Meeting with immigration about TM30 and the latest news about the petition

[tassieman]

...and...I have been looking up the pros/cons of "investing" in a Thai Elite visa...but I am guessing the TM30 will also apply to this class of visa holders also ???? 

[Max69xl]

6 minutes ago, tassieman said:

...and...I have been looking up the pros/cons of "investing" in a Thai Elite visa...but I am guessing the TM30 will also apply to this class of visa holders also ???? 

You can always move to a province where immigration doesn't require a TM30 to be submitted every time you leave the province and come back to same address. It's one solution.

[wobalt]

The whole 20 years old immigration law needs to be updated to the modern situation. The TM30 discussion makes that clearly visible.
My Thai wife for example lives in Germany and has permanent residency there., 20 years she has not visited Thailand. But due to the fact she still holds a Thai passport she would be considered as permanent resident when she returns for some weeks to her house.
Even she clearly doesn’t live there? Very weird!


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[DrTuner]

37 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

You can always move to a province where immigration doesn't require a TM30 to be submitted every time you leave the province and come back to same address. It's one solution.

Yes one of the determining factors on where one settles must be the TM30 practices, which may change ever 15secs. Seriously...

[Max69xl]

18 minutes ago, wobalt said:

The whole 20 years old immigration law needs to be updated to the modern situation. The TM30 discussion makes that clearly visible.
My Thai wife for example lives in Germany and has permanent residency there., 20 years she has not visited Thailand. But due to the fact she still holds a Thai passport she would be considered as permanent resident when she returns for some weeks to her house.
Even she clearly doesn’t live there? Very weird!


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It's same for everybody with dual citizenships and having two passports.

[holy cow cm]

59 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

How do you think it works in,for example Vietnam? You can't stay where you want and they also know exactly where you are all the time. Now,in the USA, when you enter, you have to submit usernames on social medias. Thai governments loves paperwork. The sad part is that they don't realize that the TM30-form is not the smartest way to filter out the "bad guys". 

Vietnam you can stay where you want and you never have this BS of feeling and being treated like a wild animal. USA is also wrong. You don't have to submit squat. They would like you to tell them where you will be residing though. After that there is zero-nada-zilch! No tracking, no monitoring no being treated like a criminal wild animal. Go where you want and go back to the original place where your home base is and feeling free. 

[Max69xl]

9 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Yes one of the determining factors on where one settles must be the TM30 practices, which may change ever 15secs. Seriously...

There are guys in this forum who claims they are leaving their provinces 2-3 times a month. So, yes,I am serious about the option to stay where the requirements are less demanding. 

[Max69xl]

4 minutes ago, holy cow cm said:

Vietnam you can stay where you want and you never have this BS of feeling and being treated like a wild animal. USA is also wrong. You don't have to submit squat. They would like you to tell them where you will be residing though. After that there is zero-nada-zilch! No tracking, no monitoring no being treated like a criminal wild animal. Go where you want and go back to the original place where your home base is and feeling free. 

Check out this article!

 

https://www.rferl.org/a/new-u-s-visa-rules-may-push-foreigners-to-censor-their-posts/30005463.html

[wobalt]

Permanent residency in 2 countries??


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[holy cow cm]

4 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

Check out this article!

 

https://www.rferl.org/a/new-u-s-visa-rules-may-push-foreigners-to-censor-their-posts/30005463.html

Means diddley squat. Does not effect the ones already there with long term 10 year visas and/or green card holders and all one has to do is say no have or make a new one before as a shell that they don't use and then a new one after they really use. Impossible to monitor and so what. It says for new people who want to do employment and all you have to do is say you use no platforms and/or delete the old ones making it untraceable.

[Salerno]

31 minutes ago, wobalt said:

But due to the fact she still holds a Thai passport she would be considered as permanent resident when she returns for some weeks to her house.

Not seeing your point here, she'd just be a Thai coming home and no dumb laws such as TM30 reporting apply to her.

[Max69xl]

3 hours ago, Martyp said:

I’ve currently informed my landlady that I will be visiting the US in September. My plan is to email her when I arrive in Bangkok and send her a photo of my TM6. The point of informing her is to give her a heads up about my arrival date so she can be ready to file the TM30 within the 24 hour filing window. She has a life too and sometimes is busy or traveling. She is good about getting back to me when I email her but occasionally it takes a week when she is traveling. If she wasn’t going to be available on my return I would make arrangements to go and self file. My landlord wants to do the online filing. Just because it is the landlords responsibility to file the TM30 doesn’t mean they have to be ready and available to you 24 hours a day. I think my landlord owns and rents several condos but she doesn’t have any staff to assist her.

