Weird electric gate problem

[Chazar]

Recently had some sort of  overvoltage issue where it  seems lightning struck the "Pea's"  cables "somewhere" around here ( could be 1-2-3-4km away) and then spread throughout the local wiring network into our land .

This  happened whilst I was in the Uk  and  it has  blown 3  elcbs 17 leds  lights around the land etc all been replaced now

The gate is strange, it  will open and close but  near the end of its  run opening or  closing it will stutter and fall short of closing or  opening 100% it cant make its  mind up so stop/starts then shuts  off completely thinking  its at the end of its  run

I have a complete spare gate  opener so I swapped a  few  parts over to see if anything had got damaged.

Before swapping out the old one ( 3  years) I first disconnected the two IR sensors that the gate uses if it closes on for example your car by mistake to rule these  out.

Made  no difference still stuttering.

Swapped  out the entire unit.............no difference  still stuttering, does it maybe 2 -3  times a  day, rest of the time works  fine.

Disengaging the  gears the gate  runs freely with no stiffness anywhere.

I even swapped  from one circuit  breaker to an empty one in case it had damaged  that, same problem all thats left is the two main breakers  boxes which im going to check as below.

As  far as I can tell  both motors and all other parts of it work fine as the same fault  appears on the new as the old  one. There are force and softness adjustments but this make  no difference to it.

The  supply electric is separate from the main  house thru another meter so house and gate are  on totally separate electric  meters. Am wondering if one of the circuit breakers is faulty or  not, plan to run a  cable from y own house electric  supply to the gate to  narrow down if the fault is somewhere in the cables breaker box of the  supply for the gate. All is earthed ok inc rods  into the ground

Baffled.

 

[tjo o tjim]

Try bypassing the wiring for the sensors or re-routing. You may have some insulation damage and low ground impedance. 

[Crossy]

Could be damp/ants in the limit switches (or iffy switches).

 

Does your motor have an encoder? Our last lightning strike killed the (hall-effect) encoders in both our motors.

 

Any error codes showing on the controller?

[Chazar]

53 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Could be damp/ants in the limit switches (or iffy switches).

 

Does your motor have an encoder? Our last lightning strike killed the (hall-effect) encoders in both our motors.

 

Any error codes showing on the controller?

Found the problem encoders  all ok in fact  the whole  opener is  fine, I swapped  out the entire  lot and still had  the fault..........I bypassed  the original supply just  and fed it from my own house ( which has its  own separate  meter) and thats stopped it doing the occasional stuttering so have made  headway, now Im going to check the cabling from the second meter up to the breaker  boxes  because whilst I was  away an "electrician" came and " fixed" the two blown elcbs............now it seems  something is amiss but at least I know it aint anything to do with the gate  opener in itself. All switches are  fine all IR sensors are  fine I always buy a complete second set of anything I buy here for spares  for later when they are unobtainable.

All cables are  NYY and  also inside hdpe trunking, no joints for max protection. Faults  is  going to be in  the 2 breaker  boxes I  guess where someone has recently "fiddled"

Will work my way thru all connections and check all the breakers, seems  to  pull a  certain amount of current then kind of expire, the only other  thing running of  that particular box  of breakers are some lights around the land and the staffs  house which has almost zero consumption  in fact they struggle to spend 400 baht a month no HEAVY  load  items like the gate etc on start up.

The  overvoltage blew 17 leds lights around  the land and 3 elcbs, first time its ever happened  here, am fitting some over voltage breakers  now  just ordered  them. It Only affected one of the phases out in the road ( single phase inside the land) and each meter runs of a  different phase otherwise both would have gone phut.

Been down to the PEA  who were very helpful and have been out and added some extra surge protectors near my  supply along the road, they knew what had  happened.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Chazar

[Chazar]

2 hours ago, tjo o tjim said:

Try bypassing the wiring for the sensors or re-routing. You may have some insulation damage and low ground impedance. 

