Brexit: PM Johnson faces mounting legal, political, diplomatic challenges

[bannork]

The reality of a 'clean break.'

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/ivan-rogers-the-realities-of-a-no-deal-brexit/

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, bangrak said:

...And a 'blank' between 1974 and 1990, is it? After Edward Heath (1970/74), no Wilson (1974/76)(L), Callaghan (1976/79)(L), ...Thatcher (1979/90)(C), before John Major (1990/97)(C)?  

Who took us in and dug us in further? That's what I'm talking about.  

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Of course it does, only the delusional would think otherwise.

The EU makes the rules for joining and it makes the rules for leaving, just like any other organisation.

Rubbish. You still haven't read it properly have you? Article 50 does not give the EU specific right to dominate withdrawal negotiations. But May gave it to them anyway. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by nauseus
specific right to dominate

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, bangrak said:

You're not teaching the UK's 20th century History nor Political Science, even to recent immigrants having to assimilate, may I hope!?

That would be easier than getting anything through to you, I think.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, bangrak said:

Add to it that the UK, thanks to an 'engagement period' deal negotiated by ... (was it Wilson), the EEC allowed the UK to pay only half of its normal contribution to the EEC, and, after that, Thatcher when PM, refused to pay what should have become the UK's, full, contribution  blackmailing(!!!) the EEC, with success, alas, making that till today, the UK has, never ever, paid the contribution it should have had, still only half of it! But betraying the given word, even when written on paper and duly undersigned, seems not to be an exception with 'Perfidious Albion'...

P.S.: Oh, and, mind you, do you happen to remember which country was pushing sooo hard to have Greece as a member of the EU...? Must have still been an inheritance from 'romantic' Greek freedom fighter Lord Byron...

So, you are now saying that the UK should have been paying even more net contribution than Germany all the time? I wish that were true - it would make it much easier to get out of this mess - in fact we probably would have been long gone by now and not have to go through all this ch1t.

[billd766]

10 hours ago, stephenterry said:

Should that be the case, it opens up a whole load of possibilities - all of which would bring more disruption for the UK. Seems to me that the simplest - and probably the least damaging economic option - would be the passing of May's WAG, with a few concessions on the political statement. If the ERG tory rebels hadn't hi-jacked it, the UK would already have left the EU, and we would be getting on with life.

Yet if Teresa May and her remainer cohorts had done the job properly and listened to the Referendum result then the UK would have finished Brexit months ago.

 

It took her over 3 years to screw up Brexit and now the loser Remainers in parliament are getting upset once again because there is a 50/50 chance that Boris will do the job.

 

If he does then good for him and the country. If he fails then there is a good chance that many arch Remainers will be de-selected and booted out of parliament.

 

If there is a GE, do I think Jeremy Corbyn will win.

 

Yes I do think that and it will happen just 2 weeks after my state pension is restored to the parity with all the UK state pensioners.

[Jip99]

9 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Yet if Teresa May and her remainer cohorts had done the job properly and listened to the Referendum result then the UK would have finished Brexit months ago.

 

It took her over 3 years to screw up Brexit and now the loser Remainers in parliament are getting upset once again because there is a 50/50 chance that Boris will do the job.

 

If he does then good for him and the country. If he fails then there is a good chance that many arch Remainers will be de-selected and booted out of parliament.

 

If there is a GE, do I think Jeremy Corbyn will win.

 

Yes I do think that and it will happen just 2 weeks after my state pension is restored to the parity with all the UK state pensioners.

 

 

Frankly, I don't care who wins if the current outrage against democracy (the remoaners coup) succeeds.

 

 

The UK parliament is a shambles and it probably deserves to have Corbyn at it's forefront.

 

 

There are 17m+ disenfranchised voters who have seen democracy spat back in their faces......... that, at some point, is going to come back and bite somebody on the ar5e.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Jip99

[DannyCarlton]

1 hour ago, david555 said:

And depending if they really go blow up the E.U/U.K. citizens agreement …… all those  U.K. pensioners in the E.U. have to pay themselves or go U.K. for medical  treatment at U.K. costs, those E.U. who have working or stay permit in U.K. have their own insurances by their job 

I'd like to know if they will no longer be entitled to the annual pension rise as we aren't in Thailand.

Edited September 3, 2019 by DannyCarlton

[david555]

50 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

I'd like to know if they will no longer be entitled to the annual pension rise as we aren't in Thailand.

I guess that is a decision depending from the U.K. and depending country , as example now some  U.K. pensioners get pension rise  anyway (legally..) example in the Philipines but not in Thailand

My E.U. country gives me the normal pension rise never frozen, wherever I should live on condition regular doc.proof of life given  .Pensions can be different by country origin and destination  

I am lucky to be from that " bad undemocratic corrupt E.U. " ????

Edited September 3, 2019 by david555

[Stupooey]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

They had a vote too.  

Name one current twenty-year-old who was allowed to vote in the 2016 referendum. Or are you still pretending not to understand? Or perhaps you genuinely don't understand (but we keep being assured that Brexit supporters aren't stupid)….