Exactly my point. To tell the landlord you're leaving and when you're coming back can never be wrong.

[DrTuner]

14 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

Check out this article!

 

https://www.rferl.org/a/new-u-s-visa-rules-may-push-foreigners-to-censor-their-posts/30005463.html

Confirms what I've been telling everybody since the late 90's. Do not offer any information in online places like facebook or kiss your privacy goodbye forever.

[Max69xl]

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

In addition to this thread, there are many others on the subject of TM28/TM30 and TM47. These are clearly issues and some people have genuine concerns.

 

I fully support Sebastian and his group in their attempts to get the Thai authorities to think again about the TM30 issue and have signed the petition.  However, it seems clear that the authorities want to 'keep tabs on us' and I think modification is the best that can be hoped for.

 

I've been giving these issues some thought and have an idea that may solve the problems.  There are many of you that will pour scorn on this and still moan. However, I think its clear that you are either going to have to accept some form of reporting or leave. So, whilst I very much welcome constructive criticism, I'm not going to get involved in replying/arguing with all you Negative Neddies out there.

 

It seems crazy to me that there are now 4 different systems of reporting where you are staying - TM6, TM28, TM30 and TM47.  Why not have one system, a system that is the responsibility of the foreigner? Bring all the reporting procedures into one and do that through a simple phone/computer application?

 

Yes, it would be your responsibility but many of you have that anyway in the form of the TM47 90 day report.  I am also aware that some people have problems with getting the online applications for TM30 & TM47 to work but that can be fixed. Let's just say for a moment that a simple application was available, one that worked and it was simply to register where you are staying.  You would only use it once when you enter the country and then each time you move. I am registered for online TM30 and I can tell you that it works and it only takes a couple of minutes. Those on long stay would use the application to subsitute for their 90 day report (as they should be able to do now).

 

You wouldn't have any fights with your landlord over who's responsibility it is to report you and you wouldn't have problems with absentee landlords.  Although I register TM30 online, that registration only covers the registered address. If I stay at my girlfriend's house or with friends, technically that address should also be registered before a report can be made. Realistically, who's going to do that? But if you don't, you are in breach of the current rules - and depending on which Immigration area you fall under, that may or may not be a problem.

 

If you could simply state that you are at XYZ address and do it in a few mouse clicks - surely that would end these current complicated and difficult to comply with, procedures. You would only do it if you stay away from your originally registered address and would do it again when you return.

 

I am aware that there may be a small number of people that don't have access to a smartphone or a computer but put that to one side for now - wouldn't it be easier if there was just one registration rather than 4?  There may be flaws but as far as I can see, both us as 'visitors' and the Thai authorities would find such a system far easier and each should be satisfied.

 

Unless you find spending 2 minutes on your phone/computer a particularly difficult task?

The TM6 address are more of an initial planned address. Many people coming back to Thailand are staying in BKK maybe one night,before going to their home.

The address on the TM30 is your permanent address,a condo or a house out in the sticks.

The TM47 you only submit once, when you do your first 90-days report. After that you only show your passport with the the next report day-slip stapled to it.

So,the problem is the TM30-form depending on where you're staying in Thailand.

[Max69xl]

12 minutes ago, holy cow cm said:

Means diddley squat. Does not effect the ones already there with long term 10 year visas and/or green card holders and all one has to do is say no have or make a new one before as a shell that they don't use and then a new one after they really use. Impossible to monitor and so what. It says for new people who want to do employment and all you have to do is say you use no platforms and/or delete the old ones making it untraceable.

I am talking aabout visitors from about May-June,not already long staying when you didn't have the new requirement. Don't say this isn't monitoring people?

[holy cow cm]

3 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

I am talking aabout visitors from about May-June,not already long staying when you didn't have the new requirement. Don't say this isn't monitoring people?

Means nothing and all you say is NA as is untraceable or add a new one to make it believable. The US already has AI that covers and is triggered by key words, phrases for media. And no it is not tracking you like a dog.

[drbeach]

1 hour ago, wobalt said:

The whole 20 years old immigration law needs to be updated to the modern situation. The TM30 discussion makes that clearly visible.
My Thai wife for example lives in Germany and has permanent residency there., 20 years she has not visited Thailand. But due to the fact she still holds a Thai passport she would be considered as permanent resident when she returns for some weeks to her house.
Even she clearly doesn’t live there? Very weird!


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I agree although it is 40 years old, not merely 20! The law was made in 1979, it's 2019 now.