First thing I did was  disconnect the 2  IR safety sensors, made  no difference. All my cables are in hdpe trunking.

[Crossy]

14 minutes ago, Chazar said:

I bypassed  the original supply just  and fed it from my own house ( which has its  own separate  meter) and thats stopped it doing the occasional stuttering

 

Check the wiring for loose/corroded connections, hunt down and fix any taped joints.

 

Feed your existing wiring with a plug from the same circuit you just used to show it's not the opener itself.

 

You are getting there, apply logic and the "half-split" method and you'll get to the solution.

 

[Chazar]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

any taped joints.

Dont  have any never  use them always go in one run to anything as joints  may always end up as a potential problem, the only  joints  will be in the breaker  boxes into the breakers. Ill root  away at it, get there in the end but as someone has  had  a fiddle already  Ill have to check what theyve  done as  well.

Thanks to all.

Ill disconnect the first feed  from the meter and   do what you mentioned to check that wiring.

[fredob43]

One of the worse things here is to have things earthed into the ground. I know that most wont agree but I have known several peeps that have earthed thing with those rods into the ground, They are fine until there's a lightening strike and the whole lot will go T/ts up. 

 

 Last one a few weeks ago the power from L/strike burnt out the shower unit and all the wires right back to the main box. Had to put a new ceiling in the shower room, then rewire the lot and repaint the shower room + some other bit's. He was lucky he didn't have a big house fire.

Edited October 10, 2019 by fredob43

[Crossy]

4 hours ago, fredob43 said:

One of the worse things here is to have things earthed into the ground. I know that most wont agree but I have known several peeps that have earthed thing with those rods into the ground, They are fine until there's a lightening strike and the whole lot will go T/ts up. 

 

So you don't have grounded power systems in your home country??

 

The danger of stuff getting fried by a lightning strike (which shouldn't be increased by using a ground anyway) is significantly less than the danger of dying due to an ungrounded Class-1 appliance going faulty.

 

But of course, it is entirely up to you.

 

[fredob43]

9 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

So you don't have grounded power systems in your home country??

 

The danger of stuff getting fried by a lightning strike (which shouldn't be increased by using a ground anyway) is significantly less than the danger of dying due to an ungrounded Class-1 appliance going faulty.

 

But of course, it is entirely up to you.

 

I'm from the UK and we have earth wires on everything. Nothing is grounded like here. Yes I have some things grounded here my Comp: for one, but if we have any bad weather I unplug the bits just in case.

 

Have seen to many peeps problems with fried wires and other electrical things messed up due to the rod in the ground system getting hit by lightening, so I do tend to be a bit sceptical.  

[Crossy]

9 minutes ago, fredob43 said:

I'm from the UK and we have earth wires on everything. Nothing is grounded like here.

 

Really? How are things grounded in the UK?

 

[fredob43]

39 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Really? How are things grounded in the UK?

 

We have 3 wires to every point in the houses, a Live, Negative, and Earth, and to every socket and electrical fixture, everything goes back to the main supplier through underground trunking. So it cant be hit by lightening.

 

Mind you saying that in some remote places Scotland and the likes they can have problems as they have all their systems on polls bit like here. Even then the earth wires will normally go through pipes underground or on top of the polls.

 

Weather can be a bit of a problem. Snow and high winds being the worst. It's very rare that anything has problems with lightning. You might get the odd wooden poll struck but that is soon sorted.

 

N/B not one house in the UK has an earth grounding rod. The electrical company wouldn't pass it fit for use.

Edited October 11, 2019 by fredob43

[sometimewoodworker]

57 minutes ago, fredob43 said:

 

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

 

Really? How are things grounded in the UK?

 

We have 3 wires to every point in the houses, a Live, Negative, and Earth, and to every socket and electrical fixture, everything goes back to the main supplier through underground trunking. So it cant be hit by lightening.

 

Mind you saying that in some remote places Scotland and the likes they can have problems as they have all their systems on polls bit like here. Even then the earth wires will normally go through pipes underground or on top of the polls.

