My guide to online E-visa applications via London Thai Embassy (60-day SETV by post)

[Senior Player]

14 hours ago, The Maltese Falcon said:

Senior Player what about the printout of the visa application did you do  it?

Thanks

The only thing I needed to printout was the declaration and E-Appointment. There's no need to printout the application, which is why it's now all done online.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Senior Player

[peterpaintpot]

I agree with those that think that this form is unnecessarily complicated and my blood pressure was zooming whilst I struggled with it. 

 

I am now really stuck as I am unable to insert the j pegs onto page 3, despite managing to insert my picture onto the Profile form that allows you then to fill in the application form. But on page 3 of the application it appears to be impossible, despite the help of my son and his three teenage kids.

 

Please if you know how to do it let me know the method in some detail so I can try again, i have tried with Windows 10 so I am now at a loss and need help to progress, a list of potential pitfalls would be appreciated as well. I can't believe that I am the only one to have difficulty with this due to the impasse between Embassies and Immigration. I extended my last visa 12 times by reason of retirement - no problem, boy has the application for the Non-Immigration Type O A got complicated in the last 13 years.

 

Help will be much appreciated,

Thank you.

         

 

 

[Senior Player]

1 hour ago, peterpaintpot said:

I agree with those that think that this form is unnecessarily complicated and my blood pressure was zooming whilst I struggled with it. 

 

I am now really stuck as I am unable to insert the j pegs onto page 3, despite managing to insert my picture onto the Profile form that allows you then to fill in the application form. But on page 3 of the application it appears to be impossible, despite the help of my son and his three teenage kids.

 

Please if you know how to do it let me know the method in some detail so I can try again, i have tried with Windows 10 so I am now at a loss and need help to progress, a list of potential pitfalls would be appreciated as well. I can't believe that I am the only one to have difficulty with this due to the impasse between Embassies and Immigration. I extended my last visa 12 times by reason of retirement - no problem, boy has the application for the Non-Immigration Type O A got complicated in the last 13 years.

 

Help will be much appreciated,

Thank you

Hi @peterpaintpot I'm unsure exactly why you can't upload your JPGs to the site, as you've already managed to do this already on your profile page. Firstly, check that all your other images are in fact JPGs, as it's possible that they could've been saved as a PNG. Also, check to make sure that they don't exceed the 200KB file size. Using the file compressor and JPG converter link that I provided should ensure your original scanned images fit this requirement. 

https://www.imgonline.com.ua/eng/compress-image-size.php

 

Other than that, the method is exactly the same one that you've already used on your profile page and the same method I used on my own PC (Windows 10). It might be worth checking to make sure that all the files you want to upload are in the same place, so when you click on "Choose File" they're in the same folder on your PC. Remember, when you click on "Choose File" you are looking on your desktop for where you've stored your JPG files. Having them individually named will also make it easier identifying them for each upload. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Senior Player

[Doowat]

On 8/25/2019 at 2:54 PM, peterpaintpot said:

I agree with those that think that this form is unnecessarily complicated and my blood pressure was zooming whilst I struggled with it. 

 

I am now really stuck as I am unable to insert the j pegs onto page 3, despite managing to insert my picture onto the Profile form that allows you then to fill in the application form. But on page 3 of the application it appears to be impossible, despite the help of my son and his three teenage kids.

 

Please if you know how to do it let me know the method in some detail so I can try again, i have tried with Windows 10 so I am now at a loss and need help to progress, a list of potential pitfalls would be appreciated as well. I can't believe that I am the only one to have difficulty with this due to the impasse between Embassies and Immigration. I extended my last visa 12 times by reason of retirement - no problem, boy has the application for the Non-Immigration Type O A got complicated in the last 13 years.

 

Help will be much appreciated,

Thank you.

         

 

 

Have you been using Firefox by any chance? I had the same problem yesterday, plus it wouldn't accept my phone number in the acceptable format. Spent 4 hours, including using the in house message facility at the bottom of the form - which bounced back 'undeliverable'. However, today I tried filling in the form using internet explorer, and hey presto, it works fine!!

I soon found myself back to earth with a bump when arriving section 5, however. What on earth do they want by way of 'Proof of the permanent residence in the country where the application is submitted. Does anyone know? Surely my UK passport is sufficient to prove I am entitled to have residence in the UK. My attempt to ask the question via the in house messaging again bounced back! My bank statement and DBS certificate both include my address. HELP!!

