Digital nomad, Thailand ?

[Max69xl]

5 hours ago, emptypockets said:

Good for you. I also had no problems a couple of years ago. See how you go with the new xray machines at Swampy.

I know about the machines, but I don't have anything else to bring into Thailand. I'm done moving stuff.

[bbi1]

9 hours ago, tabarin said:

Going to Thailand with 400 euro a month budget is pure insanity.

I'm sure there are a huge number of grey nomads living in Thailand on that budget. Just take a look at the ones here on this forum who post proudly about how cheaply they live here or who can't afford to legally extend their retirement visa without bribing agents & IOs.

[Max69xl]

13 minutes ago, bbi1 said:

I'm sure there are a huge number of grey nomads living in Thailand on that budget. Just take a look at the ones here on this forum who post proudly about how cheaply they live here or who can't afford to legally extend their retirement visa without bribing agents & IOs.

If they're using agents,then they have more money than €400/month. An agent or an IO cost much more than 1900 baht/year. And don't they pay rent, electrical bills and water? These people are just lying about everything. 

[Beggar]

7 hours ago, glegolo said:

Yes it is, and note also that Thailand do NOT want THAT kind of people coming here. You are welcome because of your money NOT because you are you and your good looks...

I don't believe this because at so many places you are greeted with "Hello sexy man". I never had a similar experience anywhere else. 

[HampiK]

What surprises me is your 400€ budget. You put it that low, because you want safe so much?

 

If you really a work as a software developer you should make at least 100K Baht per month (and even this is a very small amount for a freelance job in IT)! But on the other side it seems that there are a lot of "professional freelancers" with a very good career which earn less than 100K in Thailand!

 

I was a developer/project manager myself. And from my viewpoint with only 100K I not would want work 100% or even more in Thailand. Then I would go back my home-country and make about 300-500K without overtime.

I love Thailand and enjoy it. But not want to work here for let's say 25% or less what I could make at home!

 

I have friends (Thai) who work in this job and I see how many hours they work.

 

If you want do this because you want try out working in another country working and enjoy life a little for maybe 1 year and then go back and use this as a good time and experience. Then yes I think it's nice and you can remember it for your lifetime.

But think again about your Budget

[fourpack]

A. First thing to learn Never come on here as mention working on a tourist visa as you will have already seen the over whelming response of "you need a work permit".

Keep what you intend to do inside your head and keep your head down and just do it.

B. So 13400bht roughly a month

Can be done however you will need to find cheap Thai style accomodation loads around for 3 to 5k a month bht.

Eating easy plenty of vendors everywhere you look.

But you will need internet of course unless you drag your desk top into a cafe lol.

But it can be done. Lazing about on a beach spending only what you need.

But of course others will say different.

 

[glegolo]

37 minutes ago, Beggar said:

I don't believe this because at so many places you are greeted with "Hello sexy man". I never had a similar experience anywhere else. 

Hmm you have a good true point there...

 

glegolo

[Myran]

12 hours ago, moldresistant said:

Not from what I read on this thread:

 

According to Thai labor law, the definition of work is "exerting effort" and "employing knowledge", "whether or not for wages or other benefits", and is based on the individual, not employment as in some other countries. ... It covers both employment and consulting.

That's the old definition, it has changed since. I don't have it at hand, but I'm sure you can find it if you're interested.

[LivinLOS]

11 hours ago, Max69xl said:

He won't work for anyone in Thailand,and won't make any money, and there's no benefits what so ever. 

All of which is irrelevant.. Blogging or vlogging, or other affiliate marketing, without any Thai clients, has clearly been established as requiring one multiple times. 

[BertM]

1 hour ago, Beggar said:

I don't believe this because at so many places you are greeted with "Hello sexy man". I never had a similar experience anywhere else. 

You are correct in that most Thais are very friendly & courteous especially when first greeting you. I have been greeted with the same "welcome" or as you say "sexy man" many times. But, in general, once the ladies figure out that someone isn't going to spend any money, then that friendliness kind of goes away. And, who can blame them. Why should they waste time on someone who isn't going to spend money. I have seen it and have been told by many Thais what they think of the cheap Charlies (like my 65 yr old friend) who acts like he has plenty of money and acts in an uppity manner, but doesn't spend money. Thais can sense arrogance. So, it all depends on how you treat people as to how they treat you... I for one, am a very generous and kind person, so I don't get the feeling that any Thais are talking bad about me behind my back like they do about my uppity friend.

