Israel bars U.S. Democratic lawmakers under pressure from Trump

[Morch]

3 hours ago, losworld said:

So looks like Israel is unable to take any criticism of its policies... sad state.

 

So looks like some posters are unwilling to read the OP or to have a clear grasp of the views expressed by the two congresswomen.

 

The Israeli decision was, initially, to allow the visit. Even it being a provocation tour, this seemed less harmful than a confrontation with the Democrat Party and American public opinion. Things changed following WH/Trump pressure. So regardless how Israel's government felt about the visit, this is more about Trump and USA politics.

 

Between them, the two congresswomen engaged in advocating boycott of Israel, issuing antisemitic statements, expressing views essentially equating with dismantling of the country, and others. This isn't quite legitimate or reasonable criticism. There's no compulsion to engage with such views.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Becker said:

Yet again the traitor in the WH sides with foreign heads of state against Americans. 

Last time it was with his BFF Kim against Biden, now it's these ladies.

Throw his fat, orange @ss in jail. 

 

I wouldn't know that Trump is a traitor, but that's the sort of rhetoric style which gets traction and inspiration from his presidency.

 

The foreign head of state initially accepted the visit to be carried out, regardless of how he felt about it. Things changed following WH/Trump pressure. Not quite what you're on about, but in a sense - worse.

[dexterm]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

So looks like some posters are unwilling to read the OP or to have a clear grasp of the views expressed by the two congresswomen.

 

The Israeli decision was, initially, to allow the visit. Even it being a provocation tour, this seemed less harmful than a confrontation with the Democrat Party and American public opinion. Things changed following WH/Trump pressure. So regardless how Israel's government felt about the visit, this is more about Trump and USA politics.

 

Between them, the two congresswomen engaged in advocating boycott of Israel, issuing antisemitic statements, expressing views essentially equating with dismantling of the country, and others. This isn't quite legitimate or reasonable criticism. There's no compulsion to engage with such views.

BDS advocates a boycott of goods originating in the illegally occupied West Bank falsely labelled as coming from Israel.

 

The 2 Congresswomen have never said or done anything anti Semitic...that's just your myth making.

 

"expressing views essentially equating with dismantling of the country"...utter nonsense.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

If many readers and viewers were not previously aware of issues surrounding the Israeli Palestinian conflict, they are now. Nice one Donald.

 

This could have been a PR coup for Israel.."Look how open we are!"..but not anymore. More are now aware of the truth about Israeli repression.

 

Looks like Netanyahu has now made criticism of Israel illegal, and members of the US Congress which have given $billions of aid to Israel are only welcome if they agree with Netanyahu's and Trump's policies. No dissent welcome in the the only so called democracy in the Middle East. Not only can Israel restrict the freedom of movement of 4.5 million indigenous Palestinians under illegal occupation, they can prevent the entry of anyone who shows any non violent sympathy for the Palestinians too.

 

It's a slippery slope for a so called democracy if the only way it thinks it can survive is by stifling any criticism. A clear sign of weakness.

 

To the credit of AIPAC, and other Jewish leaders such as Bernie Sanders and Chuck Schumer, they have also condemned Netanyahu's move.

 

“Banning Congresswomen Omar and Tlaib from entering Israel and Palestine is a sign of enormous disrespect to these elected leaders, to the United States Congress, and to the principles of democracy,” the Vermont senator Bernie Sanders tweeted.
He added: “It is disgusting that a bigot like Trump is attacking @RashidaTlaib and @IlhanMN in this way. Opposing Netanyahu’s policies is not ‘hating the Jewish people.’
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/15/israels-decision-to-block-congresswomen-omar-and-tlaib-draws-widespread-criticism?