 

Weather can be a bit of a problem. Snow and high winds being the worst. It's very rare that anything has problems with lightning. You might get the odd wooden poll struck but that is soon sorted.

 

@Crossy you have been told! Clearly BS-7671 is incorrect and any electriction who is using it is in error. Specifically Chapter 54 Earthing Arrangements and Protective Conductors.

 

Also the fact that all metal pipe work that comes into a building is electricaly bonded to earth within 600mm of entry must be mistaken.

 

There can be no TT supplies or PME systems either.

 

i missed 

BS 7430:2011 - Protective earthing of

electrical installations  which must also be in error. ???? 

Edited October 11, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[Crossy]

@sometimewoodworker it's BS7671 (IEE Regulations).

 

In reality, the reason we see more damage of the "fried wiring" type here in Thailand is simply that there's a LOT more lightning in Thailand. See the lightning map below. 

 

 

Of course, this is not helped by the fact that Thailand also has masses more of its LV distribution on aerial cables compared to the UK where the majority, certainly in urban areas, is underground where lightning tends not to go.

 

Unplugging kit when there's lightning about is certainly wise, but not properly grounding your installation is certainly unwise. And add that RCBO if you don't already have one (also required in the UK).

 

By the way, the UK has three main grounding systems in place:-

TT - with a local rod, often used in Thailand.

TN-C-S with PME - close enough for our purposes to the Thai TN-C-S with MEN (MEN adds a local rod and visible N-E link to the neutral grounding on the poles).

And

TN-S - Not often seen in Thailand although some condos and large projects may well be wired this way.

 

The Wiki has quite a good explanation of these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

5 minutes ago, Crossy said:

By the way, the UK has three main grounding systems in place:-

Got that and corrected my BS number (not BS comment) ???? 

 

the regs do in fact define 5 systems (TN-S, TN-C, TN-C-S, TT and IT)

though almost certainly it's just the main 3 in use 

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Got that and corrected my BS number (not BS comment) ???? 

 

the regs do in fact define 5 systems (TN-S, TN-C, TN-C-S, TT and IT)

though almost certainly it's just the main 3 in use 

 

TN-C would be illegal in any domestic installation and IT would be very, very unusual.

 

[Chazar]

Ok to get back on topic its  getting even worse, so now I feed  the gate  opener from the house  supply and the gate opens  closes  fine, no stuttering yet on start up, the motor  feels weak like its  really struggling to  push the gate like it aint getting enough juice.

Works  all day no stuttering, then I go to bed, next day open the gate fine............close the gate it wont do it FIRST TIME of the day, like its  really struggling the motors  trying but doesnt seem to have any "push" in it.

What i do is  push it past the spring microswitch and after that first time it  will work fine all day BUT  still feels  like its  struggling on open  close.

To compound things further I now have the BRAND  new ( 3  years  old) whole  opener  fitted and  noticed the other day the soft start close dial just goes  round and round ie no adjustment obviously broken from new, BUT this feature can be switched off, so Ive done that. Makes  no difference to the FIRST CLOSE of  the day (  not  open, thats fine).

I spoke to a  guy at PEA he seems quite  clued up and he is coming to have a look.

After the lightning strike "wherever" it was, and it wasnt  at or even close to my house, this has  happened.

Almost like as the motor demands its  initial startup its struggling, once past the micro switch its runs ok.

Currently works  all day  so the next morning I have to get up, open it ( fine)  then on the close  push it past the microswitch spring. after that works  all day???

I dont have any test equipment and wouldnt know what exactly to check for but MR PEA man will check, driving me nuts.

[tjo o tjim]

Have you checked the voltage at the terminals of the controller both with the unit stopped and running?  Maybe even multiple times per day... usually low torque is voltage related. 

[Crossy]

Definitely time to do some voltage checks, at the supply end and at the motor.

 

How long is the cable run to the gate? Wire size?

