Bang Bang

[GuestHouse]

GuestHouse, you have confirmed my long held opinion that the majority of Thais have virtually no self control and with even the slightest provocation will resort to violence.

I don't see it that way, I do however believe the following:

Thai society requires compliance to not showing your emmotions, aka bottle 'em up.

Whereas westerners will generally blow their top when something anoys them Thais internalize their feelings.

Westerners tend to have frequent but low level steam blow offs, Thais just let the pressure build up until eventually it can't be contained and at that point things get nasty.

The usual catalist is alchol (a disinhibitter) and that is why I always advise staying away from Thai men drinking whiskey.

As for

If it weren't for the fact that most of the girls were so god*mn screwable they would not have much more going for them either.

I don't entirely agree with this either, most are not really that 'screwable' and many have a lot more going for them...

But that is just my own opinion.

[KevinN]

mowlem; you said;;So Mexico "banned" guns? How was it enforced?

Strange you compare US with Mexico, but not Canada or UK.""

I have not lived in or visited Canada or UK for years,so can't speak with any authority as to my own experience, But have lived in Mexico as recently as 1998,and did a lot of driving around.

As to their enforcement, You are stopped on the hiways about every 25 to 50 miles by either police[state or federal] or the Mexican army road blocks,you and your vehicle is searched while you stand outside and where you can not see inside the vehicle and they steal most of the things that they can get in their pockets.

Years ago when I worked a bit in Mexico in the outback,I always took firearms with me as they were legal and I also bought some antique and some modern hand guns and recent mfg. muzzle loading shotguns and rifles at the open markets there as well as ammo for some popular calibers.

As to Canada, when I was spending a lot of time there,Guns were plentiful and a lot of folks owned them,and you could take guns thru and they were sealed at the border and the seals were checked at your departure point. But we were allowed to hunt if you were accompanied by a registered guide. All Indians and locals had guns,we were not allowed to have an unsealed gun within a mile of the ALCAN hiway tho.

Well with the posts getting so stupid i will have to depart this thread,[iE] THE MURDER OF INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN BECOME MORALLY RIGHT by snowleopard,,,AK47s SHOULD BE RESTRICTED TO OLDER ONES,,by STROLL,but it is very easy to understand his thinking that people should not be allowed to have guns,being a self confessed junkie and criminal I can see why he would think that way.

The post started out about a shooting in a bar and the best way to protect your self,then went to Cobra attack helos and person ownership of every weapon up to a thermo-nuclear bomb,and most carry permits i have had ,all state that the weapon is not to be carried in a saloon or courthouse. And most people posting on here wouldn't know the difference between an

AK47

MINI 14

M16

AK74

M 14

ARMALITE 223 or a Daisy BB gun

And MAERIM will insist on having the last word,so I will not waste any more of my or your time here.

Edited June 9, 2004 by KevinN

[Johpa]

GuestHouse, you have confirmed my long held opinion that the majority of Thais have virtually no self control and with even the slightest provocation will resort to violence.

Thai culture, as well as neighboring cultures, simply do not give people a chance to learn to express and control many emotions in public, especially anger. The model is "jai yen." The result is literally an infantile ability to control anger once it erupts. Young children also have no experience with strong emotions and tend to throw tantrums. Thai men throw these same tantrums with devestating results, not to mention Thai women who drive their partners either to drink or drive them out of the house.

Compare Thai culture to most Western or Mediterannean cultures where emotions are part of everyday life. Kids grow up seeing adults getting emotional, letting off some steam, and then getting over it and moving on. Thai kids may go through childhood and never see an adult get angry but yet stay in some sort of minimal control. There are no big fat Thai weddings. From another perspective, it is the flip side of "mai pen rai" and we all know that "mai pen rai" kills.

I have no doubt that the figure of 20,000 homicides a year is correct for Thailand. Our Tambon has perhaps a few thousand residents yet it averages at least one murder a year over the past many years. Extrapolate it out and 20,000 is right in line.

[stroll]

Well with the posts getting so stupid i will have to depart this thread,[iE] THE MURDER OF INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN BECOME MORALLY RIGHT by snowleopard,,,AK47s SHOULD BE RESTRICTED TO OLDER ONES,,by STROLL,but it is very easy to understand his thinking that people should not be allowed to have guns,being a self confessed junkie and criminal I can see why he would think that way.

And MAERIM will insist on having the last word,so I will not waste any more of my or your time here.

Good riddance, please leave your guns at the door when you log in again.