 

“Denying entry to members of the United States Congress is a sign of weakness, not strength. It will only hurt the U.S.-Israeli relationship and support for Israel in America. No democratic society should fear an open debate. Many strong supporters of Israel will be deeply disappointed in this decision, which the Israeli government should reverse.”
https://www.democrats.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/schumer-statement-on-israels-decision-to-deny-entry-to-members-of-the-united-states-congress

 

“Israel doesn’t advance its case as a tolerant democracy or unwavering US ally by barring elected members of Congress from visiting because of their political views,” said Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren. “This would be a shameful, unprecedented move. I urge Israel’s government to allow @IlhanMN and @RashidaTlaib entry.” 
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-advocates-in-us-warn-jerusalems-barring-of-omar-tlaib-will-hurt-it/
 

 

You seem to gloss over the fact that the visit was initially approved - with full knowledge of the two congress-women's agendas and views. What came later wasn't so much an Israeli initiative, but rather WH/Trump pressure.

[Morch]

59 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Just because a country can make its own rules, don't make its rules right.

 

History is littered with other such sovereign nations (some quite recent and even current) making rules which seem vile to us now.

 

And you not agreeing with rules that do not match your agenda doesn't make them wrong or vile. History is littered with a whole lot of things, but surely you thought you had a point there.

[BestB]

6 minutes ago, dexterm said:

BDS advocates a boycott of goods originating in the illegally occupied West Bank falsely labelled as coming from Israel.

 

The 2 Congresswomen have never said or done anything anti Semitic...that's just your myth making.

 

"expressing views essentially equating with dismantling of the country"...utter nonsense.

Yup, never, so never that it almost split Democrats 

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/07/700901834/minnesota-congresswoman-ignites-debate-on-israel-and-anti-semitism

[Morch]

52 minutes ago, dexterm said:

It would please me greatly is Israel became a genuine western democracy giving equal rights to all the people under its control regardless of race or religion.

 

Not much to ask for a country that receives $billions in aid from US taxpayers. And it could start by allowing entry to 2 US Congress women who oversee how that aid is put to use. That's their job.

 

It would please me if posters would be at least a trifle honest about their views, and recall that their posting history is out there.

 

What you're pushing for is a country that is not Israel, but another entity. And as you do not hold Palestinians accountable for anything, said country would have half or more of the population with a carte blanche for anything.

 

That's without getting into the standing comment about your "views" failing to reference ME realities, or even those more directly relevant to the conflict - but not as "useful" for your agenda.

 

Their visit had nothing to do with overseeing how aid funds were put to use. Both pretty much oppose such aid anyway.

[4675636b596f75]

As far as the despicable Congress Critters Tlaib and Omar, they are a poor representation of The United States of America.  They both hate America and love socialism.  We should figure out how to ban them in the USA.  

[Morch]

22 minutes ago, dexterm said:

BDS advocates a boycott of goods originating in the illegally occupied West Bank falsely labelled as coming from Israel.

 

The 2 Congresswomen have never said or done anything anti Semitic...that's just your myth making.

 

"expressing views essentially equating with dismantling of the country"...utter nonsense.

 

There are various versions and views incorporated in the BDS movement. Many are far more extreme than the mild version you misleadingly tout as "it". You yourself, on many past posts, have expressed views in line with more extreme versions of BDS.

 

One of them certainly did make several comments which were construed as antisemitic. It was widely covered on media outlets, and was even discussed on this forum (with your participation). Her own party distanced itself from such statements and she was rebuked.

 

The other congresswoman is a one-state supporter, and of a version which basically implies Israel will be replaced with another political construct. You can spin it all you like.

 

 

[RJRS1301]

8 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

Don't know if I agree with you.  Barack HUSSEIN Obama has some kills and notches on his bedpost.  Why he killed a 16-year-old American Boy with a drone.  That counts for something, doesn't it?

Happened on his watch, but do you hold Trump personally responsible for all deaths caused by gun violence in USA?

 

[Becker]

10 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

As far as the despicable Congress Critters Tlaib and Omar, they are a poor representation of The United States of America.  They both hate America and love socialism.  We should figure out how to ban them in the USA.  

So people who you disagree with should be "banned" in the US.

Hillary was spot on.

[RJRS1301]

As far as the despicable Congress Critters Tlaib and Omar, they are a poor representation of The United States of America.  They both hate America and love socialism.  We should figure out how to ban them in the USA. 