[drbeach]

43 minutes ago, holy cow cm said:

Vietnam you can stay where you want and you never have this BS of feeling and being treated like a wild animal. USA is also wrong. You don't have to submit squat. They would like you to tell them where you will be residing though. After that there is zero-nada-zilch! No tracking, no monitoring no being treated like a criminal wild animal. Go where you want and go back to the original place where your home base is and feeling free. 

Vietnam has the same law in effect. You may not know it, but it's there. I remember staying a friend's place there years ago and feeling at unease because I was never registered (nothing happened, but still). At the time I was only vaguely aware of Thailand having a similar law, but always felt more at ease in Thailand because everything here is so relaxed with most rules just not being enforced...until now that is.

Also, the authorities in that country don't allow foreigners to "stay where they want". This is not true at all. There are many "nha nghis" or guesthouses which don't allow foreigners to stay because they don't have the requisite license, or they are places where prostitutes gather. Foreigners are not allowed to reside or travel to border areas, except presumably near international border crossings. I have read reports of foreigners being awoken at 3am by police when found to be staying in private accommodation out in the countryside where foreigners don't usually stay. I've never heard of something like this happening in Thailand.

 

If this happened in the USA, I can imagine civil liberties groups would be crying "racism" and "police state" from the roof tops and the negative publicity it creates could possibly cause civil unrest similar to what's currently happening in Hong Kong. Eventually, the government would probably bury the legislation. Whereas in Thailand, aside from the OP of this post and a few bloggers like Richard Barrow and a few articles in the media along with discontent among expats, it's pretty much crickets. It seems Thais don't care (or if they do, their voices aren't being heard) and no one aside from expats is pointing out the obvious negative effects it has on Thailand's reputation not to mention the economic impact. I think we should be making more noise about this and come together as a community. There is no community among expats here in Thailand, it's every man for himself, which is a dangerous thing and the exact opposite of what it should be like, given the type of country Thailand is.

 

I disagree with Barrow when he says he simply wants the law to be more transparent and that it will remain for "national security reasons". No, it should be abolished. Besides, if all foreigners are considered to be a "security risk" then what point is there for any foreigner to remain here? By having us gone, the "security risk" would disappear, wouldn't it? Would make more sense if we all voted with our feet. Of course, this can not realistically happen overnight, but it's something I'm seriously considering in the medium term, depending on how things go.

[drbeach]

4 hours ago, Martyp said:

I’ve currently informed my landlady that I will be visiting the US in September. My plan is to email her when I arrive in Bangkok and send her a photo of my TM6. The point of informing her is to give her a heads up about my arrival date so she can be ready to file the TM30 within the 24 hour filing window. She has a life too and sometimes is busy or traveling. She is good about getting back to me when I email her but occasionally it takes a week when she is traveling. If she wasn’t going to be available on my return I would make arrangements to go and self file. My landlord wants to do the online filing. Just because it is the landlords responsibility to file the TM30 doesn’t mean they have to be ready and available to you 24 hours a day. I think my landlord owns and rents several condos but she doesn’t have any staff to assist her.

I've heard of this a lot. Didn't realize so many Thai landlords like to travel. Most Thais just stay in one place and rarely travel, must be something about landlords that causes them to want to travel so often.

 

Why not do the reporting yourself? Don't bother her with all this. It's not her fault this country has such ridiculous laws, which Thais seemingly don't make any effort towards changing, because Thais are not fundamentally people who are freedom minded - they prefer the "sabai sabai" everything will be fine approach, not realizing that, unless you protest and try to stop freedom grabbing governments it will eventually be too late. It's not just a Thai thing, it's probably an Asian thing. Which is why authoritarian governments have been able to take hold in practically every country throughout the region.

[DrTuner]

1 hour ago, wobalt said:

The whole 20 years old immigration law needs to be updated to the modern situation. The TM30 discussion makes that clearly visible.
My Thai wife for example lives in Germany and has permanent residency there., 20 years she has not visited Thailand. But due to the fact she still holds a Thai passport she would be considered as permanent resident when she returns for some weeks to her house.
Even she clearly doesn’t live there? Very weird!


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Your post has the magic word in it. "Permanent". All of the TM problems would vanish if the PR route was opened again. As it seems to have been when the immigration act was done. Made sense then, would make sense now. But Thais bastardized the temporary stays to "long stay" and effectively closed the PR for married and investors by putting in the 3y work permit requirement. Remove that and it'd be golden again.

[DrTuner]

1 minute ago, drbeach said:

I've heard of this a lot. Didn't realize so many Thai landlords like to travel. Most Thais just stay in one place and rarely travel, must be something about landlords that causes them to want to travel so often.

