Karaoke Singer Accuses Policeman Of Chopping Her Arm Off

[0Mix1up]

Aside from the punishment for the criminals.

What can be or will be done for this lady?

[bkkmadness]

Usually religion is just pacification for the poor. "Opium for the masses" as Mao famously said.

Karl Marx said it, and even then I think it's a misquote. And as far as I understand, it's almost always a quote used incorrectly on this board as well.

Edited March 24, 2007 by bkkmadness

[Toptrainer]

QUOTE(drummer @ 2007-03-24 03:30:25)

These guys ARE sick. But then, just the job description of "police officer" draws the very sort of person that likes to be in control of others. Worldwide. A lot of bouncers are bouncers just because they like the idea of being able to beat people up. Many police are the same way, only with guns. Rodney King, anyone? it happens EVERYWHERE. the only way to get around this is independent oversight. Citizens commission. An honest guy at the top might work, until the guy retires! The problem with succession is who gets to succeed!

A ridiculous and totally inaccurate statement that you make!!!!!!!

I agree with Drummer.

I worked in law enforcement and as private and bar security trust me "most" people in these fields of work are not far from the people they are hired to protect you from.

Many of the guys in my dept. would carry thier badges to the bar while they drank, they called it thier "get out of jail free card." A lot of the security guys in my crew and other crews had records for violent crimes.

I am happy to have left it all.

[Heng]

Most hi-so people aren't particularly religious, nor are most lo-so folks. And a precious few of them are accurate practitioners of their faith, whatever their faith may be!! Doesn't stop religion from having its effect....

If she was good person, not only would she not be a "Karaoke Singer", this would not have happened to her. Som nam na, as they say. Serves her right.

You're the first person I've heard, Thai or falang to 'som nam na' this gal, while discussing this incident.

I wasn't speaking from my own opint of view, of course!

As for locals who think that one's occupation is the result of one's karma, which incidentally I don't believe one bit... I prefer to go with natural selection on that one, you'll find folks of ALL classes which believe this, I'm not sure why there is a need to point a finger at those who happen to be better off.

I happen to know quite a bit about this subject: Natural selection has VERY VERY LITTLE to do with intelligence. How many Hi So folks do you know who are successful solely because of their family/resources? Most of 'em. Pres. Bush, for example, would be somewhere in Odessa, TX selling used cars if it weren't for his 'blue blood'.

The case for DNA influencing intelligence is thin at best. Where there is somewhat reliable evidence, the changes are minimal. a couple of IQ points at best. However, where someone goes to school is hugely important. What expctations that are placed on you are hugely important. Immigrant Africans are making, on average, higher income than whites in many areas. They came over with the expectation to succeed. African Americans often have the idea that someone is "keeping them down" and that is why they can't succeed. There is a lot of truth to that feeling - really - but its no different than what every immigrant group has faced. Just start telling a Pollack joke or Italian joke. They come from when they were the immigrants. The English took Irish (my ancestors) and Spanish and many other Europeans over to be slaves in sugarcane plantations at one time.

Another thing to consider... there is a lot of infidelity, historically, and not only have Hi-So men fathered many lo-so babies, but lo-so men have fathered hi-so babies. Its hardly a closed system. The rise and fall of families and groups is another.

The environmental factors in regards to th expression of intelligence... diet as you grw up, nd exposure to pollutants is another major factor. The propensity toward drug use and the general uneducated nature of lower classes on these and other issues is certainly related.

The nail in the coffin of eugenics, however, is that lower classes have more kids than higher classes. Natural selection is all about how many kids you have.