Knowing the Thai habit of 'flipping' into irrational outbursts when pushed, I have in most cases done my best to defuse arguments or walk away. I have been close to having someone's foot kicked into my face once (no, it wasn't a drug deal gone sour), but I haven't noticed anybody slinging guns around?

I am amazed how many people here have heard of guns being used in arguments. Is it what the newspapers report, or are we really walking much closer to the edge of wild west practises than T.A.T. makes us believe?

Sorry, it is a long way into the threat, but it has not been established how real the dangers are, quarreling over statistics and gun ownership issues.

[GuestHouse]

There is an oft repeated suggestion amoung expats in Thailand.

"If you ever get into a fight with a Thai man - Kill him, because if you don't he will kill you. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, perhaps months or years down the line, but he will kill you".

I'm not sure I agree with this entirely but I do not doubt it has some basis in reality.

I do recal reading of a case where a Thai man had shot another Thai man over an argument that they had had years earlier.... so who knows?!

[maerim]

And most people posting on here wouldn't know the difference between an

AK47

MINI 14

M16

AK74

M 14

ARMALITE 223 or a Daisy BB gun

So what?

They are all guns and can kill people.

Actually I do know the difference between a AK47 and a AK74 ones a 47 and the other is a 74.

Unless it's a trick question.

If you took time to read the original post nowhere is a bar mentioned and nothing about protecting ones self.

It was also about not getting involved with Thai men when they have had a drink or two.

[stroll]

And most people posting on here wouldn't know the difference between an

AK47

MINI 14

M16

AK74

M 14

ARMALITE 223 or a Daisy BB gun

I know most of them from my nephew's playstation games, and they better stay there.

[footfidforfai]

I was in Sao Paulo for 3 months working on a project and was told by the Brazilians not to stop at traffic light after 10.00pm....geeee

A coulple of Swedish who were on the same project got chased by another car while they were driving with a pistol pointing out at them....

[snowleopard]

Well with the posts getting so stupid i will have to depart this thread,[iE] THE MURDER OF INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN BECOME MORALLY RIGHT by snowleopard,,,

Not by me,but rather by the theocratically theocentric crusader in the White House!

Read my post again unless you wanna misinterpret it accidentally-on-purpose!

I believe it's morally wrong to kill people en masse and then label them collateral damage! Do you?Does Bush?

I don't have any hidden wicked agendas like Bush does;and,that's the most important factor which determines why I'm morally superior to him!

Morality-wise and in other wisdoms,most decent people of the World can beat Bush hands down!

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[Phil Conners]

I was in Sao Paulo for 3 months working on a project and was told by the Brazilians not to stop at traffic light after 10.00pm....geeee

A coulple of Swedish who were on the same project got chased by another car while they were driving with a pistol pointing out at them....

I had the same experience in Sao Paulo, don't miss that one bit. (I do miss the churrascerias and the muchachas though!

[maerim]

I was in Sao Paulo for 3 months working on a project and was told by the Brazilians not to stop at traffic light after 10.00pm....geeee

In that case you feel right at home driving in Thailand then.

[chokrai]

Try having a gun to your head for a couple of hours you might change your mind about owning one. Happened to me about 20 years ago in Canada when a couple of guys broke into my house. As soon as i was able i went out and bought a .357 and learned how to use it. That said i wouldn't have one in Thailand as whatever happens you as the farang will be the loser.

[Richard Hall]

Well, since this thread has started to become an endless one and occasionally tended to get off the original topic, which was as far as I recall, “how dangerous is living in Thailand” thought it might be useful to contribute with an example from real life:

Back in 1999 I was in a stage of planning my immigration to Thailand. My trading company was half way established and well, privately I had a relationship with a Thai woman with two children that lived separated from her former Thai “husband” (never legally married). We were planning to get our future life in Thailand on track also in terms of the children. It was a very typical situation for Thailand. The former husband was a taxi driver tended to drink, had a second wife and was abusive. Buying the daily portion of alcohol was of greater importance than buying milk for the kids.

Sometimes, particularly if trouble was ahead (for example he was owing money to someone) he disappeared for a while and let his wife deal with the situation. Eventually, this got him also a prison sentence.

