Mandatory health insurance due for long stay tourists

[Huckenfell]

On 10/13/2019 at 1:05 PM, the guest said:

Not sure what the fuss is? Thais when travelling to Europe must have valid insurance. 

Thats not the point, the crux of the matter is the requirements of cover .  Bht 40,000 for out patients  one year , work out how many days one will have to attend outpatients for this.

[Huckenfell]

On 10/13/2019 at 1:11 PM, Assurancetourix said:

You know a lot of thai who come to visit for more than three months in Europe?

 

Here we are talking about a long-term tourist visa: one year, not three months.

O-A is NOT a tourist visa, it is a retirement visa.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Huckenfell

[Huckenfell]

On 10/13/2019 at 1:51 PM, beachproperty said:

I'm here on a Non-immigrant O Visa (Extension on that for the last 16 years). Does adding 400,000 Baht to the 800,ooo baht count as "self insurance". And what happens when I leave on vacation next month outside of Thailand and return? Will I be denied entry if I have no proof of insurance?

Go right back to the beginning and read everything again. The mandatory insurance is only for those on the O-A retirement visa

[Huckenfell]

4 hours ago, balo said:

If you're in your early 50's and healthy you can get yearly insurance well under 20k baht. So I don't understand why they talk about 40k minimum. 
 

Why do people say "You can get it"  when they really mean "It is offered   Thereby lies the difference, there will be a lot of whoops to jump through for sure.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

Just did the math for my 89 year old aunt who is likely to need to come stay with me at some point

 

	Visa cost	Mandatory Insurance	Real Insurance	Total	USD per year	Monthly equivalent
OA	100	218,250	263,500	481,850	15,544	777.1774194
TE	100,000	0	263,500	363,500	11,726	977.1505376

 

As you can see, TE is significantly less expensive

 

It will be so for anyone over 75

 

That's assuming that future rule changes don't end up also applying a health insurance requirement to future TE visas specifically, and/or tourist class visas in general.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 hours ago, balo said:

If you're in your early 50's and healthy you can get yearly insurance well under 20k baht. So I don't understand why they talk about 40k minimum. 
 

 

Part of the issue about costs is ultimately resolving just what kind of Thai health insurance policies will be deemed acceptable to meet the government's O-A requirement.

 

The policies listed and linked on the Longstay TGIA website as meeting the government's new requirement all have very high premiums that get even higher with age -- supposedly because they were packaged and quoted by those insurers to a coverage group (O-As) that's 100% age 50 and above.

 

On the other hand, a lot of those same companies offer general market health insurance policies to anyone of any age that also meet the 400K/40K IPD/OPD coverage requirements, and those are the ones that generally have lower annual premiums, like the 20K baht figure you mentioned for someone about age 50.

 

It may turn out to be that those general market Thai insurance policies with the lower premiums will end up being acceptable as meeting the O-A requirement, though that's not entirely clear right now. (And the Immigration regulation right now specifies that qualifying policies can only be purchased thru the TGIA Longstay website and its links to O-A only policies, though at least one involved insurer is now saying all of their qualifying general market policies also should be acceptable).

 

A lot of the premium shock that people expressed when the Thai authorities first announced this B.S. was based on the prices of the O-A program only policies.

Edited October 15, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Sheryl]

11 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That's assuming that future rule changes don't end up also applying a health insurance requirement to future TE visas specifically, and/or tourist class visas in general.

 

Yes, I m concerned about that but trust such a change if it comes would not be retroactive to an already issued PE visa.

 

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[saengd]

The numbers quoted today for future reinsurance premiums will almost certainly be adjusted for cost of living/inflation as we go forward, you can only expect the actual numbers to be much higher.

[soisanuk]

10 hours ago, Huckenfell said:

CORRECTION !

I am the holder of an O-A retirement visa which expires on 9th of December.

Today i visited the Koh Samui Immigration office to clarify my position regarding the new insurance requirement. On showing them that my visa expired on 9th December. I was told that provided i left the country and returned BEFORE the due date, that i would be stamped back in with NO insurance requirements for a further 12 months.