I think you are pretty close to grasping the hammer and perhaps might have some nails lying around somewhere there. I'd disagree in the main because you are talking about natural selection as applied to animals and assuming that I was using the same to refer to humans. Just as you mentioned it's not just genetics, but what each generation does with the nurture side of the equation (and all the environmental factors therein), and the sum of such interactions/management/transfer of knowledge across each successive generation = natural selection when applied to humans. GB Sr, GWB Jr., and probably a whole lot of those secret society S&B Yalies would also be good examples. So would a lot of the world's blue blooded business dynasties and royalty, whether famous or not. Tracking down bastard children and documenting their failures would be irrelevant. So would documenting the lack of intelligence of particular members of a "successful" genetic line, since we're talking about the sum result (ie. GWB Jr. might be an idiot, but the line of Bush's would still be a good example of natural selection in humans). Sheer numbers are also irrelevant, but would be accurate if we were to look at it from an animal point of view.... although given, history has shown us that sometimes sheer numbers can often overturn superior natural selection (French Revo, Russian Revo, etc.), although some may argue that those are examples of poorly managed natural selection.

All off topic though, so back to the LOS..... I still think the above is a better explanation than karma or a massive conspiracy to keep people "down," of why one might end up singing karaoke while being groped and harrassed in Saraburi instead of at Big Echo in Bangkok, living without a care in the world, certainly without any concern for one's personal safety. One group made better choices along the way, the sum result over a few, or maybe even thousands or millions of years, and perhaps was simply more fortunate (there's always that random element over the generations).

Edited March 24, 2007 by Heng

[Mai Krap]

I'm not even in the least surprised nor shocked by any of this. As a matter of fact this kind of thing goes on all the time just well under the radar of English speaking tourist and Expat groupies. Swords, Machetes, Enep, Edep, and farm tools are used to attack people here everyday and women are no exception. In most cases Its multiple attackers on one victim and rarely does anyone instigate a attack unless they somehow feel empowered by either being a member of the police or army or at least running around with some VIPs card in their wallet. After any fight wrong or guilt is more closely associated with who has the least connections rather than who actually committed a crime.

The same thing goes on in the United States, George Bush and his mafia are doing it on a global scale. As I type this I just wonder how many girls in Iraq are missing their arms as George continues to whisper "Trust Me" into the ears of the good but globally unaware American people? Yet they like the many victims of Thailand's VIPs and Mafias are just the faceless, nameless, creatures who suffer at the hands of the unjust elite. While some may consider this last comment off sides I feel it is important to mention since some of the very people who criticize Thailand for this latest drama feel they are above it all and so right in the world.

[drummer]

I think you are pretty close to grasping the hammer and perhaps might have some nails lying around somewhere there. I'd disagree in the main because you are talking about natural selection as applied to animals and assuming that I was using the same to refer to humans.

I could be wrong, but I was under the distinct impression that humans ARE animals

Just as you mentioned it's not just genetics, but what each generation does with the nurture side of the equation (and all the environmental factors therein), and the sum of such interactions/management/transfer of knowledge across each successive generation = natural selection when applied to humans.

Except that there is no transfer of knowledge across successive generations. Lamark, a contemporary of Darwin, had that idea, but it isn't true. Just doesn't work. If you bob a cats tail, the kittens will have fully grown tails, no matter how many generations you cut the tails off. Assuming this poor girl procreates, her progeny will all have their arms.

Natural selection pertains directly to genetics. It was conclusively shown that DNA is what carries the code for life a few decades ago. We might agree on a lot more if you switched terminology...

GB Sr, GWB Jr., and probably a whole lot of those secret society S&B Yalies would also be good examples. So would a lot of the world's blue blooded business dynasties and royalty, whether famous or not. Tracking down bastard children and documenting their failures would be irrelevant. So would documenting the lack of intelligence of particular members of a "successful" genetic line, since we're talking about the sum result (ie. GWB Jr. might be an idiot, but the line of Bush's would still be a good example of natural selection in humans). Sheer numbers are also irrelevant, but would be accurate if we were to look at it from an animal point of view.... although given, history has shown us that sometimes sheer numbers can often overturn superior natural selection (French Revo, Russian Revo, etc.), although some may argue that those are examples of poorly managed natural selection.

I would humbly suggest that the quantifiable facts of the case are not irrelevant at all... All of those things do directly pertain because they are quantifiable measures that one can use to test that hypothesis. IF upper classes had genetic superiority over lower classes, THEN those things would be affected. If they aren't, then the hypothesis needs adjusting. Science is not subjective. It is yes/no to the best of our collective ability.