Edited November 6, 2019 by BertM

[JWRC]

You may like to rethink about Chiang Mai, worst air pollution in Thailand with many ending up with serious health problems and hospitalization.

 

Secondly CM is quite expensive compared to many places.

 

Thirdly if you are going to cook for yourself, a lot of your favourite goods from your part of the world will be imported and very expensive compared to Thai food.

 

Fourthly, your Euro works out just over 13,000 THB a month and even cheap Charlies wouldn't be able to live on this

 

Mission Impossible

[donnacha]

2 hours ago, HampiK said:

If you really a work as a software developer you should make at least 100K Baht per month (and even this is a very small amount for a freelance job in IT)! But on the other side it seems that there are a lot of "professional freelancers" with a very good career which earn less than 100K in Thailand!

I understand you that you are just estimating, but those figures can't be right.

100K per month works out at around €100 per day. That's peanuts.

At the most basic level, with no coding ability at all, people are earning a minimum of USD $15 per hour online doing bottom-of-the-barrel work such as teaching English via Skype to Chinese kids. That works out to roughly €110 per 8-hour day, €550 if you work 5 days, and roughly €2,250 per month. That's 75,000 baht for a normal working week, with no overtime, doing work that pretty much any idiot can do with no skills, no experience, and no qualifications.

The next level up is providing services such as support for an online company. Starting rate for that would be around USD $20 or €22.50 per hour, but it can ramp up quickly once you master the system you are supporting. Good support staff are hard to find and they will pay to keep you once they know you're good.

The next level up is mastering a basic freelance skill, such as making logos, basic video editing, making basic WordPress sites, low-level copy-writing etc. If you are not making €40 an hour, something is very wrong.

The next level up is a coder who has mastered even a small niche. It doesn't have to be advanced stuff, being able to hack existing WordPress plugins will provide plenty of work. At that point, you should really be making around €70 per hour.

Now, if you actually have real skills, such as being a good video editor, a good coder, a good podcaster editor, a good SEO guy, or a good writer, there is no question that you should be earning at least €100 per hour, and that naturally rises as your reputation spreads and as your output speeds increases.

Of course, I'm not saying that everyone would choose to work 40 hours per week, or that every type of work you do will increase at the same rate. I am a good coder but, as it happens, I can earn a lot more per hour writing, and I find it more pleasant. I work 4 hours each morning, six days a week, and that earns me around the same per year as a full-time primary care physician in the US.

I am personally aware of hundreds of men and  women, dotted all over S.E. Asia, quietly beavering away at exactly the same type of work, earning the same money or more. All are also pouring large dollops of that cash into the local economies of the places where they live. They certainly create a lot of work for people in those countries, despite not having work permits themselves.

One observation we all agree on is that we all have more offers of work than we could ever possibly take on. Forget the idea that there is any scarcity of work in this world: if you develop a skill and can reliably deliver projects on time, you will never be short of work. What is shocking is that so many people seem to be happier moaning about money than actually doing something about it.

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by donnacha

[bkkcanuck8]

14 hours ago, moldresistant said:

According to Thai labor law, the definition of work is "exerting effort" and "employing knowledge", "whether or not for wages or other benefits", and is based on the individual, not employment as in some other countries. ... It covers both employment and consulting.

The law is written to be all encompassing so that there is no technicalities etc.   Basically getting out of bed in the morning would be covered by the definition, or reading email etc.  What really matters is what the immigration/government chose to enforce.  

If

1. You are not doing something that requires you to be physically in Thailand (i.e. shipping etc.)

2. You are not employing Thai labour for anything other than something like home renovations.

3. Any funds that you receive for your labour does not come from a company that has a presence in Thailand and does not do business in Thailand.

Then you will not be seen as taking work from locals and the immigration department has (up until now) chosen not to enforce it as work. 

 

If you are not resident anywhere (other than your home country) and try to earn money tax-free... and this comes to the country you are from -- they will in all likelihood be deemed as resident there still for tax purposes and you will be on the hook for taxes and possibly in trouble for tax evasion.

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by bkkcanuck8

[donnacha]

26 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

If you are not resident anywhere (other than your home country) and try to earn money tax-free... and this comes to the country you are from -- they will in all likelihood be deemed as resident there still for tax purposes and you will be on the hook for taxes and possibly in trouble for tax evasion.

I don't know about Canada, but that is not the case for most countries. You are quite entitled to receive money into a bank account in any country as a non-resident, you simply change your postal address.

As long as you are, indeed, outside the country for the requisite number of days each year, it is hard for that country's government to claim you as a resident for tax purposes, and they are unlikely to waste time trying unless truly significant amounts and pumping through your bank account.