While I am sure the Koh Samui Immigration Office told you that, but it would not be the first time an Immigration Office or Officer gave advice they believed, but turned out to not be true.  Since the Koh Samui IO is not involved with allowing "entry" into Thailand and providing the appropriate permission to stay stamp based on Visa type, they may not yet be aware of the Immigration Bureau instructions to IOs at ports of entry regarding the permission to stay period for holders of a Non-Immigrant O-A Visa, which now requires health insurance be in force for the period of stay to be granted. 

 

The last page of the posting on the Immigration Website contains those instructions which are to be effective on 31 October 2019. It seems clear that beginning on that date, if you enter Thailand using a Non-Immigrant O-A Visa, especially for the second or later entry will have to show they have health insurance to cover the full year normally granted OR if less than the full year, a period to correspond to the insurance expiration date OR if already expired, not permitted an entry using that Visa (i.e., getting a 30 day Visa Exempt).

 

The Immigration Page is:  https://www.immigration.go.th/read?content_id=5d9c3b074d8a8f318362a8aa&fbclid=IwAR39UI_zBxVLedZKgZeAeYnvb0yyyIsr6SHPhnq64ohzACO7VsLUU_LlGn0.  The pdf file in the "window" on that page contains the new requirements - scroll down for the English translation.  Page 11 (last page) shows the following - note items 2 & 3:

 

Quote

Subject: Permission for an alien who has been granted Non-Immigrant Visa Class 0-A (not exceeding 1 year) to temporarily stay in the Kingdom

 

Deputy Commissioners of the Immigration Bureau
Commanders of the Immigration Bureau

 

According to the Immigration Bureau's urgent letter no.0029.142/160 dated January 14, 2008 concerning the practice for permitting an alien to temporarily stay in the Kingdom no.4 paragraph 2 appointed an immigration officer to permit an alien, who has been granted Non-Immigrant Visa with the letter "A" after the purpose of visiting's code, to stay in the Kingdom for not exceeding 1 year counting from the date of arrival in the Kingdom,

 

On April 2, 2019, the Cabinet resolved and approved in principle to add a criterion concerning a health insurance's requirement for an alien applying for Non-Immigrant Visa Class 0-A with the purpose of retirement. (not exceeding 1 year)

 

Therefore, when an alien, who has been granted Non-Immigrant Visa Class 0-A from an overseas Royal Thai Embassy with the purpose of retirement (not exceeding 1 year), enters the Kingdom, an immigration officer shall abide by the following practices for permitting an alien to stay in the Kingdom, effective from October 31, 2019 onwards:

 

1.An alien, who has been granted Non-Immigrant Visa Class 0-A for single entry or multiple entry and enters the Kingdom for the first time, will be permitted to stay in the Kingdom for a coverage period of health insurance for not exceeding 1 year. An immigration officer shall check any remarks on a visa issued by an overseas Royal Thai Embassy for consideration and approval.

 

2.An alien, who has been granted Non-Immigrant Visa Class 0-A for multiple entry and enters the Kingdom from the second time onwards, will be permitted to stay in the Kingdom for the remaining coverage period of health insurance for not exceeding 1 year.

 

3.An alien, who has been granted Non-Immigrant Visa Class 0-A for multiple entry but the coverage period of health insurance has already expired, even if the visa is still valid, will not be permitted to enter the Kingdom. However, the said alien can buy a health insurance in Thailand in order to be permitted to enter the Kingdom for a coverage period of health insurance for not exceeding 1 year.

 

4.In case of the permission of stay in the Kingdom exceeds the coverage period of health insurance, an immigration officer shall apply mutatis mutandis the Order of the Immigration Bureau no.115/2553 dated June 29, 2010 concerning the Amendment of an immigration stamp in a passport and the Order of the Immigration Bureau no.79/2557 dated April 1, 2014 concerning the Guideline in case of an alien's granted permission of stay in Kingdom is not meet a visa class or visa exemption.