[Senior Player]

8 minutes ago, Doowat said:

Have you been using Firefox by any chance? I had the same problem yesterday, plus it wouldn't accept my phone number in the acceptable format. Spent 4 hours, including using the in house message facility at the bottom of the form - which bounced back 'undeliverable'. However, today I tried filling in the form using internet explorer, and hey presto, it works fine!!

I soon found myself back to earth with a bump when arriving section 5, however. What on earth do they want by way of 'Proof of the permanent residence in the country where the application is submitted. Does anyone know? Surely my UK passport is sufficient to prove I am entitled to have residence in the UK. My attempt to ask the question via the in house messaging again bounced back! My bank statement and DBS certificate both include my address. HELP!!

That's probably a good tip about not using Firefox, as I used Microsoft Edge myself.

 

As I wrote on my first page: confirming proof of legal residence, I printed out my passport biodata page and wrote: “I confirm that I’m a British citizen” below it, then signed it afterwards. Of course I had to scan it once again for the upload on Step 5.

 

This was perfectly adequate for the London Thai Embassy and got me my SETV no problem.

[Doowat]

3 hours ago, Senior Player said:

That's probably a good tip about not using Firefox, as I used Microsoft Edge myself.

 

As I wrote on my first page: confirming proof of legal residence, I printed out my passport biodata page and wrote: “I confirm that I’m a British citizen” below it, then signed it afterwards. Of course I had to scan it once again for the upload on Step 5.

 

This was perfectly adequate for the London Thai Embassy and got me my SETV no problem.

Thanks for that. My brain a bit frazzled after the challenge of this process and didn't spot your advice on the proof of residence. Apologies for that. I inserted the text and signature on photoshop on the passport page which saved the hassle of printing and re scanning etc. However having made sure everything is the right size and format every time I attempt to 'confirm' at step 5 I get 'ACCESS DENIED - PLEASE TRY AGAIN LATER'. This is maddening. Do you know why it might be doing this - a problem with their server maybe? This process is driving me mad!!

[Doowat]

4 hours ago, Senior Player said:

That's probably a good tip about not using Firefox, as I used Microsoft Edge myself.

 

As I wrote on my first page: confirming proof of legal residence, I printed out my passport biodata page and wrote: “I confirm that I’m a British citizen” below it, then signed it afterwards. Of course I had to scan it once again for the upload on Step 5.

 

This was perfectly adequate for the London Thai Embassy and got me my SETV no problem.

Thanks for that. My brain a bit frazzled after the challenge of this process and didn't spot your advice on the proof of residence. Apologies for that. I inserted the text and signature on photoshop on the passport page which saved the hassle of printing and re scanning etc. However having made sure everything is the right size and format every time I attempt to 'confirm' at step 5 I get 'ACCESS DENIED - PLEASE TRY AGAIN LATER'. This is maddening. Do you know why it might be doing this - a problem with their server maybe? This process is driving me mad!!

 

I've since found Taninthai's 29 July post and it seems I had been logged out, but without the web site making this apparent! My application is now filed online. No mention of flight booking details etc. This process could not have been harder if they had tried. I regularly file electronic returns to HMRC for individuals and companies, and I thought that was tortuous. This E visa application is on another level though.

[Senior Player]

6 minutes ago, Doowat said:

Thanks for that. My brain a bit frazzled after the challenge of this process and didn't spot your advice on the proof of residence. Apologies for that. I inserted the text and signature on photoshop on the passport page which saved the hassle of printing and re scanning etc. However having made sure everything is the right size and format every time I attempt to 'confirm' at step 5 I get 'ACCESS DENIED - PLEASE TRY AGAIN LATER'. This is maddening. Do you know why it might be doing this - a problem with their server maybe? This process is driving me mad!!

 

I've since found Taninthai's 29 July post and it seems I had been logged out, but without the web site making this apparent! My application is now filed online. No mention of flight booking details etc. This process could not have been harder if they had tried. I regularly file electronic returns to HMRC for individuals and companies, and I thought that was tortuous. This E visa application is on another level though.