Anyway, my wife who had moved out for a long time started to make arrangements to put the older daughter into a new school to eventually also make the final cut to the alcohol and money loving family of the husband. Now, it happened, however, that he eventually traced the two and showed up at the new school suggesting giving the daughter and wife a lift home. Understandably, that proposal was refused but after a long sweet voice discussion such as I just want to eat together with my daughter, talk things over and, and, and… they got in the car. The mother was certainly aware she could not let the daughter, who had started to cry in the meantime, go with him alone so that’s why she eventually agreed. When in the car, however, the guy immediately approached the highway taking them out to a restaurant basically in the middle of nowhere in the suburbs of Bangkok.

Now, the three were sitting in that restaurant eating and the guy got engaged into drinking bear and started to confront his wife how she could dare walking out on him. She told him that after all those years of unbearable behavior she could not take it any longer and wanted to start a new life. Things got totally out of control and the guy announced that he would not allow his wife having a better life while he continued to be at grassroots level and announced that this meal was going to be her final one. Now things became really nasty. The daughter was crying in fear and when her mother wanted to go to the toilet her father grabbed his former wife by the hair assuming she was trying to escape. Fortunately, at this moment courageous staff of the restaurant stepped in. They separated mother and daughter from the jerk and enabled them to get out trough the backdoor escorted by one of the personnel who assured them not to worry because if the guy came after them he would need to find him first. It has become dark in the meantime and started to rain but anyway they made it to the next bus stop and mother and daughter got on a bus heading back to Bangkok.

Now, this was when I received a surprise phone call at my office in Germany and learned that the two were sitting in the bus, scared to heck and not daring to return to their home (rented apartment) because they feared that the aggressor might show up there again. We agreed that they better did not head home but rather find shelter with a friend.

Well, it took me about 24 hours to be on a flight to Bangkok certainly with kind of an uncomfortable feeling. Shoot, a Thai madman and this upon I certainly had heard all those stories about Thai style craziness. On the other hand MY family was in danger, which was not bearable by any means!

Eventually, things worked out nicely the two picked me up at the airport, we booked into a hotel (Narai on Silom) and a couple of days later we were on our way to the home village in Isaarn upon we decided the best would be to have the daughter stay and go to school there upon things have settled. This was in November 1999 and since I was about to leave Germany in February 2000 for good anyway we thought it to be best having my girlfriend travel with me to Europe to bridge that time. A friend of ours got her stuff from the apartment, we arranged for a passport and a visa within one week (still possible without any problems back then) and well, so we went.

Now, more than four years later of constantly living in Thailand (I never crossed the border ever since) we have just been living the average life of a Thai family. There are four of us and since August 2002 I have been legally married to my former girlfriend. The daughters have accepted me for long already as the new father and caretaker surely knowing that I will never allow anyone to harm them. Sometimes the people in the Thai communities we have been living in called my wife and myself twins because they never saw us separated and well, after a couple of years people tended to see me almost as Thai despite my Caucasian appearance because I did not behave any differently than them. At home we speak only Thai, the children go to Thai schools, we shop at the Thai market… well, as said just the same average life like in many other Thai families.

Nevertheless, the threat is still alive and will always be but things and attitude have changed upon leaving the sheltered life in social driven Germany which appears to be the absolute opposite to the Land of the Smiles. I have adjusted and consider Thailand as my only home. No, I do not see me as just a guest in this country but rather a resident knowing his duties and his rights. I can sing and write the Thai national anthem, can type Thai language with ten fingers on the keyboard, I pay taxes and my visa and work permit have always been in line with the regulations. I admire his Majesty the King and feel proud if “our” country succeeds. Well, I would say I’m kind of Thainized and hope to manage to become a naturalized Thai one day.

Living a Thai life eventually makes you feel and act Thai and being in your home environment, the place you are really accustomed with, makes you feel safe because you just know the rules. Smile, wai, have a friendly word whenever it is appropriate and stay away from trouble. However, if the trouble comes to you be whole hearted ready. Yes, I know that the sh… will be hitting the fan in the very moment when the former husband shows up but sincerely hope (no, I do not believe in prayers because I am Buddhist) only that I will be around and that neither my wife nor daughter will be on themselves. Afraid? No, because I am ready and I got kind of an edge by knowing the “enemy” while he is not aware of my existence. If he, however, finds ever out where we are living and has not come to sensibility over the years there is actually only one way, which is the Thai way. This you either have to accept and adopt as a fact or you better do not live in this country.

Yes, I feel safe here because I am feeling Thai and give a darn what statistics and gossips say. Germany is far away and just a country I am quite familiar with upon a more than 30 years lasting stay, holding a German passport and having parents that were born there. Frankly said, I do not care if I never make it back there. This decision was already made when I got on the plane in February 2000 and “returned” to the place where I felt I really belong.