 

 

Strangely being a democracy allows one to disagree with government policies and actions, if you want free speech you must allow all to have the same right, as long as they don not incite others to violence or hate.

Perhaps they "hate" some of the bigotry they see expressed in some form by others and name it.

 

[dexterm]

30 minutes ago, BestB said:

Yup, never, so never that it almost split Democrats 

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/07/700901834/minnesota-congresswoman-ignites-debate-on-israel-and-anti-semitism

Your link is rubbish.

 

In your link, she said "It's all about the Benjamins". She was 100% correct. 70 new Congress members who "think right" have been admitted and are as I write on all expenses paid tours of Israel (but they wont be visiting Palestinians in the West Bank villages to hear their side of the story!), and of course AIPAC and other PACS and individuals can buy influence in US politics. It's a totally venal system.

 

The other accusation in your link, Omar: "I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is OK for people to push for allegiance to a foreign country."
She was 100% correct again. Look at Trump's behavior in the OP for crying out loud.

 

She has said or done nothing anti Semitic at all. Where has she ever preached blind hatred of Jews simply because they are born Jewish? That's what anti Semitism really is and you demean that currency by crying wolf every time some criticizes the current Israeli government.

[dexterm]

20 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There are various versions and views incorporated in the BDS movement. Many are far more extreme than the mild version you misleadingly tout as "it". You yourself, on many past posts, have expressed views in line with more extreme versions of BDS.

 

One of them certainly did make several comments which were construed as antisemitic. It was widely covered on media outlets, and was even discussed on this forum (with your participation). Her own party distanced itself from such statements and she was rebuked.

 

The other congresswoman is a one-state supporter, and of a version which basically implies Israel will be replaced with another political construct. You can spin it all you like.

 

 

The usual obfuscation to avoid addressing the point.

 

I suggest you consult the BDS website for clarification.

 

Israel can have a two state or one state solution. Looks like with the help of Trump's cheerleading its headed for the latter. 

 

There are numerous constitutional and security checks and balances that could ensure Israel would always be a safe haven for Jews who are genuinely persecuted or simply want to live there for religious, cultural or family reasons, but could also allow Palestinians equal rights in their own land.

 

[metisdead]

Some inflammatory and offensive posts and replies have been removed. 

[Jingthing]

Well I was wrong. 

Tlaib won't accept the restrictions and won't take the trip to visit her Grandma.

I don't blame her for that but that's a shame and this entire mess was completely avoidable if only "trump" had kept his piehole shut. 

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

It would please me if posters would be at least a trifle honest about their views, and recall that their posting history is out there.

 

What you're pushing for is a country that is not Israel, but another entity. And as you do not hold Palestinians accountable for anything, said country would have half or more of the population with a carte blanche for anything.

 

That's without getting into the standing comment about your "views" failing to reference ME realities, or even those more directly relevant to the conflict - but not as "useful" for your agenda.

 

Their visit had nothing to do with overseeing how aid funds were put to use. Both pretty much oppose such aid anyway.

Disinformation again!

 

>>Their visit had nothing to do with overseeing how aid funds were put to use. Both pretty much oppose such aid anyway.

"As a member of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, it is my job to conduct oversight of foreign aid from the United States of America and to legislate on human rights practices around the world. The irony of the 'only democracy' in the Middle East making such a decision is that it is both an insult to democratic values and a chilling response to a visit by government officials from an allied nation."
https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Rashida-Tlaib-and-Ilhan-Omar-respond-to-Israels-decision-to-bar-them-598786

[Baerboxer]

15 hours ago, RJRS1301 said:

Both democratic countries?

Seems democracy is only for the favoured

 

Interesting.

 

Is it democratic for people elected to represent the interests of electors in one country to spend their efforts, time and tax payers money to fight issues in another country? 

 

These two women are seeking to promote their religion and in one's case her ethnicity in a foreign country by using their acquired status as elected officials of a powerful country.

 

So presumably they, and you, would be o k if Israeli members of parliament came to the USA and campaigned for opponents of these women and their party? Or perhaps Russian MP's came over and campaigned for Trump? Or Chinese MP's came over and campaigned against him and his making their one sided trade more difficult?