Also, Natural Selection has NOTHING whatsoever to do with "superior/inferior'... merely what is mroe advantageous at the time. There are many switchbacks and dead ends all throughout evolutionary history.

"Natural Selection" IS the 'animal' point of view. Thats its definition. It has been clearly demonstrated (even by the religious right) to work that way, even in humans ... the animal way, no less. Humans are simply smarter animals.

Could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by 'natural selection'? I am not quite sure what you mean.

All off topic though, so back to the LOS..... I still think the above is a better explanation than karma or a massive conspiracy to keep people "down," of why one might end up singing karaoke while being groped and harrassed in Saraburi instead of at Big Echo in Bangkok, living without a care in the world, certainly without any concern for one's personal safety. One group made better choices along the way, the sum result over a few, or maybe even thousands or millions of years, and perhaps was simply more fortunate (there's always that random element over the generations).

Well, I'll have to disagree here. Her 'group' is not nearly so cohesive as you are suggesting. And certainly not in any way pertaining to genetics. Her status as a karaoke singer has for more to do with opportunity and education than anything biological. Even autistic people with the right opportunity can become wildly successful. Bill Clinton was raised in a house without functioning windows. He got to where he is by skill and determination. Bush got to where he is by being the son of a President, and the opportunites that affords.

Those opportunies are in no way genetic. They are aristocatic. Cultural. Coincidental.

[Mid]

I'm not even in the least surprised nor shocked by any of this. As a matter of fact this kind of thing goes on all the time just well under the radar of English speaking tourist and Expat groupies. Swords, Machetes, Enep, Edep, and farm tools are used to attack people here everyday and women are no exception. In most cases Its multiple attackers on one victim and rarely does anyone instigate a attack unless they somehow feel empowered by either being a member of the police or army or at least running around with some VIPs card in their wallet. After any fight wrong or guilt is more closely associated with who has the least connections rather than who actually committed a crime.

The same thing goes on in the United States, George Bush and his mafia are doing it on a global scale. As I type this I just wonder how many girls in Iraq are missing their arms as George continues to whisper "Trust Me" into the ears of the good but globally unaware American people? Yet they like the many victims of Thailand's VIPs and Mafias are just the faceless, nameless, creatures who suffer at the hands of the unjust elite. While some may consider this last comment off sides I feel it is important to mention since some of the very people who criticize Thailand for this latest drama feel they are above it all and so right in the world.

Give IT A BREAK ......................

how in the hel_l can you work GWB in to this

[Tywais]

Give IT A BREAK ......................

how in the hel_l can you work GWB in to this

Agreed, please keep it on topic people.

[OneeyedJohn]

First off, can those that read THAI keep on top of this story, by reading

the Thai newspapers and reporting here.

Attempted murder would seem to be an appropiate charge.

Now I shudder everytime someone passes me on a faster moving bike, what

protection is there?

This girl has guts and I hope for the best for her.

[drummer]

This girl is seriously brave. No joke! She is risking quite a lot by doing what she is doing.

The 24-year-old Supansa Wichanand, with her right arm amputated and broken leg in a cast, arrived at the Royal Thai Police office on Wednesday to hand a letter to Pol Gen Seripisuth. Her petition asked the national police chief to give her a fair hearing and justice.

As King Ramkhamhaeng in days of old... (only there is no bell anymore)

[drummer]

Give IT A BREAK ......................

how in the hel_l can you work GWB in to this

In all fairness, GWB had been discussed in this thread already as an example of someone outside of Thailand that (a) is de facto aristocracy, and ( gets away with what he has largely due to the benefits and opportunities afforded him by his position.

This relates in how the girl is being treated, how the police in question are being treated, whether or not this is a situation unique to Thailand, as well as how the Thai public at large is reacting to this unfortunate situation.

[Mid]

[Heng]

I think you are pretty close to grasping the hammer and perhaps might have some nails lying around somewhere there. I'd disagree in the main because you are talking about natural selection as applied to animals and assuming that I was using the same to refer to humans.