Thais with money do travel a lot and mostly outside Thailand. Not a surprise at all.

[drbeach]

3 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Your post has the magic word in it. "Permanent". All of the TM problems would vanish if the PR route was opened again. As it seems to have been when the immigration act was done. Made sense then, would make sense now. But Thais bastardized the temporary stays to "long stay" and effectively closed the PR for married and investors by putting in the 3y work permit requirement. Remove that and it'd be golden again.

I'm confused. I thought PR has had a 3-year work permit requirement for many years.

 

Also, people are still being issued with PR. There were never many issued, not even years ago.

 

A better option is to go straight for citizenship, if married to a Thai. This wasn't an option years ago, is now though. 

 

In any case, PR doesn't solve this TM30 problem for most people as only small numbers would ever be eligible or desire it. A better solution is a complete reform of immigration law.

[DrTuner]

1 minute ago, drbeach said:

I'm confused. I thought PR has had a 3-year work permit requirement for many years.

Yes, at least since 2007 when I first looked at it. However old timers here will tell you it was easier before. Currently the investor and married categories make no sense since they are effectively same as working.

 

As for nationality, some countries do not allow dual nationality and being Thai is only advantage within Thailand, a handicap otherwise.

 

Reforming the law is one option yes but I'll be pushing daisies by the time it would be done (40 years give or take). Opening the PR would be quick.

[drbeach]

4 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Thais with money do travel a lot and mostly outside Thailand. Not a surprise at all.

Thais started traveling overseas about 6-8 years ago, before that it didn't matter where you arrived from, Thais were only ever a tiny minority of the passengers on any given flight. There are many Thais who now visit neighboring countries too. However, Thais are more likely to fly to Laos than drive, despite the relatively short distance. There are more Lao cars driving across the border than Thai ones heading in the other direction, which is strange considering that Thais are on average richer than Laotians and there are far more cars registered in Thailand than Lao. The same applies to the Malaysian, Cambodian and Burmese borders.

 

I still think Thais mostly travel within Thailand as opposed to outside of Thailand. However, Thais are now getting on the visit Japan bandwagon with about a million visiting every year. More and more are also visiting countries like Vietnam and also Bali. 10-15 years ago, the only Thais that traveled overseas were spouses of farang and a small number of rich elite. Even so, with the possible exception of some regional flights, I have never seen an international flight with more Thai than foreign passengers on it. Contrast this with Indian/Chinese flights where the vast majority of passengers are always citizens of those countries, irrespective of the route.

[drbeach]

5 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Yes, at least since 2007 when I first looked at it. However old timers here will tell you it was easier before. Currently the investor and married categories make no sense since they are effectively same as working.

 

As for nationality, some countries do not allow dual nationality and being Thai is only advantage within Thailand, a handicap otherwise.

 

Reforming the law is one option yes but I'll be pushing daisies by the time it would be done (40 years give or take). Opening the PR would be quick.

Thai nationality is not a handicap for living in Thailand; quite the opposite. It's also an advantage for traveling around ASEAN - no visa required. For some countries like Russia, no visa required either. Also, for quick trips across the border a border pass is all that's needed and you can even cross at locals only borders. You can also own land and work any job you want.

 

Most countries (especially western countries) DO allow dual citizenship and I think if you intend to remain in Thailand permanently, even IF you needed to give up your other nationality, so what? Why would you need to retain a foreign nationality when you have no intention of moving back to that country? That mentality is pretty bizarre.

 

Of course if you don't intend to remain here forever, that's different.

 

PR doesn't offer you much - you still need a work permit and probably won't be given Thai prices at national parks, whereas with citizenship you will be. Also, you can't own land.

 

It could be that PR was easier to get 30 or 40 years ago, but times have changed since then. Also, I thought that foreign women marrying Thai men could still receive instant citizenship? Why is that not being talked about?

Edited August 11, 2019 by drbeach

[DrTuner]

Ah right forgot to mention nationality requires work permit history too. Not applicable for those with passive income, such as pensioneers. 

[RBOP]

I'm your landlord. You will tell me everytime you leave for 24 hours to another province or out of the country and when you return immediately because I have to report to the Führer . 

 

Father. 

[holy cow cm]

33 minutes ago, drbeach said:

Vietnam has the same law in effect. You may not know it, but it's there. I remember staying a friend's place there years ago and feeling at unease because I was never registered (nothing happened, but still). At the time I was only vaguely aware of Thailand having a similar law, but always felt more at ease in Thailand because everything here is so relaxed with most rules just not being enforced...until now that is.