 

Please be informed and proceed accordingly.

Police Lieutenant General Sompong Chingduang Commissioner of the Immigration Bureau

 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by soisanuk

[asiaexpat]

Another inaccurate and confusing story by Nation News. 

[SpokaneAl]

Bali will accept Medicare as proof of insurance unlike Thailand when applying for a retirement visa.

Medicare offers no coverage, zero, in either Bali or Thailand.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Sheryl]

16 hours ago, balo said:

If you're in your early 50's and healthy you can get yearly insurance well under 20k baht. So I don't understand why they talk about 40k minimum. 
 

 

The 40K minimum is the amount of OPD coverage required (unnecessarily and a big part of the problem). Not the premium.

 

I don't think you can  get cover for under 20K baht in your 50's from any of the approved companies. And premiums will well exceed 100K a month as you age.

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, soisanuk said:

While I am sure the Koh Samui Immigration Office told you that, but it would not be the first time an Immigration Office or Officer gave advice they believed, but turned out to not be true.  Since the Koh Samui IO is not involved with allowing "entry" into Thailand and providing the appropriate permission to stay stamp based on Visa type, they may not yet be aware of the Immigration Bureau instructions to IOs at ports of entry regarding the permission to stay period for holders of a Non-Immigrant O-A Visa, which now requires health insurance be in force for the period of stay to be granted. 

 

The last page of the posting on the Immigration Website contains those instructions which are to be effective on 31 October 2019. It seems clear that beginning on that date, if you enter Thailand using a Non-Immigrant O-A Visa, especially for the second or later entry will have to show they have health insurance to cover the full year normally granted OR if less than the full year, a period to correspond to the insurance expiration date OR if already expired, not permitted an entry using that Visa (i.e., getting a 30 day Visa Exempt).

 

The Immigration Page is:  https://www.immigration.go.th/read?content_id=5d9c3b074d8a8f318362a8aa&fbclid=IwAR39UI_zBxVLedZKgZeAeYnvb0yyyIsr6SHPhnq64ohzACO7VsLUU_LlGn0.  The pdf file in the "window" on that page contains the new requirements - scroll down for the English translation.  Page 11 (last page) shows the following - note items 2 & 3:

 

 

 

It is NOT clear that this applies to O-A visas issued prior to the effective date of 31 October. It is possible IOs will so interpret it,  but it is hardly clear.

[jimn]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

The 40K minimum is the amount of OPD coverage required (unnecessarily and a big part of the problem). Not the premium.

 

I don't think you can  get cover for under 20K baht in your 50's from any of the approved companies. And premiums will well exceed 100K a month as you age.

I think the crux of this whole situation is that no one in their right mind will bother with the OA visa in future, with its Thai insurance requirement. Its way way to expensive, the OA visa will end up being a visa on offer that no one takes up. People will find other ways to visit Thailand. 

I am seriously worried of the direction that Thailand is going in. 

I have been looking at the new e visa application system implemented in London. It is an absolute pile of *****. How any nation who is serious about attracting people to visit even on a simple tourist visa can have a system like this astounds me. It is an appalling system that most people will not even bother with, full of bugs and errors and stupid requirements. Amazingly ignorant of the Thai authorities to allow this system to go live. This will have a big impact on the people from the UK coming to Thailand on any sort of Visa. Its just too complicated.

[Sheryl]

14 hours ago, nongsung said:

While it’s unsure whether ‘retirement’ is (or will be) included in the requirements for an extension of stay begin next year I (but mostly my wife) did some homework. I live here for over 10 years and am self insured. I can cope with a major medical bill

but insurance would be a good thing if the coverage is good and the premium reasonable.
We all know how the coverage and premiums look like at longstay-etc-etc.

With these companies you are in a pool together and in this pool the risks are higher than average; hence the high premiums.

But it looks that I can get a hospital insurance from AXA OUTSIDE of this pool and that’s where it gets a much better deal. 800.000 coverage with 100.000 outpatient for a little  over 42K. I’m 64 BTW.