Drive your destiny rather than having it drive you or you may realize one day that you actually had a long life indeed but have lived it in vain.

[meemiathai]

If he, however, finds ever out where we are living and has not come to sensibility over the years there is actually only one way, which is the Thai way.

Thai way??

[Richard Hall]

If he, however, finds ever out where we are living and has not come to sensibility over the years there is actually only one way, which is the Thai way.

Thai way??

Yep, another poster referred to it a few posts before. Actually, in our situation there is not much of a choice.

Either leaving Bangkok, which is hard to realize because we need to be here due to our business or face the situation should it ever comes up. If the music starts to play I can not choose good old waltz but will need to dance like a male Thai and what rythm many Thai men usually follow has already been well emphasized in this thread.

No, taking the entire family and going to another country is not an option for various reasons.

[Ryan]

Thailand is generally a safe place.

Just dont start a problem and nothing will come your way, keep a low profile and walk away.

Simple as that.

If you like to display your wealth in forms of jewlery and happen to be in a certain shady area its your fault.

[stroll]

Richard:

I hope you are not thinking of using an illegally acquired gun, mein Freund. You don't want to create a lose-lose situation, but I think you are more intelligent than that. Serve him a spiked 'welcome drink', then ditch him in a Klong and let him drown. Cause of death will be 'heart stopped beating'....

[Richard Hall]

I hope you are not thinking of using an illegally acquired gun, mein Freund. You don't want to create a lose-lose situation, but I think you are more intelligent than that. Serve him a spiked 'welcome drink', then ditch him in a Klong and let him drown. Cause of death will be 'heart stopped beating'....

Nein, kein Grund zur Sorge und Danke fuer den Rat.

Yes, I absolutely agree possessing an illegal gun will do you no good in any respect. As you say a lose - lose situation.

[Dutchy]

Thailand is probebly one of the safest places to live in my opinion. 

Are you mad?

Thailand is so safe that every one will know how much your minimum salary will be.. it's somehow a little bit higher than that what the locals make...

Life will become only saver in Thailand...

[maerim]

If you like to display your wealth in forms of jewlery and happen to be in a certain shady area its your fault.

Oh I see, can you let us know just how much or how little tom foolery is required to make walking in shady areas risky as the sun shines quiet a bit so I do tend to walk in the shade.

Or as I suspect you mean a bit of a rough area can you let me know the best places to walk or have a drink without getting bumped off?

Thank's

[Dutchy]

Hmmm...

Total Murders per year : 5140

Murders with firearms: 20032

? 

Where's the mistake? Typo on the 20032? (2032?)

Hmm Stats are something else, you make the mistake to assume that stats need to add up nicely. They do not in Thailand, when you compare the Thai official number of foreigners that died in Thailand with the embassy reports you will see shocking discrepancies. The main difference is that embassies provide correct information and the Thai government.... well hmm.. that's irrelevant, isn't it?

[Ryan]

Or as I suspect you mean a bit of a rough area can you let me know the best places to walk or have a drink without getting bumped off?

I dont know of many places where you will get bumped off unless of course you are making a problem with a thai group of individuals at a local thai pub.

Do you consider Bangkok that unsafe?

[ChiangMaiThai]

By FBI statistics in the US where gun control is heavily enforced crime has spiraled upwards by people using guns, In contrast where citizens are encouraged to arm them selves crime has diminished, Basically criminals are a cowardly lot who would not take on an armed subject knowing they would be the victim, This has been established in Australia where gun control is very strict & crime has skyrocketed, Also in the UK, The Bobbies used to be not armed but now have been armed to control the upsurge of violence w/ firearms.

Criminals do not register their guns where the authorities require gun control, Nor do they buy them yet they still get them & continue using them on law abiding citizens who are unarmed. In the very heart of the US the nations capitol DC they had the highest murder rate of the nation by firearms & also strict gun control, So go figure, The facts do not lie, Yet gun control advocates still argue that taking away guns reduce crime is a lot of hogwash, Even when the facts prove different.

In the US where gun control is heavily enforced??? What are you on about? Where any 18 year old idiot can go to a local Kmart and buy a rifle? Where any criminal can go to a gun show. This is gun control?

[KevinN]

CMT; Yes that is correct, The US gov't makes some of the laws, But city's,county's and states also make rules and law independent of Federal laws.And Federal law cannot replace state law.The way the feds get past that is to threaten to cut off fed. spending if the state doesn't comply,,and sometimes it works.