Yeah, the only thing I'm a little sceptical about is the way you've gone about Photoshopping your signature onto the bottom of the British confirmation document. You'll still need to print it off anyway to submit with your passport along with all your other uploaded original documents. Personally, I can tell a printed copy of a signature compared to an authentic one signed with an actual ballpoint pen. It all depends on how they feel about a copy 'n' paste signature as opposed to a genuine one. 

 

Glad you figured out that you'd been timed out on your login which was the reason for your Access Denied. I did the whole application in one sitting, but making sure all my documents were scanned and sized beforehand so I didn't encounter the same problem.

 

Be sure to follow the rest of my guide detailing the online tracking service and the messages. 

[patinchis]

Keep trying on line...I eventually completed the required online stuff,with copies of required docs...... monthly income of sufficient funds from work pension......went in to london embassy today stacked with all the required docs I had submitted online...plus a UK residency proof apart from passport,plus my Thai rental agreement .......counter lady browsed ,gave it all back aprt from passport and a ticket to collect next day


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[taninthai]

1 hour ago, patinchis said:

Keep trying on line...I eventually completed the required online stuff,with copies of required docs...... monthly income of sufficient funds from work pension......went in to london embassy today stacked with all the required docs I had submitted online...plus a UK residency proof apart from passport,plus my Thai rental agreement .......counter lady browsed ,gave it all back aprt from passport and a ticket to collect next day


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

It’s a good day then????It’s nice when you walk out of there the following day with passport in hand all the work has paid off ????????

[Exploring Thailand]

On 8/18/2019 at 2:58 PM, patinchis said:

I submitted an o-a online application last week successfully after weeks of attempts here in london ...

For the O-A was it necessary to provide flight details? As it's a long-stay visa, I'm not clear whether you would need those. Also, what did you put in the "reason for visit" field? Thanks.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Exploring Thailand
add another question

[Exploring Thailand]

On 8/16/2019 at 7:54 PM, Senior Player said:

However, there’s still one more thing to be done and that’s print-off the second page of the E-Appointment PDF

How does the appointment system work? I'm currently in Thailand on a retirement extension. I'm considering applying for an O-A instead of another retirement extension. I'd like to get as much as possible done here, before returning to the UK. Would it be possible to go through the whole process, then apply for the appointment to be a couple of weeks in the future?

[Senior Player]

13 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

How does the appointment system work? I'm currently in Thailand on a retirement extension. I'm considering applying for an O-A instead of another retirement extension. I'd like to get as much as possible done here, before returning to the UK. Would it be possible to go through the whole process, then apply for the appointment to be a couple of weeks in the future?

I didn't use the appointment system myself as I was sending my passport through the post. From what I gleaned from the appointment process: a calendar pops up which allows you to select your own appointment date, and alongside it the time. Though it's my understanding the appointment time is superfluous as you're still required to get a ticket and wait for your number to be called, meaning you need to get to the embassy at the earliest possible time if you don't want a long wait.

 

If you're returning to the UK and don't know what date you're returning on (or it's still a long way off) you can still save the application without having to submit it. When you're ready to submit and pay, you can do so when you're back in the UK and arrange for the appointment the next day (or whenever, within reason).

[Exploring Thailand]

4 minutes ago, Senior Player said:

f you're returning to the UK and don't know what date you're returning on (or it's still a long way off) you can still save the application without having to submit it. When you're ready to submit and pay, you can do so when you're back in the UK and arrange for the appointment the next day (or whenever, within reason).

Thanks, very helpful.

[VBF]

Posted as an "FYI", The following is a UK-based friend’s experience of applying for a SETV, using these instructions as a guide - please don't ask me questions  - as I say it's as he emailed it to me.

 

Equipment used

Laptop, digital camera, printer

 

Preparation

Registered on system before day of application

Set up folder on PC dedicated to application

Photographed and resized the documents before starting application, filed them in folder above

Documents: bank statement (online banking), 2 pages of passport (got new one 2 weeks ago), flight details from Emirates e-mail (booked ticket months ago), e-mail from pre-booked accommodation, photo of myself (see problems encountered below)

 

Application process

Filled in data as required. Loaded jpg file of my bio info on passport and photo of myself. System accepted passport photo but not the one of myself. No error messages given, tried second photo, failed again, finally worked with 3^rd photo. All files were less than 200kb.