 

These days it seems "democracy" in the view of some, means that Muslims, blacks, Palestinians, illegal economic migrants and corrupt socialists must be allowed to do as they please and lecture everyone else on how they can behave.

 

If either of these women represented me as an elector, I'd be pretty pissed off. Is this one of their election "promises"?

[Baerboxer]

5 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Disinformation again!

 

>>Their visit had nothing to do with overseeing how aid funds were put to use. Both pretty much oppose such aid anyway.

"As a member of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, it is my job to conduct oversight of foreign aid from the United States of America and to legislate on human rights practices around the world. The irony of the 'only democracy' in the Middle East making such a decision is that it is both an insult to democratic values and a chilling response to a visit by government officials from an allied nation."
https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Rashida-Tlaib-and-Ilhan-Omar-respond-to-Israels-decision-to-bar-them-598786

 

How many previous members of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs have visited foreign countries after making extremely derogatory comments about the country and advocating boycott's and sanctions against that country?

 

As she is a Muslim, of Palestinian extraction, with a grandmother still living there; and known for strong anti Israeli sentiments, are we really expected to believe she will simply carry out her role and conduct unbiased oversight? Would she support Israeli MP's scrutinizing things in America, such as anti anti-semtism ?

[Sujo]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

 

Oh dear, another semantics complainer. I did not "misquote" you. Your post appeared in its entirety.

 

Israelis aren't obliged to hear what these two have to say (and quite a bit of it was publicly aired already anyway). Coming to a country in order to preach one-sided, extreme and bigoted politics isn't quite the done thing when it comes to diplomacy.

 

I have a pretty good idea what their visit was about - based on both their expressed views and on their visit program. Pretending this wasn't a provocation tour is, again, disingenuous.

 

You may want to read the OP again. Their visit was originally approved, and the decision changed following WH/Trump pressure. The "lack of open democratic principles", if this applies, would be relevant to Trump intervention in the Israeli government's decision.

 

Whether you like it or not, countries aren't compelled to allow free entry to all. Often reason cited refer to political or social views. I think the UK got a pretty extensive list of USA citizens banned and barred on such grounds.

 

And it is funny you should mention banning Trump for visiting - far as I recall some of those whining about the principle of it etc. had not issues cheering the opposite view when it suited. But then, that might be expecting too much consistency from posters.

 

Again misquoting and misrepresenting what I said. No surprise there.

 

1. I never said israel was obliged to do anything. My subsequent posts made that clear that israel can do whatever it likes, its the fact trump intervened that i said was wrong.

 

2. Preaching 1 sided extreme and bigoted policies are not confined to these two. Netanyahu is quite good at that.

 

3. Pretending you think you know what they will say and do is only your opinion, nothing else.

 

4. I know it was approved then denied after trump got involved. I have posted that same thing. Take your biased blinkers off.

 

5. I did not say they must be compelled to allow them, i even stated in other posts that israel can do what they want, but it was trumps intervention that was wrong. So please do learn to read.

 

6. My comment re trump being banned was a sarcastic response to those thinking its ok to ban the congresswomen simply because they dont like their views.

 

so you really should learn to read posts and a bit of comprehension before you go off track misrepresenting my posts. Yet again.

 

you do have a bad habit of that, even with dexterms posts you denigrate his opinions with your own but offer nothing on facts.

[Baerboxer]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

So looks like some posters are unwilling to read the OP or to have a clear grasp of the views expressed by the two congresswomen.

 

The Israeli decision was, initially, to allow the visit. Even it being a provocation tour, this seemed less harmful than a confrontation with the Democrat Party and American public opinion. Things changed following WH/Trump pressure. So regardless how Israel's government felt about the visit, this is more about Trump and USA politics.

 

Between them, the two congresswomen engaged in advocating boycott of Israel, issuing antisemitic statements, expressing views essentially equating with dismantling of the country, and others. This isn't quite legitimate or reasonable criticism. There's no compulsion to engage with such views.