The US mainly makes the laws that say an item cannot be brought into the country or what can be imported.

The State will also modify the law,or make a law of their own that is even more strict.But no one can override the rights stated in the US Constitution or the Bill Of Rights.

The city and county can also make their own laws pertaining to a certain subject, Like no liquor to be sold in this county or city, no firearms allowed or that they will not honor any carry permits that are issued any where else. NY is one such city and so is Portland Oregon, You can have a carry permit issued in Oregon,but it will not be honored in Multnoma county[Portland], NY city has a ban on all hand guns and very strict permits on long guns.To the best of my knowledge.

That is what is called DEMOCRACY,,"the will of the majority will rule."

[dfwbkk]

Hmmm...

Total Murders per year : 5140

Murders with firearms: 20032

? 

Where's the mistake? Typo on the 20032? (2032?)

Hmm Stats are something else, you make the mistake to assume that stats need to add up nicely. They do not in Thailand, when you compare the Thai official number of foreigners that died in Thailand with the embassy reports you will see shocking discrepancies. The main difference is that embassies provide correct information and the Thai government.... well hmm.. that's irrelevant, isn't it?

Well, TiT and all that, but the web-site that gave us all the data for this discussion (www.nationmaster.com) appears fairly trustworthy (hey, it's not Thai...).

If you look through the 2 lists for these 2 categories you'll quickly realize that only LOS has the numbers backwards/not adding up/screwed up...

So, my question was really: Is there any other source that can provide stats in regards to these discrepancies?

It may well be 20032 mwf/yr, but then the total number of murders needs to be at a higher level (51400?).

/// DFW

[stroll]

Statistics are deceptive, as I tried to point out earlier. during the early 90's, when some social benefit regulations tightened in the UK, many unemployed became very ill and switched to sickness benefit, subsequently unemployment figures dropped, great achievement for the government!

Equally, when a legitimate gun owner shots down a real or imagined attacker, this will not appear in the crime figures, for example.

Statistics are not useful in arguments, unless you know who made them and what for.

[snowleopard]

"the will of the majority will rule."

And...try to get that mob behind you!

Far,far...behind you!

Cheers

Snowleopard.

[KevinN]

Snowleopard said;;Draft dodging and disobedience might be a good thing sometimes!

Why should murder of innocent women and children with firearms suddenly become morally right and even heroic just because a theocratic moron and hypocrite with apocalyptic obsessions like "George W. Bush-Baby" says so?!

Frequent prayer meetings held among empty war heads in the Oval Office to ask for divine guidance as to when the optimal moment for launching Armageddon has arrived!

Amount of cannon fodder is inconsequential and soldiers expendable!

Sacrificial lambs on the nationalistic altar!

He,himself, is a draft dodger,isn't he?

Are victims of collateral damage included in the statistics,"Murder with Firearms"?

I am sorry,as I did only copy a part of you post and not the entire thing.

Also for someone that is not or has never been in a situation such as Viet Nam in the 60s or Irag today there is a lot that does not come to mind.

If you are in a war such as WW1 or WW2,then you are shooting at each other on battlefields and in uniform,the NVA was mostly in uniform but the VC were not,and it was a gorilla war and you wern't sure who to shoot.and when the IRAQ went into the towns to fight,then it did put innocent civilians at risk,they did it not the other side,and terrorists are never in uniform but can kill you just the same and a lot more killing with hidden bombs and such that mainly target innocents. so there fore I would put the real blame on them.Saddam moved his sensitive instillations into hospitals and school and heavy populated areas,the collation troops would rather have fought in the open deserts.

And someone here is classifying long guns and hand guns as WMDs, any military rifle or handgun only shoots FMJ ammo,and as such were not really made for sure kills,if they were then they would shoot soft nose full expanding bullets. But FMJ ammo will not expand and will just carry on right thru with minimal damage,that is what they were designed to do,the thought is,if you punch a hole in someone and not kill him then you have taken 3 people out of battle,1 with the hole and 2 to care for him.if you meant to kill him,you would only take out 1.In earlier times the US army was armed with 45/70X120 rifles with soft lead, then went to a 30/06 FMJ, then down to a 7.62X68 and then on down to a 5.56. as the main reason was not to kill but just wound and take as many out of battle as possible.plus that the troop is allowed to carry twice as much ammo because it is smaller and lighter, as is the weapon that fires it,.

WMDs are either aerial bombs or rockets or artillery shells fired at long range that contain chemicals or nuclear material that depends upon heavy collateral damage.