[Nigel Garvie]

4 minutes ago, david555 said:

(How to see when Boris lies ……... "only to see  when his lips moves …"  )

 

The E.U. reply about Boris good negotiations lately..... non existing so far his good relations with E.U....….read

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/03/brussels-baffled-by-boris-johnsons-brexit-progress-claims

Brussels baffled by Boris Johnson's Brexit progress claims

PM says deal outline is nearly ready but EU says no backstop alternatives have been tabled

 

Brussels has responded with bafflement at Boris Johnson’s claims of progress in the Brexit talks, with EU officials warning that discussions are going nowhere.

The prime minister and his cabinet have insisted that the outlines of a deal are in the making and that attempts by MPs to rule out a no-deal exit will kill that positive momentum.

 

But officials said that more than two weeks after Johnson’s meeting with the German chancellor Angela Merkel, no alternatives to the backstop had been tabled and that there had instead been a renewed clash over Brussels’ need for an immediately legally operable solution for Ireland.

Precisely. Boris, JRM, and that slimy snake Raab, among others have all been on the media saying that any move by parliament to block No deal would weaken their hand in those wonderful negociations. This is a total fantasy,  how terminally brain dead would you have to be to believe that there has been progress, if there is nothing new on the table. How many ways do the EU have to say no before they accept it. 

How about honesty:- "We know that we are not going to get a new deal, we are just using it as an excuse, and in the vain hope that some dithering Tory rebels might be stupid enough to believe us."

[Stupooey]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

No they weren't. There was very little about the EEC in the Tory manifesto. They'd just had enough of Harold Wilson.

Manifestos tend to highlight specifically the differences between the parties. In 1970 there was little to choose between the Tory and Labour policies on Europe, both realised the UK needed to be in to halt the decline. Wilson had tried and failed, the electorate thought Heath could deliver.

[david555]

33m ago15:40

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/sep/03/commons-showdown-looms-in-battle-over-no-deal-brexit-live

 

This means that Boris Johnson has lost his majority.

 

 

Tory MP Phillip Lee defects to Lib Dems

The Tory Phillip Lee has just issued this statement about his defection to the Lib Dems.

Over 27 years ago I joined the Conservative & Unionist party led by Sir John Major. Since 2010 I have had the privilege of representing the Bracknell Constituency. The party I joined in 1992 is not the party I am leaving today.

This Conservative government is aggressively pursuing a damaging Brexit in unprincipled ways. It is putting lives and livelihoods at risk unnecessarily and it is wantonly endangering the integrity of the United Kingdom. More widely, it is undermining our country’s economy, democracy and role in the world. It is using political manipulation, bullying and lies. And it is doing these things in a deliberate and considered way.

That is why today I am joining Jo Swinson and the Liberal Democrats. I believe the Liberal Democrats are best placed to build the unifying and inspiring political force needed to heal our divisions, unleash our talents, equip us to take the opportunities and overcome the challenges that we face as a society - and leave our country and our world in a better place for the next generations.

This means that Boris Johnson has lost his majority.

Edited September 3, 2019 by david555

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, david555 said:

33m ago15:40

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/sep/03/commons-showdown-looms-in-battle-over-no-deal-brexit-live

 

This means that Boris Johnson has lost his majority.

 

 

Tory MP Phillip Lee defects to Lib Dems

The Tory Phillip Lee has just issued this statement about his defection to the Lib Dems.

Over 27 years ago I joined the Conservative & Unionist party led by Sir John Major. Since 2010 I have had the privilege of representing the Bracknell Constituency. The party I joined in 1992 is not the party I am leaving today.

This Conservative government is aggressively pursuing a damaging Brexit in unprincipled ways. It is putting lives and livelihoods at risk unnecessarily and it is wantonly endangering the integrity of the United Kingdom. More widely, it is undermining our country’s economy, democracy and role in the world. It is using political manipulation, bullying and lies. And it is doing these things in a deliberate and considered way.

That is why today I am joining Jo Swinson and the Liberal Democrats. I believe the Liberal Democrats are best placed to build the unifying and inspiring political force needed to heal our divisions, unleash our talents, equip us to take the opportunities and overcome the challenges that we face as a society - and leave our country and our world in a better place for the next generations.

This means that Boris Johnson has lost his majority.

Wow! Surely he has to call a GE now.

[david555]

25 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Wow! Surely he has to call a GE now.

Must wait , as now it is a game of strategy …., when , how , and after some more important legislation or similar is voted .

Edited September 3, 2019 by david555

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Stupooey said:

Name one current twenty-year-old who was allowed to vote in the 2016 referendum. Or are you still pretending not to understand? Or perhaps you genuinely don't understand (but we keep being assured that Brexit supporters aren't stupid)….

Ah  current! I see. So what's next? Proxy votes for foetuses?