 

I know it only started after the "lightning incident" but it may have been on the line before and any new equiment installed by PEA could have pushed the voltage under the "works reliably" value.

 

[Chazar]

3 hours ago, tjo o tjim said:

Have you checked the voltage at the terminals of the controller both with the unit stopped and running?  Maybe even multiple times per day... usually low torque is voltage related. 

BINGO .............suspected  supply form pea  was  crapas  motor  start up feels  weak, dont have a  meter so went  out and bought one,  just about to check voltage, but I took the gate  motor over to my pals  condo at Hua  Hin wired it  up and works  like it  used to,  STRONG on start up not the half  hearted feeble  attempt here.

PEA  coming monday lets  see what voltage I get now straight off the meter....probably find its 170v or something daft.

[Chazar]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

Definitely time to do some voltage checks, at the supply end and at the motor.

 

How long is the cable run to the gate? Wire size?

 

I know it only started after the "lightning incident" but it may have been on the line before and any new equiment installed by PEA could have pushed the voltage under the "works reliably" value.

 

Cable run from meter in road  to gate is 24 metres,  cable from meter to breaker  box is 10mm  copper NYY also inside hdpe trunking , from breaker  box  to gate it  runs 2.5mm nyy to motor a distance of  4 metres from breaker  box. Gate manufacturer says 1.5mm is ok but I always buy thicker, the motor is  running considerably less powerful than it was  before, am checking voltage  now.

[lopburi3]

Your mention of 170v raises the question of a three phase transformer having one fuse blown.  Normally those on the blown phase would have no power and users would be reporting but if no users maybe not.  Recall our power would drop to 160-170v range when another phase was blown here in mooban.  

[Chazar]

Ok result of  voltage  test, 230 V, when start the motor it drops  for a fraction of a  second to 226 then goes  back up to 230v same at all the breaker  boxes 230V so  no under voltage.......... next test pls  bearing in mind my limited  knowledge of multimeters.

I  just bought this  meter.

[Crossy]

Do the same test at the motor itself please.

 

 

[Chazar]

47 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Do the same test at the motor itself please.

 

 

already done 230v dropping  for fraction of a  second to 226v then back up to 230v am beginning  to wonder if the new gate motor has some other fault also, ie first one damaged by lightning second one just damaged from new being as the "soft start"  button just rotates which Ive switched off  so should  have no effect.

Just reconnected  it back to its original  supply and this is  226V dropping to 221v as  the motor  starts  then back up to 226v after initial start

So to my house i get 230v and  from the second electric meter 226-7v

Stutters  occasionally at the 226 v meter but from my house at 230v no  stuttering just an initial refusal to close after opening first thing in the day....... after that opens and closes  fine although seems  slow

[Chazar]

Come to the conclusion that the first motor  has  got  damaged from lightning (blew 17 led lights round the land also) BUT the second brand  new one also has a  fault  in the soft close adjustment, if  set too  low it  doesnt have the strength to open the door and the manual says this and it seems this is what is happening, First run of the day the door  opens ok but when getting to the "stop" and trying to return  struggles, after the first use of the day it works  ok but you can see its "trying hard" but soft close is stopping it.

I have a new pcb coming from China and that will have a functioning soft close. In the meantime ordered a  whole new motor.

Just bad luck the brand  new motor ( 2-3 years old on my shelf inside  house) had a fault from new.

Also now fitting surge protection.

[Chazar]

All confirmed  now, the soft  close function on the "new" motor  pcb just revolves and unfortunately was set in its lowest (softest)  closing  setting. This means that the  motor doesnt have enough grunt to push the gate  open sometimes, new  3386 potentiometer ordered and will fix at least one of the motors. Also ordered  totally new pcb for the first one which will solve that issue. PIA trying to sort  it  out all for the sake of a  duff new motor and the cost of the part 30 odd  baht!

Unfortunate the new motor had the dodgy potentiometer (left one in the first photo) and that it was  set in the softest position, if it was in the hardest the gate would have worked  fine.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Chazar