School Expulsion for Vaping

[revup]

My Son (15) faces expulsion from his school for vaping. He was previously suspended (2 months ago) for 2 weeks for the same offense and maintains that he is innocent this time. A classmate reported him but my sons account is that while four of his friends were vaping in the classroom, he and one other did not participate. The Principal is vague about when this event took place, with himself and two teachers giving different days for the offense. They produce no evidence for what happened, except to say that an unnamed student reported it. Apparently there is a statement by the unknown student but I am not allowed to see it. I feel that the school should investigate by asking the group of boys individually what happened and who was vaping, but this had not happened at the time his expulsion was announced.

I feel there has been no due process, that the accusation by an unknown witness has not been cross examined and statements from relevant witnesses have not been taken. Expulsion is the most serious disciplinary action that a school can take, it is inappropriate for this offense will have a dramatic impact on my sons ability to keep up with his studies.

The school claim that there was no vaping going on before he joined this semester and conclude that the number of students who vape is somehow my sons responsibility. I feel that vaping has really taken off among kids in Thailand during the past 12 months and that his arrival at the school simply coincided with a growing national trend. Consequently, expulsion is unwarranted and is not justified by the facts.

Thoughts? possible actions to take? As a parent I appear to have no voice in this series of events and do not know where to turn.

It is all happening at 9 am tomorrow morning (Friday 15 Nov).

Edited November 14, 2019 by revup
fix typos

[bkk6060]

Sounds like you are making excuses and not making your son take responsibility for his inappropriate actions.

He was busted before so what you think?

 

[blackcab]

Is your son at a private/international school or a government school?

[AlexRich]

I doubt there is much you can do about it, as your son is deemed guilty by association. And going forward you might want to guide him on who he is hanging out with.

 

A couple of weeks suspension won't make much difference to his schooling, just try to ensure that he covers what he has missed. He just needs to keep his nose clean going forward. Sometimes things appear important that over the course of a lifetime are a mere blip. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

 

 

 

 

[impulse]

8 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

I doubt there is much you can do about it, as your son is deemed guilty by association. And going forward you might want to guide him on who he is hanging out with.

 

A couple of weeks suspension won't make much difference to his schooling, just try to ensure that he covers what he has missed. He just needs to keep his nose clean going forward. Sometimes things appear important that over the course of a lifetime are a mere blip. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

 

Suspension was for last time.  This time, it's expulsion...

 

[Puchaiyank]

Tough situation to be in...time your son learns there can be severe consequences for repeated violations...

 

Go to plan B for your son's continued education...he is likely marked as damaged goods in that school now...

 

Don't blame school administrators for coming down hard on your son...they have hundreds...if not thousands watching to see if they cave on their discipline policy...????

[revup]

5 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Sounds like you are making excuses and not making your son take responsibility for his inappropriate actions.

He was busted before so what you think?

 

That may be so. My point is that expulsion is a massive over reaction to something that is very common among students today. He was guilty last time but blameless this time. The school made their minds up and announced the decision based on the says of a single student and without further investigation.

Edited November 15, 2019 by revup
typos

[revup]

5 hours ago, blackcab said:

Is your son at a private/international school or a government school?

An international school in Ramkhamheng.

[revup]

4 hours ago, AlexRich said:

I doubt there is much you can do about it, as your son is deemed guilty by association. And going forward you might want to guide him on who he is hanging out with.

 

A couple of weeks suspension won't make much difference to his schooling, just try to ensure that he covers what he has missed. He just needs to keep his nose clean going forward. Sometimes things appear important that over the course of a lifetime are a mere blip. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

 

 

 

 

I agree 100 percent. However, they are expelling, not excluding him.

[revup]

3 hours ago, Puchaiyank said:

Tough situation to be in...time your son learns there can be severe consequences for repeated violations...

 

Go to plan B for your son's continued education...he is likely marked as damaged goods in that school now...

 

Don't blame school administrators for coming down hard on your son...they have hundreds...if not thousands watching to see if they cave on their discipline policy...????

Yes, he will grow out of it, I just feel there has been a single violation of a policy and he is being used as example. On the upside, they want to refund the semesters fees (300,000 k). Plan B is private tutoring followed by a GED equivalency test to get him through high school. Come university, school results are history anyhow.

[revup]

4 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Suspension was for last time.  This time, it's expulsion...

 

Problem is that there are five witnesses who confirm that he did not vape. So there there is only the first time. However, the school is not using witness statements.

Edited November 15, 2019 by revup

[blackcab]

1 hour ago, revup said:

...the school is not using witness statements.

 

This is because it is a school, not an investigative body such as the police. I think you are expecting too much if you believe there should be an investigation based on high standards of evidence. To be fair, most people wouldn't expect that from a real police investigation.

 

I would imagine you are quite disappointed and probably quite angry. I certainly would be in this situation.

 

As I am sure you are aware, the main problem will be applying to other schools/universities in the future. Many will ask about permanent  exclusions, and if you fudge the answer and they find out then they will will probably withdraw their offer.