I could be wrong, but I was under the distinct impression that humans ARE animals

Just as you mentioned it's not just genetics, but what each generation does with the nurture side of the equation (and all the environmental factors therein), and the sum of such interactions/management/transfer of knowledge across each successive generation = natural selection when applied to humans.

Except that there is no transfer of knowledge across successive generations. Lamark, a contemporary of Darwin, had that idea, but it isn't true. Just doesn't work. If you bob a cats tail, the kittens will have fully grown tails, no matter how many generations you cut the tails off. Assuming this poor girl procreates, her progeny will all have their arms.

Natural selection pertains directly to genetics. It was conclusively shown that DNA is what carries the code for life a few decades ago. We might agree on a lot more if you switched terminology...

GB Sr, GWB Jr., and probably a whole lot of those secret society S&B Yalies would also be good examples. So would a lot of the world's blue blooded business dynasties and royalty, whether famous or not. Tracking down bastard children and documenting their failures would be irrelevant. So would documenting the lack of intelligence of particular members of a "successful" genetic line, since we're talking about the sum result (ie. GWB Jr. might be an idiot, but the line of Bush's would still be a good example of natural selection in humans). Sheer numbers are also irrelevant, but would be accurate if we were to look at it from an animal point of view.... although given, history has shown us that sometimes sheer numbers can often overturn superior natural selection (French Revo, Russian Revo, etc.), although some may argue that those are examples of poorly managed natural selection.

I would humbly suggest that the quantifiable facts of the case are not irrelevant at all... All of those things do directly pertain because they are quantifiable measures that one can use to test that hypothesis. IF upper classes had genetic superiority over lower classes, THEN those things would be affected. If they aren't, then the hypothesis needs adjusting. Science is not subjective. It is yes/no to the best of our collective ability.

Also, Natural Selection has NOTHING whatsoever to do with "superior/inferior'... merely what is mroe advantageous at the time. There are many switchbacks and dead ends all throughout evolutionary history.

"Natural Selection" IS the 'animal' point of view. Thats its definition. It has been clearly demonstrated (even by the religious right) to work that way, even in humans ... the animal way, no less. Humans are simply smarter animals.

Could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by 'natural selection'? I am not quite sure what you mean.

All off topic though, so back to the LOS..... I still think the above is a better explanation than karma or a massive conspiracy to keep people "down," of why one might end up singing karaoke while being groped and harrassed in Saraburi instead of at Big Echo in Bangkok, living without a care in the world, certainly without any concern for one's personal safety. One group made better choices along the way, the sum result over a few, or maybe even thousands or millions of years, and perhaps was simply more fortunate (there's always that random element over the generations).

Well, I'll have to disagree here. Her 'group' is not nearly so cohesive as you are suggesting. And certainly not in any way pertaining to genetics. Her status as a karaoke singer has for more to do with opportunity and education than anything biological. Even autistic people with the right opportunity can become wildly successful. Bill Clinton was raised in a house without functioning windows. He got to where he is by skill and determination. Bush got to where he is by being the son of a President, and the opportunites that affords.

Those opportunies are in no way genetic. They are aristocatic. Cultural. Coincidental.

Semantics aside, pm on the way shortly, Drummer.

[Mid]

Semantics aside, pm on the way shortly, Drummer.

Thanxs Guys , really want to keep this thread on the narrow topic and see if we can follow this to a conclusion .

With this in mind , I second the call for any extra info to be posted and also the call to forward the story to who ever ...........

respect

mid

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, Heng's bizarre dynastic Lamarckian rants just go to show that science education is hardly in a much better state in Texas than it is in Thailand- but we're getting way off the topic with that- back to the story, please, folks...

[Mai Krap]

I'm not even in the least surprised nor shocked by any of this. As a matter of fact this kind of thing goes on all the time just well under the radar of English speaking tourist and Expat groupies. Swords, Machetes, Enep, Edep, and farm tools are used to attack people here everyday and women are no exception. In most cases Its multiple attackers on one victim and rarely does anyone instigate a attack unless they somehow feel empowered by either being a member of the police or army or at least running around with some VIPs card in their wallet. After any fight wrong or guilt is more closely associated with who has the least connections rather than who actually committed a crime.