I think stage 5 is where you have to upload seven items. The first two items are there automatically (passport and myself).  I uploaded the other five but the system said there was a problem. I then uploaded them one by one and hit the save button after each one, no further problems here.

Payment system appeared stuck but as I had read the thread I just went back to homepage and logged out. Left it 30 minutes and went back in and my documents were ready for printing.

I signed the barcode sheet in two places at the bottom.

The above took him about 90 minutes to do the application including all the faffing with photos and resizing!

Posted the documents and passport to the London Embassy 28-8-19, passport with SETV arrived back 31-8-19

[Apiwan2]

I'm having difficulty doing this with the amount of documents needed for NON O multi.

 

Thinking a 60 day tourist visa is better but the drop down is stuck on non immigrant now.

 

Not easy 

 

 

[UKresonant]

9 minutes ago, Apiwan2 said:

I'm having difficulty doing this with the amount of documents needed for NON O multi.

 

Thinking a 60 day tourist visa is better but the drop down is stuck on non immigrant now.

 

Not easy 

 

 

They said the were stopping the non-O ME for Retirement &  Marriage/family at London, is it still shown on the system? (There is the O-A needs quite a few docs, is that the one your were trying perhaps)

 

Dad's probably  going to mostly do TVs from now on with an occasional non-O single entry, three applications per year, instead of one per year, probably via the consulate (his non-O ME runs out when he returns to the UK this time). The e-visa system would be to complicated, certainly in the first instance in Nov, without him having assistance, for the file resize scans & uploads etc. 

[patinchis]

Further to my post re online london application for OA....I made my appt for some three weeks after submission,no probs, as I mentioned took in necessary docs, great friendly service , my wife ,British did also , and we both came out with an OA each and a smile from the staff!


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[steve187]

On 8/17/2019 at 4:20 AM, liddelljohn said:

I found the E Visa  application in UK hopeless,, I cant pre book flights due to my work status ,, even though i have a wife , kids and home in Thailand and house in UK

more than enough money    4 applications  failed cant get ME O visa  cant get SE O visa either ,,   im totally frustrated ,  As an offshore worker im going to have to do a visa in Vietnam or somewhere

23 years married ,,   does not count jack <deleted>

Suvarnabhumi immigration told me  back in March when i left thailand  if i dont arrive with a METV O visa I wont be allowed in ???? 

 

 

 

 

hull will issue a single entry non 'o' visa for being married,, have to pre-apply to Hull by email and they get approve fro London,, mine was approved next day.

[Apiwan2]

11 hours ago, UKresonant said:

They said the were stopping the non-O ME for Retirement &  Marriage/family at London, is it still shown on the system? (There is the O-A needs quite a few docs, is that the one your were trying perhaps)

 

Dad's probably  going to mostly do TVs from now on with an occasional non-O single entry, three applications per year, instead of one per year, probably via the consulate (his non-O ME runs out when he returns to the UK this time). The e-visa system would be to complicated, certainly in the first instance in Nov, without him having assistance, for the file resize scans & uploads etc. 

I've clicked on visiting family for more than 60 days second tab says non o the final tab says multi or single but keeps defaulting back to single then multi disappears.

 

I've got all my documents together will scan and resize when I get home tonight

 

 the resizing is quite simple use an online tool to resize to 500 kilobytes

 

Let you know how it goes 

 

[lamyai3]

7 hours ago, patinchis said:

Further to my post re online london application for OA....I made my appt for some three weeks after submission,no probs, as I mentioned took in necessary docs, great friendly service , my wife ,British did also , and we both came out with an OA each and a smile from the staff!

The current UK embassy staff are very good, I found them friendly and professional back in April. Back then they were apprehensive about the upcoming e-visa system when I asked them about it, so I guess they're making the best of a bad job. 

[patinchis]

They are excellent I found getting my OA last time and this current one last week!