Also, the authorities in that country don't allow foreigners to "stay where they want". This is not true at all. There are many "nha nghis" or guesthouses which don't allow foreigners to stay because they don't have the requisite license, or they are places where prostitutes gather. Foreigners are not allowed to reside or travel to border areas, except presumably near international border crossings. I have read reports of foreigners being awoken at 3am by police when found to be staying in private accommodation out in the countryside where foreigners don't usually stay. I've never heard of something like this happening in Thailand.

 

If this happened in the USA, I can imagine civil liberties groups would be crying "racism" and "police state" from the roof tops and the negative publicity it creates could possibly cause civil unrest similar to what's currently happening in Hong Kong. Eventually, the government would probably bury the legislation. Whereas in Thailand, aside from the OP of this post and a few bloggers like Richard Barrow and a few articles in the media along with discontent among expats, it's pretty much crickets. It seems Thais don't care (or if they do, their voices aren't being heard) and no one aside from expats is pointing out the obvious negative effects it has on Thailand's reputation not to mention the economic impact. I think we should be making more noise about this and come together as a community. There is no community among expats here in Thailand, it's every man for himself, which is a dangerous thing and the exact opposite of what it should be like, given the type of country Thailand is.

 

I disagree with Barrow when he says he simply wants the law to be more transparent and that it will remain for "national security reasons". No, it should be abolished. Besides, if all foreigners are considered to be a "security risk" then what point is there for any foreigner to remain here? By having us gone, the "security risk" would disappear, wouldn't it? Would make more sense if we all voted with our feet. Of course, this can not realistically happen overnight, but it's something I'm seriously considering in the medium term, depending on how things go.

Go there all the time for many reasons and they have never enforced anything for all the years of going. Maybe on the books, but maybe again only out in the sticks if you stay at someone's home as in general there are zero foreigners out in the sticks and it becomes well known a foreigner is in the neighborhood. Feels like we are in a zoo actually... Not sure about living there, but I don't think you have to report coming and going  from your place. I have had some hotels hold my passport and most all others do not. But, never scrutinized at all for anything there. Even larger hotels do not apply the prostitute law or not married law when staying as is an old stale law. 

[jackdd]

35 minutes ago, drbeach said:

I'm confused. I thought PR has had a 3-year work permit requirement for many years.

 

Also, people are still being issued with PR. There were never many issued, not even years ago.

I don't know how the reality was before before 1979 (when they introduced the current immigration laws), back then i wasn't even born yet.

But from what i've read i got the impression that back then most people who did stay in the country long term were able to get permanent residency after they spent a few years in Thailand, because nearly all of them came to Thailand to work (no visa option for retirees and working online wasn't possible)

So at the point when they made the current immigration act, most people who were staying long term in Thailand had permanent residency, only short term visitors didn't. This was the foundation for making the laws.

They didn't see a need to track people who stay long term, so the TM30 is only required for people who stay in Thailand temporarily.

 

After this immigration act was enacted they introduced visas for retirees, and people married to Thais., which allows them to stay endlessly in Thailand (one year at a time), but by law these people are considered to be in Thailand temporarily so they fall under the same regulations as tourists.

 

After 40 years they should just rewrite the immigration act to adapt better to todays demography

Edited August 11, 2019 by jackdd

[Martyp]

34 minutes ago, drbeach said:

I've heard of this a lot. Didn't realize so many Thai landlords like to travel. Most Thais just stay in one place and rarely travel, must be something about landlords that causes them to want to travel so often.

 

Why not do the reporting yourself? Don't bother her with all this. It's not her fault this country has such ridiculous laws, which Thais seemingly don't make any effort towards changing, because Thais are not fundamentally people who are freedom minded - they prefer the "sabai sabai" everything will be fine approach, not realizing that, unless you protest and try to stop freedom grabbing governments it will eventually be too late. It's not just a Thai thing, it's probably an Asian thing. Which is why authoritarian governments have been able to take hold in practically every country throughout the region.

I initially offered to do it myself and offered to pay the fine. She wanted to do it herself. After 3 weeks of waiting for an online password she went to CW, filed the TM30 in person, and told me not to worry about the fine. She also sent me a photo of the TM30 receipt. She is a very nice landlord. She sent us a wedding present when I got married in March.

 

Now that she has an online account I would prefer to have the password and do it myself. I suggested that but she insisted she wants to do it. She is being helpful and responsible. I don’t want to annoy her too much about this. I will see how this works over time and I’m sure we will work out an arrangement. It’s a work in progress but at least I don’t have an uncooperative landlady.