 

I’m waiting for the final details from the Krungthai bank but they said that it would be accepted by immigration.

 

Requirements; living in Thailand for a minimum of 2 years, married and a yellow book. 

 

I’ll keep you all posted if it is all true or another

false promise.

 

AXA is one of the approved companies. 

 

Any policy from one of the approved companies that includes at least 400/40 cover should be OK. The key issue is getting the certificate from one of the companies on the "list". The problem is that  policies that include OPD cover, even of not specially designed for retirees, cost considerably more.

 

The other problem is that most of the companies on the "list"  (1) will notenrol ( newly insure) people over age 65 and (2) will not  continue cover for life.

[Sheryl]

11 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Part of the issue about costs is ultimately resolving just what kind of Thai health insurance policies will be deemed acceptable to meet the government's O-A requirement.

 

The policies listed and linked on the Longstay TGIA website as meeting the government's new requirement all have very high premiums that get even higher with age -- supposedly because they were packaged and quoted by those insurers to a coverage group (O-As) that's 100% age 50 and above.

 

On the other hand, a lot of those same companies offer general market health insurance policies to anyone of any age that also meet the 400K/40K IPD/OPD coverage requirements, and those are the ones that generally have lower annual premiums, like the 20K baht figure you mentioned for someone about age 50.

 

It may turn out to be that those general market Thai insurance policies with the lower premiums will end up being acceptable as meeting the O-A requirement, though that's not entirely clear right now. (And the Immigration regulation right now specifies that qualifying policies can only be purchased thru the TGIA Longstay website and its links to O-A only policies, though at least one involved insurer is now saying all of their qualifying general market policies also should be acceptable).

 

A lot of the premium shock that people expressed when the Thai authorities first announced this B.S. was based on the prices of the O-A program only policies.

 

There is no limit to what policy you have to get, and most  of the links on the tgia website don't go to anty specific policy, just the company website. Any policy offered by the listed companies which is at least 400/40 will do, nowhere is it or suggested written otherwise. . BUT you will find that (1) these are ALL very expensive due to the OPD cover; (2) with just 1-2 exceptions, most of the companies have no policy to offer for people enrolling after age 65; and (3) with just a few exceptions, most of the policies do not guarantee lifetime renewal. Many cut you off by age 70.

 

What is not clear is whether policies from companies other than those listed  will be accepted.  I have heard from my broker that April Thailand policies will be because they are underwritten by LMG and LMG has confirmed they will issue the certificate for these (still have to have the OPD cover though, which for most people will mean upgrading to a much more costly policy).  I think it likely same will be true of other Thai-based insurers IF one of the  listed companies is their underwriter.

 

No idea at this stage  whether other local policies not underwritten by the listed companies will be accepted nor the situation for foreign policies.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

most  of the links on the tgia website don't go to anty specific policy, just the company website.

 

When I look, I see the following company listings linking to specific policy offerings:

 

--Pacific Cross

--LMG

--Thai Health

--AXA

--Viriyah

 

Also, it may well be that any of the various listed insurers' policies that meet the 400/400K requirement will be accepted. But as I've noted here before, the Pacific Cross rep has posted here previously that originally, only the specific O-A policies were going to be accepted, but that was later changed, at least for Pacific Cross.

 

Also, I noted that on some of the less expensive general (non-OA specific) policies available, for their outpatient coverage, it's sometimes expressed as like 1500b or 2000b maximum per visit, with up to 30 visits per year.

 

So, if you total 1500 or 2000 times the maximum 30 visits, that gets you above the 40,000b OA outpatient requirement. But if you look at it on a per episode basis, obviously it doesn't.  The Immigration reg doesn't say 40K and 400K PER INCIDENT or even PER YEAR, just says need to have insurance "which covers the length of stay" in the country.

 

On the Pacific Cross O-A specific policies, in contrast, under the outpatient section, they only talk about coverage in terms of total maximums for the year, being 45K, 60K or 75K....