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[liddelljohn]

They told me again yesterday I must have a Non O Multi entry and not an SE but they also say i cant have one from london  or any EU country any more , Im an offshore worker  they have told me to go to Saigon  first when I return to Thailand to see my wife  but thats a real hassle and expense to go Saigon first to get Non O Multi

 

They also told me that I wont get in at Suvarnabhum with ot a multi entry ,, no 30 day tourist or SETV  must be NON IMM O MULTI

[UKresonant]

1 hour ago, liddelljohn said:

They told me again yesterday I must have a Non O Multi entry and not an SE but they also say i cant have one from london  or any EU country any more , Im an offshore worker  they have told me to go to Saigon  first when I return to Thailand to see my wife  but thats a real hassle and expense to go Saigon first to get Non O Multi

 

They also told me that I wont get in at Suvarnabhum with ot a multi entry ,, no 30 day tourist or SETV  must be NON IMM O MULTI

It is all very strange isn't it! (and to some now unattractive, as someone said during a chat on the phone the other night, but of course they were not married, and easily can have the desire and option not to go back for 18 months....as their recent enthusiasm, appears to have halted)

In order to access online visa application, please go to https://thaievisa.go.th/Home

https://thaievisa.go.th/Home/TourismLeisure

"Tourist Visa

Ordinary passport holder who wishes to enter the Kingdom for the following purposes is subjected to be granted Tourist visa:
  1. Tourism
  2. Short visit to family living in Thailand........."

 

http://www.thaiembassy.org/london/en/services/7742/84451-Tourist-Visa.html

 

For visiting or staying with family resided in Thailand (less than 60 days)

• A current passport with validity not less than 6 months beyond the date of depature from Thailand and at least 2 blank pages. Applicants must fill in online visa application with their given name(s) and surname as appear in their passports.
• Printout of visa application form submitted online, with bar code
• Financial evidence e.g. bank statements, proof of earnings, sponsorship letter from a third party
• Personal details of a family in Thailand e.g. ID card, passport and the visa page or stay permit in Thailand 
• Proof of accommodation in Thailand e.g. hotel bookings, invitation letters from family/friends in Thailand
• Proof of relationship to a family in Thailand e.g. a copy of marriage certificate / birth certificate / certificate of adoption
• Proof of legal residence in the UK or Ireland

[tonbridgebrit]

Okay, I would like to thank Senior Player for putting up this post, and using time and effort to help us people with this application.

Now, bearing in mind it's not easy to actually get a Single Entry Tourist Visa, how about this ?

Okay, a British man, with a British passport, in Britain. He wants to go to Thailand for a 60 day holiday. Now, he buys plane ticket, and the return date on the plane ticket is day 59 of his holiday. Okay, on day 29 of his holiday, he's got a plane ticket to Malaysia, it's not that expensive. Go to Malaysia, and fly back to Thailand on day 30. Yes, this means a day trip in Malaysia. And once back in Thailand, stay in Thailand, and fly home to England on day 59.

All plane tickets (that's four plane tickets, London to Bangkok, Bangkok to Malaysia, Malaysia to Bangkok, and Bangkok to London) will be purchased before flying from London to Bangkok. And he will have all four tickets on him, when he flies out.

The holiday involves a day trip to Malaysia, stay in a hotel for one night in Malaysia. Malaysia is actually an okay place for a one day visit. Yes, try to enjoy the one day in Malaysia.


And doing it this way, no need to apply for a Single Entry Tourist Visa for Thailand. No need to pay for the SETV, no need to go through the aggro of having to apply. I really do wonder.

Edited September 5, 2019 by tonbridgebrit

[Senior Player]

Thank you @tonbridgebrit for your kind words. As your alternative and hypothetical plan shows, it is possible to find another way of not using an SETV and staying for 60-days on two visa exemptions. I suppose it would all depend on how many times you'd already used this method in the same calendar year as to whether the IO would allow you back into Thailand without any fuss. Also, you have to factor in the cost comparisons of doing either one. An SETV will only cost you just £30, plus the postal fee, depending on how you intend on submitting it, which could take the total cost up to approx. £46. The traveling to Malaysia would obviously cost significantly more than this as you'd have to pay for a hotel, additional flights and taxis. Then there's also the upheaval of interrupting your holiday midway to go to and from the airport as well as leaving the country, etc.

 

The last time I did a visa run using a similar method, I stayed in Malaysia for 5-days as I knew that a one-night stopover tends to arouse suspicion with immigration that you aren't really a tourist but someone trying to play the system. For every person that tells you that they didn't have a problem doing a one-nighter in Malaysia and returning the next day, they'll be another telling you that they did. It's one of those grey areas depending on the mood of the IO and entry border, and your own travel history.