 

As a typical example, Bangkok Patana asks, "Has your child ever been suspended or permanently excluded from a previous school?" and, "If yes, please provide details".

 

You need to clarify with his former school exactly what statements they will include in any package they provide any future school.

 

If asked, the best course of action would be to have your son own his mistake and explain he has learned his lesson and changed his ways. Saying, "I vaped in school; I made a mistake which I am sorry for. At the time I did not understand the implications of what I did" is one thing.

 

Saying the teachers were unreasonable is another, and it really won't get him very far.

 

Best of luck for you and your son.

[impulse]

2 hours ago, revup said:

7 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Suspension was for last time.  This time, it's expulsion...

 

Problem is that there are five witnesses who confirm that he did not vape. So there there is only the first time. However, the school is not using witness statements.

 

I'm not passing judgment on whether he did it or not.  Just that the punishment is expulsion, which is a lot more serious than a suspension.

 

If I were to pass any judgment it would be the OP's expectation that there will be "due process" and other niceties we count on in the west.  Eastern philosophy puts a lot more value on the collective than on the individual.

 

[ColeBOzbourne]

Has your son had other disciplinary problems at the school beyond the two incidents of vaping? Is he a good student and hard worker with good grades, good attendance records, and a good reputation among the staff and administration? Is it possible there has been more trouble and it is now all catching up to him? Or is he a good student getting an overly harsh punishment for a mere (alleged) second offense?

[revup]

4 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

This is because it is a school, not an investigative body such as the police. I think you are expecting too much if you believe there should be an investigation based on high standards of evidence. To be fair, most people wouldn't expect that from a real police investigation.

 

I would imagine you are quite disappointed and probably quite angry. I certainly would be in this situation.

 

As I am sure you are aware, the main problem will be applying to other schools/universities in the future. Many will ask about permanent  exclusions, and if you fudge the answer and they find out then they will will probably withdraw their offer.

 

As a typical example, Bangkok Patana asks, "Has your child ever been suspended or permanently excluded from a previous school?" and, "If yes, please provide details".

 

You need to clarify with his former school exactly what statements they will include in any package they provide any future school.

 

If asked, the best course of action would be to have your son own his mistake and explain he has learned his lesson and changed his ways. Saying, "I vaped in school; I made a mistake which I am sorry for. At the time I did not understand the implications of what I did" is one thing.

 

Saying the teachers were unreasonable is another, and it really won't get him very far.

 

Best of luck for you and your son.

Good answer. He had the meeting this morning and he is out. I wanted to see the evidence they say they collected. This time they played a game. They said I could see the evidence, and if it (the statements) showed him to innocent, then he could stay at the school. But if it showed him as guilty, then he would be expelled with bad record and the consequences you describe. However, If we withdrew, they would not expel, so no bad record and they would refund the years fees to us. 300k.

[revup]

1 hour ago, ColeBOzbourne said:

Has your son had other disciplinary problems at the school beyond the two incidents of vaping? Is he a good student and hard worker with good grades, good attendance records, and a good reputation among the staff and administration? Is it possible there has been more trouble and it is now all catching up to him? Or is he a good student getting an overly harsh punishment for a mere (alleged) second offense?

He is academically strong with top grades in most classes. Has only been there one semester. He is often late and to day they inform me they did not "like the way he dresses".

Edited November 15, 2019 by revup

[blackcab]

5 hours ago, revup said:

He is academically strong with top grades in most classes. Has only been there one semester. He is often late and to day they inform me they did not "like the way he dresses".

 

Round peg square hole. Better off out of there from the sound of it. If it wasn't this it would be something else.

 

Does he speak Thai? I ask because Patana gives the highest priority for entry to students who, '...by virtue of their previous education experience, have no choice but to attend an English-speaking international school."

 

In years 12 and 13 they teach International Baccalaureate (IB), which is the right age for your son.

 

Here is a recent advert from Patana:

 

[bfc1980]

At the end day, what your son did was not only damaging to their health but illegal in this country. The school is right to throw the book at him. He was caught once and was then found out again. He says he didn't do it but do you really believe that? He was in a room with other students who were vaping and he wasn't joining in? He's a kid. If his mates were doing it, he was almost certainly doing it too. Even if he wasn't doing it, he was there. Guilt by association.

 

He obviously didn't take the first exclusion seriously and learn from his mistakes. Hopefully he will now. Stop blaming the school and give your kid the bollocking of a lifetime and move to another school where hopefully he can make new friends who will have a more positive influence on him. 

[JoeW]

Here I thought that vaping was illegal in Thailand...

[Proboscis]

On 11/15/2019 at 2:21 AM, bkk6060 said:

Sounds like you are making excuses and not making your son take responsibility for his inappropriate actions.

He was busted before so what you think?

 

Lets get this straight - you think that the boy should be expelled simply because he was once caught vaping? A very medieval form of justice, don't you think?

[holy cow cm]

On 11/15/2019 at 7:42 AM, revup said:

Problem is that there are five witnesses who confirm that he did not vape. So there there is only the first time. However, the school is not using witness statements.

Tell the school they better have evidence or you will sue them for defamation. 

