Rolling r's in Thai?

[shootrrdave]

So I'm about 2 weeks into a Thai learning course.

 

LearnwithOliver.com

 

The example speakers are rolling every r in every word that has one.

 

2 questions...

 

Is this correct? 

 

And assuming it is what does a guy do that can't roll r's?

[SteveK]

I have heard Thai people roll their R's but very, very infrequently. They're more likely to switch the R to an L sound. I hear that at least once an hour.

 

But then when you think about the word for boat - ruua, it does have a half rolling kind of sound. Hard to explain. Certainly nothing compared to many European countries. If they're rolling them like a Spanish or Portuguese person would do, in my opinion that is not correct.

Edited August 16, 2019 by SteveK

[jastheace]

if you can't roll your 'r's then just loll them, works for many including thais. seems only Bangkok and buriram people can do it really well anyways

[jastheace]

2 minutes ago, SteveK said:

I have heard Thai people roll their R's but very, very infrequently. They're more likely to switch the R to an L sound. I hear that at least once an hour.

yeah, beat me to it

 

[MartinL]

I only ever hear rolled R's on the TV programmes and formal occasions - wedding, funeral speeches etc. Everyday speech - R replaced by L. 

[SteveK]

7 minutes ago, MartinL said:

I only ever hear rolled R's on the TV programmes and formal occasions - wedding, funeral speeches etc. Everyday speech - R replaced by L. 

I got scolded and corrected by a food vendor on Koh Phangan for saying mai pen lai - she insisted it was mai pen rai, I guess there are regional preferences for the R or L sound. I try and make a sound which is halfway between the two.

Edited August 16, 2019 by SteveK

[MartinL]

A little story that's always amused me.

 

Years ago, I bought my wife a bracelet. When I went overseas without her, she sent me an SMS saying "I wore your profit when I went out today". "What the hell's she talking about?" I asked myself. I called and asked her. "The profit you bought me ... ". A lightbulb came on!
 

I looked-up the Thai word for 'profit' - it's กำไร (gam Rai). The word for bracelet is กำไล (gam Lai). However, both are pronounced exactly the same in this neck of the woods - gam Lai.

 

It seems she'd asked a friend for the translation of gam Lai and her friend had chosen the wrong English word which my wife then used.

 

Gam Rai - Gam Lai. As confusing to me as glai (falling tone) = near and glai (medium tone) = far.

 

 

[tgeezer]

R does not involve the tongue so no Thais say r.  Always roll your ‘ร’ if you can. it is easy to learn to do but that does not guarantee that you will always say ร but when you don’t, at least you won’t be saying the English r but the authentic Tai ‘ล’. 

[uhuh]

"Standard" (as in received pronunciation) Thai as spoken in TV news has  l and r,

Both are not pronounced as in American English.

L is pronounced like in British "leg".

R is rolled, like Spanish r (not like Spanish rr - note the difference between "caro" and "carro").

 

The only people in Thailand who naturally roll their r are the Khmer (mostly in Buriram, Surin, Sisaket). Lao speaking people from Isarn pronounce r as l, so do Bangkokians.

Bangkokians omit r and l in consonant clusters anyway: "who" should be krai but becomes kai, "fish" should be pla but becomes pa.

 

School teachers all over the country desperately try to teach the rolling r. In vain,  of course. 

But if a Thai wants to show off her education she will roll every r. Unfortunately,  she has no idea where it's a

 r and where it should be l - because she cannot feel the difference.  So she will "overcorrectly" pronounce many l as r.

That's how you end up with the profit story.  They really have no idea,  what is l and what is r, it's all the same in their mother tongue, Isarn Lao.

 

 

[Yinn]

18 minutes ago, uhuh said:

 

But if a Thai wants to show off her education she will roll every r.

Not show off, just speak well/polite.

 

18 minutes ago, uhuh said:

 

Unfortunately,  she has no idea where it's a

 r and where it should be l - because she cannot feel the difference.  So she will "overcorrectly" pronounce many l as r.

I see your post many time before. You always correct. Explain it well. You clever. Sure.

 

But I disagree with that one.

Is easy, if ร then roll,

if ล don’t roll.

 

i am from south.

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, uhuh said:

That's how you end up with the profit story.  They really have no idea,  what is l and what is r, it's all the same in their mother tongue, Isarn Lao.