 

Anyone who pretends that these two opinionated Muslim ladies aren't following their Pro-Palestinian Pro-Muslim anti-semetic anti-Israel agendas is either extremely naive, foolish or pushing their own similar agenda.

 

An interesting similarity. The American left, the Democrats, like the British left, the Labor Party, both seem to be adopting anti Jewish pro Muslim stands. Although denying it of course. Islam as a political system as well as religion, has always got on well with totalitarian dictatorships that deny democracy, dissent and criticism such as the USSR, Nazi Germany. Democracy, real democracy, seems to be under threat in many many countries where it has traditionally existed.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

Your link is rubbish.

 

In your link, she said "It's all about the Benjamins". She was 100% correct. 70 new Congress members who "think right" have been admitted and are as I write on all expenses paid tours of Israel (but they wont be visiting Palestinians in the West Bank villages to hear their side of the story!), and of course AIPAC and other PACS and individuals can buy influence in US politics. It's a totally venal system.

 

The other accusation in your link, Omar: "I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is OK for people to push for allegiance to a foreign country."
She was 100% correct again. Look at Trump's behavior in the OP for crying out loud.

 

She has said or done nothing anti Semitic at all. Where has she ever preached blind hatred of Jews simply because they are born Jewish? That's what anti Semitism really is and you demean that currency by crying wolf every time some criticizes the current Israeli government.

 

 

Try as you might whitewash her words, your rendition is not quite how they were accepted and understood. Even her own party distanced itself from her statements. She was rebuked and had to publish some fake apology/clarification.

 

Ilhan Omar and the Myth of Jewish Hypnosis

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/21/opinion/ilhan-omar-israel-jews.html

 

Ilhan Omar Apologizes for Statements Condemned as Anti-Semitic

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/11/us/politics/ilhan-omar-anti-semitism.html

 

House Foreign Affairs leader tells Omar to apologize for saying pro-Israel groups push foreign allegiance

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/01/politics/ilhan-omar-engel-statement/index.html

 

That you don't see an issue with her statements and views means very little, considering your posting history and agenda.

 

[dexterm]

7 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

How many previous members of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs have visited foreign countries after making extremely derogatory comments about the country and advocating boycott's and sanctions against that country?

 

As she is a Muslim, of Palestinian extraction, with a grandmother still living there; and known for strong anti Israeli sentiments, are we really expected to believe she will simply carry out her role and conduct unbiased oversight? Would she support Israeli MP's scrutinizing things in America, such as anti anti-semtism ?

Israel doesn't donate $billions annually to USA...seems to be a one street. 

US taxpayers need to know how their money is being used. That is one of Omar's jobs and the purpose of her visit.

[Sujo]

17 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Interesting.

 

Is it democratic for people elected to represent the interests of electors in one country to spend their efforts, time and tax payers money to fight issues in another country? 

 

These two women are seeking to promote their religion and in one's case her ethnicity in a foreign country by using their acquired status as elected officials of a powerful country.

 

So presumably they, and you, would be o k if Israeli members of parliament came to the USA and campaigned for opponents of these women and their party? Or perhaps Russian MP's came over and campaigned for Trump? Or Chinese MP's came over and campaigned against him and his making their one sided trade more difficult?

 

These days it seems "democracy" in the view of some, means that Muslims, blacks, Palestinians, illegal economic migrants and corrupt socialists must be allowed to do as they please and lecture everyone else on how they can behave.

 

If either of these women represented me as an elector, I'd be pretty pissed off. Is this one of their election "promises"?

Havent you heard of netanyahu invited to US to talk to the senate to spout his vitriol? You really dont know that happens?

[Sujo]

13 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

How many previous members of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs have visited foreign countries after making extremely derogatory comments about the country and advocating boycott's and sanctions against that country?

 

As she is a Muslim, of Palestinian extraction, with a grandmother still living there; and known for strong anti Israeli sentiments, are we really expected to believe she will simply carry out her role and conduct unbiased oversight? Would she support Israeli MP's scrutinizing things in America, such as anti anti-semtism ?

Yes, the republican held senate does exactly that inviting netanyahu to give a speach on the floor.