You are correct that it may be necessary to be tax resident somewhere. That is easy enough, just go and get a tax number, you do not need to be officially recognized as a legal resident by that country.

Incidentally, many countries, including Thailand, do not tax money earned abroad. That, along with the draconian European VAT rules for online businesses, is why so many digital workers set up in Asia.

Obviously, none of this applies to Americans, those poor bastards are on the hook no matter where they escape to.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by donnacha

[bkkcanuck8]

6 minutes ago, donnacha said:

I don't know about Canada, but that is not the case for most countries. You are quite entitled to receive money into a bank account in any country as a non-resident, you simply change your postal address. As long as you are, indeed, outside the country for the requisite number of days each year, it is hard for that country's government to claim you as a resident for tax purposes.

If you actually live in Thailand, perhaps returning home for just a few weeks or a month each year, it is entirely valid to claim Thailand as your tax residence. That is not tax evasion.

If you need to provide a tax number from another country, go and get a tax number. It is not difficult. Incidentally, many countries, including Thailand, do not tax money earned abroad. That, along with the draconian European VAT rules for online businesses, is why so many digital workers set up in Asia.

Obviously, none of this applies to Americans, those poor bastards are on the hook no matter where they escape to.

 

 

You have to sever ties to your home country, and the assumption is that you become resident (for tax purposes) in another country.  If you reside here on things like tourist visas, you are not resident here and thus the country will and can deem that you did not become a non-resident lawfully.

[ThomasThBKK]

9 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

You have to sever ties to your home country, and the assumption is that you become resident (for tax purposes) in another country.  If you reside here on things like tourist visas, you are not resident here and thus the country will and can deem that you did not become a non-resident lawfully.

 

I only know the german example but yeah it's basically:

 

- Give up your apartment/rent contract or if you own it then rent it out but don't live there yourself anymore at all (if rented out make sure to still fill out taxes on the income generated - this is called beeing restricted tax resident in germany as you still have ties to the german economy)

- leave the country for more than half the year and be sure you can actually proof that (hotel registrations, flights, stamps in your passport)

- deregister your address at the local city and tell them you move overseas

- cancel all running contracts like mobile phone etc, it's fine to keep your bank accounts tho, but give them your new address overseas

- make sure the majority of your income is not from german clients/customers as you could still be considered having ties to germany

- get a tax id where you live the majority of the year, it's further proof to you are tax resident in another country

- Visa types don't matter, time spend in a country does so make sure you can proof that. (could be different in other countries).

 

 

These half assed efforts don't work, if someone wants to break up ties with their old country you pretty much have to give up everything there, understandably.

[Beggar]

10 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

You have to sever ties to your home country, and the assumption is that you become resident (for tax purposes) in another country.  If you reside here on things like tourist visas, you are not resident here and thus the country will and can deem that you did not become a non-resident lawfully.

This depends pretty much on the tax laws of the country. In very many countries it is like this - if you don't stay there longer than a certain amount of days a year you don't have to pay taxes. In some countries you don't have to pay taxes for income earned outside the country. In some countries you have to pay taxes on your worldwide income. You don't have all these problems if you are a citizen of the United States. You will always know where you have to pay taxes... 

[chrisinth]

15 hours ago, Sebast said:

I will be working on my project not even generating money anyways.

Serious question, why do so many people need to class themselves as 'digital nomads' for things like this?

 

For sure get advice on accommodation and the like, but once you have your answers, get your internet package sorted out and crack on. Be careful who you talk to about what you are doing and enjoy your stay in Thailand. Unless you spout off on social media and until the Thai authorities get the manpower, hardware & software, nobody is going to know what you are doing online.

 

The article you pasted is old (still giving mention to single, double & triple entry tourist visas) and the author is giving his interpretation on what the police actually said at that meeting. The message that was given can be read in different ways.

[donnacha]

2 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

You have to sever ties to your home country, and the assumption is that you become resident (for tax purposes) in another country. 

My post was not as clear as it should have been and I had edited it just before your reply.

Again, I'm not sure about Canada, but the severing of ties in the UK simply involves sending a letter to the taxman and making sure that any outstanding monies owed are paid. You are not required to say where you are going or to provide a tax number or any other proof that you are tax resident elsewhere.
 

 

7 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

If you reside here on things like tourist visas, you are not resident here and thus the country will and can deem that you did not become a non-resident lawfully.

Again, not sure about Canada, but that seems to be a stretch. Legal residence is not the same as tax residence. I have never heard of a country that is not happy to give you a tax number (as opposed to a social security number), regardless of your residence status.