 

 

 

[timendres]

I had a Thai girl fall in love with me when I pronounced ผมรักคนไทย (pom rak kon thai - I love Thai people) rolling the r perfectly. She was quite impressed and insisted I spoke perfect Thai. Of course, my Thai is barely passable, but this girl loved hearing it. I work with Thai employees, and I have never heard any of them ever once roll an r. But it sounds phenomenal in Isaan songs. You should begin by learning to roll the r, then relax that with time as you become more comfortable with speaking Thai.

[Wongkitlo]

I understood for "law ling" their tongue is at the front of the mouth(hard pallette) and "raw Reua" the tongue is at the back (soft pallette) which is the same as English but they make an L sound each time. Japanese is the same. My sister in law speaks very politely and says "r" but the rest of the family will use "L".

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[canuckamuck]

I wouldn't worry about it. You usually only hear them doing it when they are being formal. I can do it, but it is a distraction when you are just trying yo be understood.

[villagefarang]

As a foreigner I prefer to err on the side of being polite, regardless of what might be common, so I always roll my r's.  Everyone I meet seems to appreciate the way I speak.  For me it is best to emulate the ideals of a culture, rather than what might pass as common.  Again, that is just my personal preference.????

[Tayaout]

The "R" sound like I understand it is not from the back of the throat like western language. Its more like a quick clapping of the thong on the upper part of the mouth. A little bit like some arab women singing sound. I'm still working on it! Most of the time a "L" sound is ok but it's not the correct educated "TV news" prononciation. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Tayaout

[Catoni]

You “trill” your tongue against the roof of your mouth just behind your top teeth. Just takes a bit of practice. 

   The Scots do the same thing when speaking “Scottish” English and/or the ancient Gaelic language. 

     Took me a little while, but I learned how to do it. I would say it’s more important to trill your r’s in some parts of Scotland than it is in Thailand, or other Asian countries that might use that r trilling. It’s called the Alveolar Trill or Rolled R. Same thing. 

     In upper class Thai society I think you will find it used more. The trilled r is actually proper pronunciation, but not really necessary unless you really want to have perfect “by the book” Thai pronunciation. 

But in regular speech on the street, lots of Thais sort of change it to an “L” sound.  Either way...is okay. 

[shootrrdave]

Thank you everyone for your comments. It is an interesting discussion.

 

A little background. As a child I required speech therapy due to hearing loss from ear infections as an infant. My family actually thought I was retarded because I didn't start speaking when other children started and rarely made much noise at all. Of course some people I know would say the same thing about me today...lol. To this day I still speak more slowly than the average person and still have the hearing issues. I am having quite a bit of trouble hearing the tones and may never completely get it but that can be another thread.

 

For the r's I don't believe I am physically capable of a true roll. I took singing lessons for 2 years as a teen from a "very" Italian lady. Drove her nuts because I couldn't do it. But I can handle the "l as r" for most of the words so I will work on that.

 

One word I'm having trouble with is kruu (teacher).  Can't flip that r at all. Any advice? Otherwise I'll just stick with the straight r sound. 

 

I know learning Thai is going to be a big challenge for me because of my hearing problems but I have recently contributed to the Thai gene pool so I am in it for the long haul. 

 

Thanks again for any comments and advice. 

[tgeezer]

Some combined-initial-consonants are impossible because sounds produced by throat mouth and lips have to be done in that order. Ca roo should be easy. Some people will claim that there is no ‘a’ but there must be. 

If the muscles on your tongue can not let the tongue vibrate then say ‘r’ it is a foreign accent, “ow nom roo plow” similar to the Thai “woo u lie some mil?” (Would you like some milk)   

[shootrrdave]

17 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

Some combined-initial-consonants are impossible because sounds produced by throat mouth and lips have to be done in that order. Ca roo should be easy. Some people will claim that there is no ‘a’ but there must be. 

If the muscles on your tongue can not let the tongue vibrate then say ‘r’ it is a foreign accent, “ow nom roo plow” similar to the Thai “woo u lie some mil?” (Would you like some milk)   

Hmm... adding the a does make it easier for me. Thank you. 

[EricTh]

Only Thai teachers and newscasters roll their R because that's considered 'perfect' Thai.

 

I used to think that every Thai people roll their R but normal Thai people on the street pronounce it as 'L'.

 

Or you can pronounce it as English 'r' which is closer. They will understand because most farang can't pronounce the tones right anyway.