 

I raise the difference, just because it would be important to know and confirm in advance that any policy with a 30 visits X XXXX baht outpatient coverage provision is going to qualify for an O-A certificate and be accepted by Immigration.

Edited October 16, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Sheryl]

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

When I look, I see the following company listings linking to specific policy offerings:

 

--Pacific Cross

--LMG

--Thai Health

--AXA

--Viriyah

 

Also, it may well be that any of the various listed insurers' policies that meet the 400/400K requirement will be accepted. But as I've noted here before, the Pacific Cross rep has posted here previously that originally, only the specific O-A policies were going to be accepted, but that was later changed, at least for Pacific Cross.

 

 

Nowhere in either the police order or the "Guidelines" on the tgia website does it say anything about an O-A specific policy. In fact much the contrary,  it clearly states just a policy meeting the 400/40 requirement.

 

I suspect what you are reporting is from conversations prior to the drafting and release of the police order. This thing has been in the works for years and there have been many meetings over that time between insurance agents, brokers and TI. Many things were considered during that interval and subsequently changed or discarded.

 

I do not think it useful to keep bringing up comments made before issuance of the police order. You may seriously mislead people. No specific policy is required, just a policy with at least 400K inpt and 40K outpt cover, full stop.

 

(and probably also from one of the listed companies though this point remains to be clarified).

 

To be more precise: what is needed is a certificate on the letterhead of one of those companies stating you have a policy that meets TI requirements. So when discussing a policy with an insurer the question  should be" if I buy this policy will you issue me the O-A visa  letter for immigration?"

 

[Sheryl]

I think the crux of this whole situation is that no one in their right mind will bother with the OA visa in future, with its Thai insurance requirement. Its way way to expensive, the OA visa will end up being a visa on offer that no one takes up. People will find other ways to visit Thailand. 
I am seriously worried of the direction that Thailand is going in. 
I have been looking at the new e visa application system implemented in London. It is an absolute pile of *****. How any nation who is serious about attracting people to visit even on a simple tourist visa can have a system like this astounds me. It is an appalling system that most people will not even bother with, full of bugs and errors and stupid requirements. Amazingly ignorant of the Thai authorities to allow this system to go live. This will have a big impact on the people from the UK coming to Thailand on any sort of Visa. Its just too complicated.

The problem is that options are limited. In the US a retiree can't get an METV or O visa, at least not according to Embassy and consulate websites. It is O-A or single entry TR .

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I do not think it useful to keep bringing up comments made before issuance of the police order. You may seriously mislead people. No specific policy is required, just a policy with at least 400K inpt and 40K outpt cover, full stop.

 

I never said it IS required. I said it WAS required at a prior point in time in the development of the insurance requirement...  And the Pacific Cross reps comments on the broader acceptance of all policies was made here just in the past couple days...

 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[zydeco]

Welcome to your carefree, relaxing retirement in Thailand, where you spend the majority of your time constantly worrying about the minutiae of health insurance policies, immigration income requirement changes, wondering if your weekend trip to the next province 2 km away will require a notification in person of the immigration bureau which is 45 km away, and whether the rules effecting your stay after two or more decades can be arbitrarily changed on a whim with less than three weeks warning.

[madmen]

5 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Welcome to your carefree, relaxing retirement in Thailand, where you spend the majority of your time constantly worrying about the minutiae of health insurance policies, immigration income requirement changes, wondering if your weekend trip to the next province 2 km away will require a notification in person of the immigration bureau which is 45 km away, and whether the rules effecting your stay after two or more decades can be arbitrarily changed on a whim with less than three weeks warning.

You're either going to be staying with friends and family or a hotel. you won't need to report anything

[Jingthing]

Go right back to the beginning and read everything again. The mandatory insurance is only for those on the O-A retirement visa

Meaning what exactly. Old ones. New ones. Extensions?

You don't really know for sure and I would argue at this point nobody does.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Jingthing]

 
That's assuming that future rule changes don't end up also applying a health insurance requirement to future TE visas specifically, and/or tourist class visas in general.
 