For example, retirees in Thailand are not legal residents, they are simply here on a series of visa extensions, but they can still be tax resident. I have never heard of any home country (apart from the US) challenging that.

I think where people get caught out is if they do actually spend a substantial amount of time in their home country and it is clear that they are working around the rules. In that case, the government could use other evidence, such as property, to push the argument that your main locus of activity remains there, but they are unlikely to try that if it is clear that you only ever return on vacation.

 

I would, of course, be very interested to hear of any cases of guys in Thailand on retirement or the Elite visa getting reclaimed by their home countries.

 

[donnacha]

9 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

I only know the german example

That's horrifying, particularly as the rest of Europe is likely to soon adopt the German rules under the rubric of "tax harmonization". I am aware that Spain, too, is already very aggressive in the pursuit of their tax livestock.

The old English Common Law view that a man had the right to leave a tax jurisdiction will soon be history, and Europeans will have as little freedom as Americans have today.

 

 

[dimitriv]

47 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

You have to sever ties to your home country, and the assumption is that you become resident (for tax purposes) in another country.  If you reside here on things like tourist visas, you are not resident here and thus the country will and can deem that you did not become a non-resident lawfully.

 

These are things which are different for different countries. Some countries are more strict than others.

 

Usually you are a tax resident in the country where you spend most of your time. If you are able to stay more than 180 days in Thailand on a tourist visa you are a tax resident in Thailand. It doesn't matter what kind of visa you have. Thai law doesn't mention specific visa. My home country uses the same criteria for deciding where you are a (tax) resident.

 

 

 

 

[malibukid]

would recommend Vietnam.  Thailand is for old guys with money

[Tayaout]

7 minutes ago, malibukid said:

would recommend Vietnam.  Thailand is for old guys with money

No its for anyone with money (elite visa). 

[HampiK]

1 hour ago, donnacha said:

I understand you that you are just estimating, but those figures can't be right.

100K per month works out at around €100 per day. That's peanuts.

At the most basic level, with no coding ability at all, people are earning a minimum of USD $15 per hour online doing bottom-of-the-barrel work such as teaching English via Skype to Chinese kids. That works out to roughly €110 per 8-hour day, €550 if you work 5 days, and roughly €2,250 per month. That's 75,000 baht for a normal working week, with no overtime, doing work that pretty much any idiot can do with no skills, no experience, and no qualifications.

The next level up is providing services such as support for an online company. Starting rate for that would be around USD $20 or €22.50 per hour, but it can ramp up quickly once you master the system you are supporting. Good support staff are hard to find and they will pay to keep you once they know you're good.

The next level up is mastering a basic freelance skill, such as making logos, basic video editing, making basic WordPress sites, low-level copy-writing etc. If you are not making €40 an hour, something is very wrong.

The next level up is a coder who has mastered even a small niche. It doesn't have to be advanced stuff, being able to hack existing WordPress plugins will provide plenty of work. At that point, you should really be making around €70 per hour.

Now, if you actually have real skills, such as being a good video editor, a good coder, a good podcaster editor, a good SEO guy, or a good writer, there is no question that you should be earning at least €100 per hour, and that naturally rises as your reputation spreads and as your output speeds increases.

Of course, I'm not saying that everyone would choose to work 40 hours per week, or that every type of work you do will increase at the same rate. I am a good coder but, as it happens, I can earn a lot more per hour writing, and I find it more pleasant. I work 4 hours each morning, six days a week, and that earns me around the same per year as a full-time primary care physician in the US.

I am personally aware of hundreds of men and  women, dotted all over S.E. Asia, quietly beavering away at exactly the same type of work, earning the same money or more. All are also pouring large dollops of that cash into the local economies of the places where they live. They certainly create a lot of work for people in those countries, despite not having work permits themselves.

One observation we all agree on is that we all have more offers of work than we could ever possibly take on. Forget the idea that there is any scarcity of work in this world: if you develop a skill and can reliably deliver projects on time, you will never be short of work. What is shocking is that so many people seem to be happier moaning about money than actually doing something about it.

I agree with you what people should earn!

 

But I saw a lot of and heared a lot of people who not even come close to the 100K per month! Maybe because they not have enough customers or they give dumping prices. And I know about 4 person who I am sure they not earn that much, even they always say how good their working is.

So no, I not make up this numbers. But of course there are also some which make good money.

But I guess that are not the people who stay around in the co-working places and brag about how much money they do!