[bfc1980]

3 hours ago, Proboscis said:

Lets get this straight - you think that the boy should be expelled simply because he was once caught vaping? A very medieval form of justice, don't you think?

No of course not. For getting caught doing something illegal once, he should be excluded (which he was). For getting caught again he should be permanently excluded. Which he is. What the boy now needs to do learn from his mistakes and not vape at his next school. It's the parent's job to make sure this happens. 

 

If the school excluded him again for a couple of weeks, would he learn? Since he didn't the first time, I doubt he would the second time. They have to come down hard on people who carry out illegal activities on school grounds so that others don't think they can get away with it. I'm sure it's difficult pill to swallow as as his parent but IMO the best thing you can do accept the school's decision, let him face the music and learn from this experience. Fighting the school will not help him to learn. 

 

As for the witnesses who said he wasn't doing it. Are these the same kids who were vaping (his mates)? Kudos to them for denying his involvement, but can their word really be trusted? When faced with a mate getting kicked out school for a 2nd time offence, friends will lie to save that person. 

 

[richard_smith237]

11 hours ago, bfc1980 said:

At the end day, what your son did was not only damaging to their health but illegal in this country. The school is right to throw the book at him. He was caught once and was then found out again. He says he didn't do it but do you really believe that? He was in a room with other students who were vaping and he wasn't joining in? He's a kid. If his mates were doing it, he was almost certainly doing it too. Even if he wasn't doing it, he was there. Guilt by association.

 

He obviously didn't take the first exclusion seriously and learn from his mistakes. Hopefully he will now. Stop blaming the school and give your kid the bollocking of a lifetime and move to another school where hopefully he can make new friends who will have a more positive influence on him. 

 

"Guilt by association".... that's a bit of an extreme hardline outlook there... D'you recon they should also Jail the kid as well he's obviously going to grow up into a criminal, right ????

 

With your outlook, how would you feel if one of your friends was caught with a joint in their pocket? are you also guilty by association?

 

Of course, your 'go-to' reply will be, I don't accociate with anyone who would have a joint in their pocket !!! Well, of course not, because hypocritical puritans never break a law or regulation, neither to their friends ever (if they are not so boring to have any)  !!!

Edited November 16, 2019 by blackcab
Bold font removed. Please do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes or wording

[richard_smith237]

4 hours ago, JoeW said:

Here I thought that vaping was illegal in Thailand...

It is, but so is riding a motorcycle without a helmet, riding on the pavement, prostitution, driving without a license, driving while drunk.... etc etc etc...   

 

Legality of anything in Thailand has very little impact in the real world until the police want some money. 

[AlexRich]

On 11/14/2019 at 9:57 PM, impulse said:

 

Suspension was for last time.  This time, it's expulsion...

 

Then a new school, and hopefully lesson learned about who you hang out with? But not the end of the world.

[emptypockets]

Maybe there is more to this than meets the eye. In addition to two vaping incidents there are now further breaches of conduct, frequently late and dress code violations.

The Op says it is the lads first semester at this school. Where was he being educated previously and why did he leave?

I'm not passing judgement as I was no angel at school myself.

Edited November 16, 2019 by emptypockets

[BestB]

1. Your son should NOT be vaping at all, and this is on you

2. Just put 10 000 into an envelope and say you were sorry. If 10 000 is not enough then double it or move your son to another school and get him off vaping

[ben2talk]

On 11/15/2019 at 7:33 AM, revup said:

That may be so. My point is that expulsion is a massive over reaction to something that is very common among students today. He was guilty last time but blameless this time. The school made their minds up and announced the decision based on the says of a single student and without further investigation.

I don't think it IS an over-reaction. 

Vaping shouldn't be considered a recreation, it should be considered as serious harm reduction for ex-smokers.

However, the status of 'ex-smoker' is not acceptable for anyone too young to buy tobacco...

 

For a great many adult smokers and ex-smokers, vaping is a saving grace and I think they should all feel angry to hear MORE news about teenagers vaping.

[seajae]

do you as his father vape, if not have to wonder where he got the gear seeing it is illegal here & just because it is popular doesnt mean it is ok to do it. He should have taken his first time caught as a warning but has obviously ignored it, I know when I went to school it was one warning then out so it hasnt changed all that much and back then it didnt involve breaking the countries laws either, he was aware he was doing the wrong thing, should have said no. I take it all the others were also reprimanded/kicked out of school too if it was after a first time warning, as I mentioned do you know who supplied the gear this time as well as the first time, was it your son.  A good friends son was expelled in Australia after he was found to have given his mate some weed, no warning just kicked out of school so this isnt a harsh punishment  for what he did, it also sounds (from you last report of what happened) that they didnt expel him as such and had you with draw him so he wont have the expelled mark against him at least, hopefully now he has learnt his lesson and you as a father have laid down some rules you expect him to follow so it doesnt happen again, good luck with it

[orchis]

11 hours ago, Proboscis said:

Lets get this straight - you think that the boy should be expelled simply because he was once caught vaping? A very medieval form of justice, don't you think?

no, read carefully: first time was suspension, second time expulsion.