Edited August 17, 2019 by EricTh

[EricTh]

6 hours ago, Wongkitlo said:

I understood for "law ling" their tongue is at the front of the mouth(hard pallette) and "raw Reua" the tongue is at the back (soft pallette) which is the same as English but they make an L sound each time. Japanese is the same. My sister in law speaks very politely and says "r" but the rest of the family will use "L".

 

No, Thai r is NOT the same as English r or Japanese r.

 

It's the same as Spanish r.

[Briggsy]

20 hours ago, shootrrdave said:

Is this correct?

Yes, check out Thai newsreaders. They do the same.

 

20 hours ago, shootrrdave said:

And assuming it is what does a guy do that can't roll r's?

Struggle.

Approximate.

Use an English 'r'.

Default to an 'l'.

Practise.

 

What do you do if say "Thammy the thnake"?

[DannyCarlton]

My wife is Issan and never rolls her "R"s. Always uses "L". Except, of course, if the "L" is at the end of a word then it changes to an "N". Sometimes "R" in the middle of a word becomes silent.

 

I remember when we first met, I asked her where she wanted to go that day. Her reply was "Sentan shopping". After further quizzing I realised she meant "Central Shopping Mall". Confusing.

 

I also disagree with the poster who said that "pla" becomes "pa". My wife and her friends say "ba".

 

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by DannyCarlton

[tgeezer]

I decided to google how to say Thai and came up with a site teaching English part of which explains the pronunciation of ‘r’ and the speaker makes a distinction between r as an initial consonant and r as a closing consonant. I have just realised that my initial r is no different from my closing r in English. He claims that the English r is the same as ร but without the trill, (incidentally he describes this as r ไม่กะดกลิ้นเพียงคลี่ลิ้นออกครั้งเดียว) .  I was wrong then, from now on when I speak English I shall have my tongue behind my gum, I must say that it is difficult to do without the trill. 

[Mavideol]

19 hours ago, Yinn said:

Not show off, just speak well/polite.

 

I see your post many time before. You always correct. Explain it well. You clever. Sure.

 

But I disagree with that one.

Is easy, if ร then roll,

if ล don’t roll.

 

i am from south.

 

 

 

 

you said you are from the south, the locations indicates Ranong written with R but heard (they call themselves polite & educated) people saying it with sounding like L thus the confusion

 

 

[uhuh]

1 hour ago, DannyCarlton said:

 

 

I also disagree with the poster who said that "pla" becomes "pa". My wife and her friends say "ba".

 

 

This is a problem of romanisation, it is between voiced b and voiceless, aspirated p. It is a voiceless, non-aspirated bilabial stop, like french or spanish p, like p in "Spain" as opposed to p in "pain"

 

Google "non aspirated p in english" for detailed explanations. 

[tgeezer]

On 8/16/2019 at 12:30 PM, SteveK said:

I have heard Thai people roll their R's but very, very infrequently. They're more likely to switch the R to an L sound. I hear that at least once an hour.

 

But then when you think about the word for boat - ruua, it does have a half rolling kind of sound. Hard to explain. Certainly nothing compared to many European countries. If they're rolling them like a Spanish or Portuguese person would do, in my opinion that is not correct.

I am seventy four years old and only now see why “Round the ragged rock the ragged rascal ran” I never took it in and say the regional west country r. 

Sara อื needs the tongue in the forward position just as does ร 

I suppose this is why I find รือ words good for practising ร. 

[alan grice]

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[ColeBOzbourne]

On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 2:49 PM, DannyCarlton said:

I also disagree with the poster who said that "pla" becomes "pa". My wife and her friends say "ba".

I was joking with some waitresses I know pretty well because instead of saying, 'Prik Naam Bplaa' they say, 'Pik Naam Pa'. They always looked confused when I used the first pronunciation. We went over it together written out in Thai and they admitted the first pronunciation is correct, but they like the second one better. At least now they understand and don't give me crazy looks.

[DannyCarlton]

2 minutes ago, ColeBOzbourne said:

I was joking with some waitresses I know pretty well because instead of saying, 'Prik Naam Bplaa' they say, 'Pik Naam Pa'. They always looked confused when I used the first pronunciation. We went over it together written out in Thai and they admitted the first pronunciation is correct, but they like the second one better. At least now they understand and don't give me crazy looks.

I pronounce it "baa" and so does every Thai I know.