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Stupooey said:

Manifestos tend to highlight specifically the differences between the parties. In 1970 there was little to choose between the Tory and Labour policies on Europe, both realised the UK needed to be in to halt the decline. Wilson had tried and failed, the electorate thought Heath could deliver.

Are you a good dancer?

[beautifulthailand99]

Johnson said he would Brexit by October 31st do or die. Can I take him on his word and if we don't leave then he will do the honourable thing and literally fall on his sword ? JRM speaking now in the debate sounding very narky. Good,very good. 

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by beautifulthailand99

[beautifulthailand99]

3 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Wow! Surely he has to call a GE now.

He can call it but Corbyn won't agree till Johnson's Brexit is postponed. ????????????????????????

[SheungWan]

The legal challengers and remoaners will all lose.. Boris has it in the bag.

Should be a cakewalk....

Sent from my SM-N935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[SheungWan]

I think you've missed the whole point of voting in the referendum to leave the EU. Boris is being democratic whilst the MPs that are trying to scupper and overturn the democratic will of the electorate are running around like possessed zombies.
So I'm sure you'll agree with me that if Boris is trying his best to deliver what was promised, he is far from undemocratic. Do not forget we have an highly biased speaker of the house who is a Europhile and will do anything to prevent Brexit happening, so when Boris is kicking a ball into a net manned by 12 goal keepers he needs every tool in his box to aid him.
I do understand that most remainers think if they personally do not agree with something, it is not democratic, they have a lot to learn.
I fully understand the principles of a sovereign parliament, but it doesn't appear to be working very well now does it, it needed someone like Boris to kickstart a useless house of commons.

Hard Brexiteers. Always looking for some hero to take them to the promised land of 1955 or threabouts.

Sent from my SM-N935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[SheungWan]

Do these opposers of BJs suspension of parliament understand what is being played ? They are undermining his negotiating strategy and aiding the EU panel . The EU must be rubbing their hands as the opposers are hindering good progress by BJ .  And what do the opposers have to say ? nothing constructive only another G/E or referendum .  Any judicial review will be in favour of BJ as facts are facts and supposition  and conjecture count for nothing .  As for the speaker J/C he is overstepping his brief and is completely biased which is certainly not democratic . Needs bringing down a peg or two and I think he will be surprised at the potency of BJs rhetoric .  Bring it on next week and sort out these disruptive pointless opposers who seem to thrive and enjoy causing mayhem . 

"Negotiating strategy" [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Sent from my SM-N935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[SheungWan]

Ah  current! I see. So what's next? Proxy votes for foetuses?

Now of course we are running on proxy votes for the dead grumpies who voted for Brexit.

Sent from my SM-N935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[DannyCarlton]

56 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

He can call it but Corbyn won't agree till Johnson's Brexit is postponed. ????????????????????????

Absolutely Corbyn has stated that he will not support a GE until after the no deal Brexit has been buried, which effectvely means after an extension has been granted and after Qctober 31st.

 

My main concern is that the likes of SNP and Lib Dems will go along with that as they're chomping at the bit for a GE.

[Basil B]

Boris gets his first big kicking... first of meany to come.

 

328-301 

 

He has already lost his majority... removing the whip from 20 odd MP's must be political suicide.

[beautifulthailand99]

YES YES YES

- no deal Brexit to the bin

- Corbyn refuses to give Johnson election until No Deal off the table

- pound up past 37

 

now read this

 

How it could all go wrong for Boris
During an election campaign, things can change quickly and radically

https://unherd.com/2019/09/how-it-could-all-go-wrong-for-boris/

 

The Rebel Alliance is on the March !

 

[beautifulthailand99]

2 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Absolutely Corbyn has stated that he will not support a GE until after the no deal Brexit has been buried, which effectvely means after an extension has been granted and after Qctober 31st.

 

My main concern is that the likes of SNP and Lib Dems will go along with that as they're chomping at the bit for a GE.

I win 2000 baht from malagateddy - cheers all round fellow rebels. We are on the way.......

[Basil B]

 

Anyone who watched the debate would have been blind not to notice that the Tory benches being very empty.

 

[Basil B]

Confirmed...

 

21 Tory MP's to lose the whip...

 

Just waiting for the "U"turn.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, bangrak said:

Add to it that the UK, thanks to an 'engagement period' deal negotiated by ... (was it Wilson), the EEC allowed the UK to pay only half of its normal contribution to the EEC, and, after that, Thatcher when PM, refused to pay what should have become the UK's, full, contribution  blackmailing(!!!) the EEC, with success, alas, making that till today, the UK has, never ever, paid the contribution it should have had, still only half of it! But betraying the given word, even when written on paper and duly undersigned, seems not to be an exception with 'Perfidious Albion'...

P.S.: Oh, and, mind you, do you happen to remember which country was pushing sooo hard to have Greece as a member of the EU...? Must have still been an inheritance from 'romantic' Greek freedom fighter Lord Byron...

Brexit logic, thinking you will save a hypothetical figure rather than what is paid.

A bit like my wife, comes back with a bag full of discounted stuff we don't need and says she saved a fortune.