The same thing goes on in the United States, George Bush and his mafia are doing it on a global scale. As I type this I just wonder how many girls in Iraq are missing their arms as George continues to whisper "Trust Me" into the ears of the good but globally unaware American people? Yet they like the many victims of Thailand's VIPs and Mafias are just the faceless, nameless, creatures who suffer at the hands of the unjust elite. While some may consider this last comment off sides I feel it is important to mention since some of the very people who criticize Thailand for this latest drama feel they are above it all and so right in the world.

Give IT A BREAK ......................

how in the hel_l can you work GWB in to this

Well Sir, These two subjects fit on the same plate as well as Ice Cream and Apple Pie!

[Mid]

Semantics aside, pm on the way shortly, Drummer.

Thanxs Guys , really want to keep this thread on the narrow topic and see if we can follow this to a conclusion .

With this in mind , I second the call for any extra info to be posted and also the call to forward the story to who ever ...........

respect

mid

[Tywais]

Well Sir, These two subjects fit on the same plate as well as Ice Cream and Apple Pie!

One more off topic remark and you will be given some time to re-think things.

[DragonQuest]

can i get a picture of the injury?

[Mai Krap]

Give IT A BREAK ......................

how in the hel_l can you work GWB in to this

In all fairness, GWB had been discussed in this thread already as an example of someone outside of Thailand that (a) is de facto aristocracy, and ( gets away with what he has largely due to the benefits and opportunities afforded him by his position.

This relates in how the girl is being treated, how the police in question are being treated, whether or not this is a situation unique to Thailand, as well as how the Thai public at large is reacting to this unfortunate situation.

Well put drummer. Some seem to be confusing the issues. The story is not about the girl at all but about society, culture, privilege, both justice and injustice. While I feel for this victim in this conflict I see many victims within many conflicts and feel for all of them. It is amazing the way some choose to paint their own devils as being cloaked in white robes and bearing velvet crosses while devils other than their own they have no problem identifying.

[Mid]

Policeman suspended over amputation

According to Suphansa, Nirut and three friends were miffed after she refused to sit with them. They allegedly followed her after she left the karaoke bar and one of them severed her right arm with a knife.

dpa

[jasreeve17]

Well, Heng's bizarre dynastic Lamarckian rants just go to show that science education is hardly in a much better state in Texas than it is in Thailand- but we're getting way off the topic with that- back to the story, please, folks...

After spending some time checking the big words I have to agree 100% with my least favourite poster / moderator.

Heng, what are you on? I hope in a few years you will develope more informed opinions.

This case is both a specific case, which is awful and justice needs to be done. Poor young lady.

- I hope that pathetic animal feels the full force of the law.

Also, it's a snapshot of society, where justice needs to be seen to be done.

I feel slaughtered and drained by the apathy of the Thais I've talked with on this subject. Poor young lady, she is on a par (at a minimum) with any hi-so, or any other Thai I have ever met. Indeed, she has shown a braveness that I've never seen from the hi-so Thais that I work with on a daily basis.

- These parasites have the ability to change their society for the benefit of every individual, but instead they choose to line their pockets.

Jason

[drummer]

Well, Heng's bizarre dynastic Lamarckian rants just go to show that science education is hardly in a much better state in Texas than it is in Thailand- but we're getting way off the topic with that- back to the story, please, folks...

In defense of Heng -

First, I went to school in Texas as well (Trinity University in San Antonio) Depends on where you go, though. Some places certainly focus on religion over reason.

Second, he has been mis-using the term "natural selection" to mean

Terminology aside, I'll continue to refer to it as natural selection or whatever term you'd like to label the phenomena where the strong survive and prosper and the weak tend to survive but suffer over successive generations.

and also

I'm not talking about transfer of knowledge through genetics. I'm talking about transfer of knowledge through communication and legacy. Transfer of assets is also a significant factor.

Its not as 'out there' as all that ... it just doesn't take into account genetic research. Its hardly uncommon for someone to misunderstand scientific research. Just read up on the thread about the HIV drugs...