[JimmyTheMook]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

 

 

There are numerous constitutional and security checks and balances that could ensure Israel would always be a safe haven for Jews who are genuinely persecuted or simply want to live there for religious, cultural or family reasons, but could also allow Palestinians equal rights in their own land.

 

 

You're not that bright of an anti Semitic troll.

 

Palestine was offered plenty of land deals their corrupt leadership always refuses, instead they choose to commit terrorist acts against Israeli citizens

 

Learn the facts - check out how the Hamas leadership hordes 

the cash and live high on the Halal Hog.
 

You can't see past your blind hatred of Jewish people can you?

 

 

 

 

[Sujo]

4 minutes ago, JimmyTheMook said:

 

You're a not that bright of an anti Semitic troll.

 

Palestine was offered plenty of land deals their corrupt leadership always refuses, instead they choose to commit terrorist acts against Israeli citizens

 

Learn the facts.

 

 

 

 

Great. I will take half your house then offer half back, the other half will have my friends as squatters in it until u agree to the terms. If u dont agree i willmtake more and more aquatters will come and i will offer you less.

 

great deal.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

The usual obfuscation to avoid addressing the point.

 

I suggest you consult the BDS website for clarification.

 

Israel can have a two state or one state solution. Looks like with the help of Trump's cheerleading its headed for the latter. 

 

There are numerous constitutional and security checks and balances that could ensure Israel would always be a safe haven for Jews who are genuinely persecuted or simply want to live there for religious, cultural or family reasons, but could also allow Palestinians equal rights in their own land.

 

 

I went ahead and addressed all three of your bogus points. That you claim otherwise is counterfactual.

 

You can make whatever misleading claims about the BDS - it doesn't change the fact that it includes many views and variations - many not of the mild sort your attempt to present as the only one. Your own comments on BDS issues on past topics exceed the premise you now claim. I would also suggest that there are many BDS websites, rather than a single one, which sort of makes your "advice" hollow,

 

Whether Israel can have a "one state or a two state solution", and how Trump figures in this - got little to do with my comment, which was about views of one of them. A one-state solution is in essence one in which Israel ceases to exist as Israel.

 

That you claim that there are "numerous constitutional and security checks and balances" which could serve to make it all right, doesn't make it so. Other than waffling, you never seem able to tie your notions to anything related to ME reality.

 

 

[usviphotography]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

 

The foreign head of state initially accepted the visit to be carried out, regardless of how he felt about it. Things changed following WH/Trump pressure. Not quite what you're on about, but in a sense - worse.

I think you are assuming facts not in evidence. Israel generally does not allow supporters of BDS, which represents an existential threat to the existence of the Jewish State, entry in to the country. It seems they were willing to look the other way because these two were US Congressmen, but do you think Israel was happy about that? Do you think Bibi wanted these two parading around it the territories? Yes, it is possible Trump was just perusing "the shows" and saw the story and then, as he is won't to do, decided to Tweet his personal opinion about it. But it seems just as likely that Israel specifically requested that Trump provide them with "permission" to ban the two, which would be the total opposite of "pressure". "Pressure" in any case seems like the wrong word because it implies strong arming when I don't think anybody on either side of this debate thinks Israel actually wanted these two in their country to begin with. Trump either unilaterally gave Israel permission to do the thing they preferred to do anyway or he was asked behind the scenes to make that Tweet so that the heat for Israel's decision would fall on Trump rather than Israel. 

[Baerboxer]

7 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Israel doesn't donate $billions annually to USA...seems to be a one street. 

US taxpayers need to know how their money is being used. That is one of Omar's jobs and the purpose of her visit.

 

The US gives more money to Afghanistan and Iraq (2017 figures). Has she arranged oversight trips to those countries first?

 

Many African countries, including her own birth country Somalia, also receive substantial amounts of US Aid. Does she also plan oversight visits to these countries, given their unfortunate reputations for corruption and misspending of aid money?

 

Has she made any comments about any other  country receiving US Aid and/or planned any other oversight visits?

 

Or is she simply using her position on this committee and US Aid as an excuse to try and go to Israel for provocation and to further her own agenda?