 

When all is said and done, the online application for an SETV really isn't all that bad for the genuine 60-day tourist. The only time-consuming part is getting all your documents together and formatting them to 200KB. As I showed in my own guide on page 1, it's not necessary to book and pay for any of your flights beforehand, as a quoted price from Thai Airways is sufficient enough. The same really applies to accommodation, as you can book a hotel for 2-nights and then cancel it after you've got your visa without having to pay a single penny. The main objective is getting a SETV in your hands. Once you have it, you can decide yourself where and when you want to travel, so long as it's within the 3-month remit of the visa.

[Apiwan2]

Got visa back today only single entry now

So from a 1 year £150 multi I'm now going to have to make 4 applications which is £240

Maybe think about going to savannakhet

I've clicked on visiting family for more than 60 days second tab says non o the final tab says multi or single but keeps defaulting back to single then multi disappears.
 
I've got all my documents together will scan and resize when I get home tonight
 
 the resizing is quite simple use an online tool to resize to 500 kilobytes
 
Let you know how it goes 
 

Sent from my SM-G965F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Senior Player]

2 hours ago, Apiwan2 said:

Got visa back today only single entry now

So from a 1 year £150 multi I'm now going to have to make 4 applications which is £240

Maybe think about going to savannakhet.

 

Their online application has a disclaimer alongside the "Number of Entries" of "Single" or "Multi".

It says: Please note that you need to provide that you have a genuine reason to visit Thailand on a regular basis. The difference in fee will not be refunded, if the officer grants a single entry visa instead of the multiple entries visa you applied for. 

 

It's difficult to work out from your previous posts what you were originally applying for and whether you found it no longer possible to apply for a "multi" on the Number of Entries at Step 2 due to the website not allowing this, or whether it was down to something else. Personally, I'm a little confused. Also, was it the SETV or the METV that you were applying for, and what was your intended duration of stay? I also don't understand your £240 figure for 4 applications if it was just for a SETV. Were you intending to visit Thailand for 60-days but exit and come back 4 times during that same period, hence why you needed a multi? Or was it for one of the non-immigration Type O's that you were really after?

 

If it was for the latter, then there's another thread that details that it's no longer possible to get a non-O-multi-entry at the Thai Embassy in London. See below...

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1107363-non-o-multi-entry-no-longer-issued-at-royal-thai-embassy-in-london-new-financial-requirements-for-single-entry-tourist-visas-setv/

Edited September 6, 2019 by Senior Player

[Senior Player]

2 hours ago, Apiwan2 said:

Got visa back today only single entry now

So from a 1 year £150 multi I'm now going to have to make 4 applications which is £240

Maybe think about going to savannakhet.

Sorry @Apiwan2 but since my previous post I've had a further ponder on what you meant, and I think you might be referring to receiving a Single Entry Non-O Visa. If that is the case, Ubonjoe is giving advice on those with one of these on the link I provided above. Depending on your own circumstances, he does say: You can still get a single entry non-o visa and apply for an extension of stay based upon your spouses extension or OA visa entry. There are other examples given on the same thread, if this particular spouse situation isn't applicable to you. Have a thorough read of it as it might solve your own problem.

[Apiwan2]

I travel back and forth to thailand because of work in the UK .

April/may
July
October
XMAS

Hence the £240 fee (£60 each )+ postage etc

Although Xmas doesn't exceed 30 days I may just arrive on a visa at the airport however they always ask me " why no visa ? " when they couldn't find the NON O

I Applied for a NON O visa multi was there but then cancelled out to just single.

Now I know only single entry NON O is available now from UK.

Also my passport is going to fill up quickly with all these 1 page visas <deleted>

Sorry [mention=221307]Apiwan2[/mention] but since my previous post I've had a further ponder on what you meant, and I think you might be referring to receiving a Single Entry Non-O Visa. If that is the case, Ubonjoe is giving advice on those with one of these on the link I provided above. Depending on your own circumstances, he does say: You can still get a single entry non-o visa and apply for an extension of stay based upon your spouses extension or OA visa entry. There are other examples given on the same thread, if this particular spouse situation isn't applicable to you. Have a thorough read of it as it might solve your own problem.

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