Lamarkianism makes perfect sense if you don't know the research, and even today some researchers try to dredge up the remnants to make something out of it. Incidentally, this does work in bacteria, who tranfer DNA to each other in plasmids. But thats REALLY starting to get off topic

Overall, I'm thinking that this tangent is useful in understanding the issue at hand, though. The ways that peolpe assign blame and the ultimate reasons for what happens goes a long way in terms of affecting the way people react to events - AND this is an issue that has MAJOR east/west differences.

[deon]

Poor girl, how anyone can do this i dont know .I hope that pig gets life inside ,or one good kicking ,from the rest of the cons inside.

Its the least he should get for what he has done .Its sick and sad .After seeing that pic of that poor girl i am upset now .How anyman could do that i just dont know ,just like those two poor young russian girls in Pattaya .ps sorry if my rant offends anyone .

Edited March 25, 2007 by deon

[drummer]

Sick is the right word. Those guys have problems.

[brahmburgers]

I noticed NO coverage of this very important story in either the Nation's nor the BKK Post's online versions this Sunday.

For her right arm to get severed, it seems to me the butcher would have had to be left-handed. Go figure, two moving motorbikes, the guy is riding pillion - unless he grabbed her right arm with his left and twisted his body around to hack with his right hand.

The girl should be given a medal for her bravery (I jest not). Is there a way to contact her? I'd like to send her a gift package.

How is the Thai public taking this story? I think a gargantuan fine is in order for the police station that went along with the false report of her having 'an accident' ...as mentioned in my letter to the Nation on Saturday: 60 million baht fine might get some police captains' attention - and get them to think twice before conducting 'business as usual' (graft, lies, pay-offs, laziness) - for subsequent times.

[Heng]

Well, Heng's bizarre dynastic Lamarckian rants just go to show that science education is hardly in a much better state in Texas than it is in Thailand- but we're getting way off the topic with that- back to the story, please, folks...

You're truly a scientist, Steven. And for the record, I'm not talking about Lamarck or Darwin per se. It's the nurture side as well. Legal inheritance, knowledge transfer through communication + genetic inheritance (although given, sometimes the latter only provides the successive generation with the same last name).

Edited March 25, 2007 by Heng

[Heng]

Heng, what are you on? I hope in a few years you will develope more informed opinions.

Also, it's a snapshot of society, where justice needs to be seen to be done.

I feel slaughtered and drained by the apathy of the Thais I've talked with on this subject. Poor young lady, she is on a par (at a minimum) with any hi-so, or any other Thai I have ever met.

Jason

At the moment, tea. I hope you never lose hope. At least you are keeping your thinking positive.

As for apathy, you'll find it on both Boardwalk and Baltic Avenue.

[jasreeve17]

Heng, what are you on? I hope in a few years you will develope more informed opinions.

Also, it's a snapshot of society, where justice needs to be seen to be done.

I feel slaughtered and drained by the apathy of the Thais I've talked with on this subject. Poor young lady, she is on a par (at a minimum) with any hi-so, or any other Thai I have ever met.

Jason

At the moment, tea. I hope you never lose hope. At least you are keeping your thinking positive.

As for apathy, you'll find it on both Boardwalk and Baltic Avenue.

The apathy shown by yourself, and Thai society is indicative of a significant problem.

I've seen it written several times before to you:-

I studied my degree in my home country, as did 99% of British / American / French / German people on this forum. Consider why you went abroad to get "educated".

Think about it objectively. Then link it to this subject, and that poor young lady. It's not hard to find some fundamental problems, one of which is apathy.

Your parents sent you to the US because they wanted better for you, try to do so.

[ThaiFelix]

All this rubbish aside - is there anything that can be done to make the girl's life easier?

I agree. Maybe we should be doing something for this girl instead of sitting back in our comfortable chairs just talking about it. Maybe it would be a good example coming from the farang population? Show the locals that we are not all p....heads abusing their women.

I challenge Thaivisa to set up some sort of fund/account that we can contribute to in order to bring this girl some sort of relief from the purgatory she is in!!

I'll start with 1000 baht. Come on Thaivisa..and what about you others? Please, show your compassion. She could have been your daughter.