And this example of the OP also not sounds like he makes a lot of money! this is only a guess!!!

[Arkady]

The definition of work is very broad.  If they know you are in Thailand working for a foreign company, they are entitled to consider you as woking and needing a WP, although some Immigration or Labour offices may interpret things otherwise. As far as  the Revenue Dept is concerned any income you receive from working or providing services while physically in Thailand is most certainly taxable. It doesn't matter whether the work was done for a Thai or foreign company or whether payment was made onshore or offshore. I was once made to pay tax based on the number of days I had been in Thailand over the previous year despite not having an office in Thailand at the time. That was an unusual case and they are unlikely to go after most digital nomads but they could if they wanted to.

 

[dluek]

Not going to comment on budget and visa issues as others have covered that well.

 

BUT, on the subject of good locations for digital nomads, I'd personally opt for Krabi over Chiang Mai, and I'll share my experiences having priced out rooms there over the past year (still have a residence in Bangkok so have yet to make the move permanent, but Krabi is already like my second home).

 

In Krabi province there are several different places where you could live... To start, in Krabi town you can rent a basic room w/ no kitchen in a shophouse for as little as 2,000 baht per month not including utilities. Then there are the beaches. Many long-term rentals available near Ao Nang in the 6,000 to 10,000 baht range, for ex. near Ao Nammao or in Khlong Haeng near Haad Nopparat Thara. Place I usually stay in Khlong Haeng is a small apartment without kitchen, but with fridge etc. and plenty of space, for 8,000 baht a month.

 

Then, between Khlong Haeng and Khlong Muang (or in the latter itself), I've checked out large air-con bungalows that go for 6,000 baht per month. The one I nearly rented had a small kitchen space; all that would have been needed is a 1,000 baht hot plate for cooking. 

 

Ko Lanta has its own decent long-term options, although there you pay a bit more for an apartment and the internet tends to be slower. I prefer the mainland. 

 

And Krabi province is absolutely beautiful, with many good beaches and easy access to countless islands. The area is home to many expats with plenty of fun nightlife and a relaxing, easygoing vibe. I spent 7 years traveling Thailand on a professional basis, covering all parts of the country, and IMO, Krabi is where it's at for long-term life based on freelance desk work. (Although Ko Chang, Ko Phangan, Chumphon and Prachuap are all fine options that I've considered as well.) 

[Tayaout]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

The definition of work is very broad.  If they know you are in Thailand working for a foreign company, they are entitled to consider you as woking and needing a WP, although some Immigration or Labour offices may interpret things otherwise. As far as  the Revenue Dept is concerned any income you receive from working or providing services while physically in Thailand is most certainly taxable. It doesn't matter whether the work was done for a Thai or foreign company or whether payment was made onshore or offshore. I was once made to pay tax based on the number of days I had been in Thailand over the previous year despite not having an office in Thailand at the time. That was an unusual case and they are unlikely to go after most digital nomads but they could if they wanted to.

 

You don't pay income tax in Thailand if the foreign revenue is not rapatriated the same year. 

 

[Unify]

Stay away from Chiang Mai during the burning season.

[LivinLOS]

1 minute ago, Tayaout said:

You don't pay income tax in Thailand if the foreign revenue is not rapatriated the same year. 

 

Partly true.. 

 

You do not pay tax in income that is generated in a previous year and repatriated into Thailand in a later year.. This is then savings accred from non domestic sourced income.. That is correct. 

 

However for work performed while physically in the kingdom, as defined by a physical presence test, then that is domestic income no matter its source. Which is precisely why they use work permits to control all work performed while physically in the kingdom. 

 

 

[Parsve]

Hi, I have lived for six years in Thailand as a digital nomad and have never had any problem, but than of course I have not told the immigration where I get money from or who pay it. The thing is to "live under the radar". That is work from home, do not tell anyone that you are working, and if you do, say that you work in a domain where very few Thais could work, for instance a domain that need both perfect France and English, very few unemployed Thais would manage that and then the immigration not bother. About your budget I think it is a little to low and you have to understand that it has been harder and harder to live as an expat in Thailand since 2014.

 

Where to live, your choice, but as every where else, internet connection is better in citys than in the rural areas, and you will neve find a place here that has better internet connection than France. You have to understand that Thailand still is recon as a undevelopment country, even if that could be hard to understand if you are living in a big city. You also have to understand that Thailand is a very corrupt country. What was yes today could very well be no tomorrow if you not pay. After living here for six years, I would not say to anyone to come here even for a short trip of 14 days, but that is my personally opinion.