Of course we can't make any such assumptions.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Exploring Thailand]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

To be more precise: what is needed is a certificate on the letterhead of one of those companies stating you have a policy that meets TI requirements. So when discussing a policy with an insurer the question  should be" if I buy this policy will you issue me the O-A visa  letter for immigration?"

Is the information regarding the certificate on headed notepaper something you have learned about from talking to the Thai insurance companies? The only certificate I've seen is the one for foreign companies. If there is flexibility in exactly what the companies can write, that would help a lot.

[jimn]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

The problem is that options are limited. In the US a retiree can't get an METV or O visa, at least not according to Embassy and consulate websites. It is O-A or single entry TR .

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Not doubting your word, but I had a quick look. That appears to be correct and its very supprising, as other consulates in other countries offer them. Just be thankfull that the US have not started to use e visa yet. Have a look at the UK site if you fancy a laugh. You can register and start a dummy application, lie and say you are from the UK and see what the pitfalls are coming the way of every visa applcation soon.

[Sheryl]

10 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

Is the information regarding the certificate on headed notepaper something you have learned about from talking to the Thai insurance companies? The only certificate I've seen is the one for foreign companies. If there is flexibility in exactly what the companies can write, that would help a lot.

 

I got this information from local brokers and I have elsewhere posted a copy of the form being used by Pacific Cross, it is almost word for word the same as the one for foreign companies.

 

I don't think there isn't going to be flexibility, Imm is going to want standard wording and very short and to the point. The last thing they want is a lot of words explaining ins and outs of a policy (e.g.:"  there is no separate limit for OPD, the USD 1 million limit apples to both combined..." "OPD visits are covered but only for conditions XYZ and post-hospitalization"  "covered subject to a deductible of XX" ) etc though these things are in fact often the case with foreign policies.

 

This as well as clarifying that Imm will accept foreign policies is the issue. Western companies tend to think very legalistically and literally  and will not want to sign something attesting to immigration regulations they do not understand or that are not clearly spelled out, or that differ one iota from the exact wording of their own policies. They'll want to provide instead a summary of the policy benefits - if they are willing to pay attention to the issue at all.

 

I forget now which thread but there was someone working on this with their insurer and they were asked to provide an English language copy of the Cabinet Resolution....!

 

If the foreign policy is obtained via a Thailand based broker there is more chance I think. Broker, representing not one but many clients, is better positioned to explain the need to an insurance company and get them to sign.  But last I heard even local Brokers did nto know if foreign policies will be accepted. Police order makes no mention.

[Sheryl]

5 minutes ago, jimn said:

Not doubting your word, but I had a quick look. That appears to be correct and its very supprising, as other consulates in other countries offer them. Just be thankfull that the US have not started to use e visa yet. Have a look at the UK site if you fancy a laugh. You can register and start a dummy application, lie and say you are from the UK and see what the pitfalls are coming the way of every visa applcation soon.

 

No thanks, I have enough headaches of my own worrying about how to bring my aged aunt here!!!

[Exploring Thailand]

3 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

This as well as clarifying that Imm will accept foreign policies is the issue. Western companies tend to think very legalistically and literally  and will not want to sign something attesting to immigration regulations they do not understand or that are not clearly spelled out, or that differ one iota from the exact wording of their own policies. They'll want to provide instead a summary of the policy benefits - if they are willing to pay attention to the issue at all.

 

I forget now which thread but there was someone working on this with their insurer and they were asked to provide an English language copy of the Cabinet Resolution....!

Exactly. I think the clause about the cabinet resolution is going to be the stumbling block. And there's no need for it to be there. All they really need is the company to confirm the 400/40. As far I know the resolution doesn't add any additional requirements. As TI seems to have farmed all of this of to the insurers, I'm wondering it they might be the ones who actually drew up that certificate. 

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

When I look, I see the following company listings linking to specific policy offerings:

 

--Pacific Cross

--LMG

--Thai Health

--AXA

--Viriyah

 

 

 

Thai health directs you to a [page detailing their most expensive plan but same page has links to other plans as well.