacturing won't last long post-Brexit - that exodus has already started. Boris's extra 20k cops will be essential to keep order once the masses start realising they've been had and are being carved up by the 'elites' they though Brexit was there to slay.

 

All this northern BoJo love bombing northern <deleted> is just for him to win an election - if he gets a big majority he craves they can go whistle for the baubies. Haven't they heard we're broke and will be broker more post Brexit and what government money that is being spent is ripe for privatisation and creaming off for his rich pals that are bankrolling him. Eton is nothing if it isn't the red hot cauldron where the English ruling class build their networks along with nanny-mother's milk and starting from a position of great wealth plan to get wealthier still. I'm starting to understand the rationality of it all at last and that is a tradeable position. 

 

And JRM - the new working class hero of Brexiteers and his writing style guide can go and shove it up his Eton-batty. 

 

“So long as they (the Proles) continued to work and breed, their other activities were without importance. Left to themselves, like cattle turned loose upon the plains of Argentina, they had reverted to a style of life that appeared to be natural to them, a sort of ancestral pattern...Heavy physical work, the care of home and children, petty quarrels with neighbors, films, football, beer and above all, gambling filled up the horizon of their minds. To keep them in control was not difficult.”

― George Orwell, 1984

 

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by beautifulthailand99

[aright]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

The attachment shows a summary of the devolved and reserved powers under devolution. Those which are indicated as reserved are not held by the EU but by Westminster.

 

Don't forget - the UK did not need to ask the EU for permission to hold the Brexit referendum.

 

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Thanks, but that doesn't answer the question I asked does it?

 

...............and you want to be free, independent and ruled from Brussels? 

 

Given a yes vote to be free and  independent so you can do absolutely anything you want  you effectively cancel what you voted for (your desire to be independent ) by handing over powers to Brussels. Can you not see how much of a dichotomy this is.

 

 

[BobBKK]

It's a UNITED Kingdom and Scotland could not survive alone. Anyway they had their chance.