Trump pardons Army officers, restores Navy SEAL's rank in war crimes cases

[Tug]

When is trump going to offer this guy a cabinet position lol imo this is a mistake it’s just an amoral president pandering to his base I doubt he has feelings one way or the other it’s merely a ploy for votes

[Chelseafan]

6 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I suggest you spend some time reading up on how the civil liberties of people in America where won and the hell civilians went through to win their liberty.

 

Alternatively feel free to continue in your ignorance.

 

I am well versed thank-you.

 

My point was that these so-called "American civil liberty groups" have probably never been to war, never seen the atrocities, have never faced life and death decisions in the heat of battle, have never suffered from PTSD, have never been in a position where they would give up their life for their country yet are very quick to come out with a soundbite.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Chelseafan

[Chelseafan]

6 hours ago, bristolboy said:

So you have respect for the soldiers  who reported him in the first place?

Yep.

[Dumbastheycome]

9 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

Yep.

So you defend the outcome of  a pardon  which restores  rank and priviledges of on the basis of the  whole  gambit of trauma of  warfare at the  same time as recognizing the  correctness of those  who testified in the also correct outcome  of prosecutions  for  war  crimes?

So  anything is  justifiable in terms of  war? Bear in mind the  fact  that all of these crimes were  committed in conflicts  which were territorial invasions  and  not  declared  war  zones . So  by your  reasoning there is  no  claim of  terrorism by any  party  of conflict anywhere  or  anytime.

Open  season if  you  have the  means? Mindless Might  is  right?

The  NRA should   give you a  Medal !

 

[Chelseafan]

2 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

So you defend the outcome of  a pardon  which restores  rank and priviledges of on the basis of the  whole  gambit of trauma of  warfare at the  same time as recognizing the  correctness of those  who testified in the also correct outcome  of prosecutions  for  war  crimes?

So  anything is  justifiable in terms of  war? Bear in mind the  fact  that all of these crimes were  committed in conflicts  which were territorial invasions  and  not  declared  war  zones . So  by your  reasoning there is  no  claim of  terrorism by any  party  of conflict anywhere  or  anytime.

Open  season if  you  have the  means? Mindless Might  is  right?

The  NRA should   give you a  Medal !

 

Wow, easy there tiger, that's a whole lotta putting words into my mouth

 

Was what they did wrong ? Of course.

Did those who testify do the right thing ? Of course. The truth should always prevail.

But...Refer to post #33

 

 

 

[BestB]

13 hours ago, rooster59 said:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump on Friday pardoned two Army officers accused of war crimes in Afghanistan and restored the rank of a Navy SEAL platoon commander who was demoted for actions in Iraq, a move critics have said would undermine military justice and send a message that battlefield atrocities will be tolerated.

A move that will get Trump votes from all serving man and women and their families and friends and everyone else related one way or another

[BestB]

4 hours ago, rhyddid said:

Once again US pardon sadist maniacs who slaughter and torture innocents just for the pleasure to do it.

Well done US and more people around the globe will hate you.

Justice is justice but it can not be achieved if the Head of State his a criminal by himself !

Who are the people around the globe? Western world does not care, Muslim world and Arab lovers can not hate America anymore than they already do.

 

So who is going to start hating or hate more?

[spidermike007]

13 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Another foreign policy coup for Trump. First he decides to go back into Syria in order, according to his own stated reason to protect the oil. Then he proposes awarding it to Exxon which would be illegal. And of course, that is going to ingratiate the US even more in the Mideast. Now he absolves soldiers who committed war crimes in the Mideast.

That is just what he does, and how he operates. If it is morally wrong he will do it. If it is the right thing to do, he would never consider it. If it helps a criminal or a despot leader he will do it. If it comes to assisting an honorable person, or a trusted ally, he will betray them, every time. Just the M.O. of Don Donald. Always count on him to do the wrong thing. 

 

In terms of Exxon, he has never once said no to a lobbyist, since he has been in office. He is bought and paid for by corporate America. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by spidermike007

[sunnyboy2018]

Oliver North got away with large scale drug dealing

[Langsuan Man]

13 hours ago, Tug said:

When is trump going to offer this guy a cabinet position lol imo this is a mistake it’s just an amoral president pandering to his base I doubt he has feelings one way or the other it’s merely a ploy for votes

If it were merely pandering to his base I really couldn't care, they are hopeless anyway

 

It is the negative hit his action is going to have on the military justice system is the real problem.  If commanders now have to fear that the system can be perverted for political gains there goes order and discipline

 

Unfortunately, order and discipline,  are two qualities that Trump has shown over and over again that he is incapable of understanding 

[mtls2005]

12 hours ago, Chelseafan said:

My point was that these so-called "American civil liberty groups" have probably never been to war,

 

What do "American civil liberty groups" have to do with anything?

 

These chaps, save Slatten (who was a Blackwater contractor), were tried in military courts.

 

Gallagher, a special operations chief, is accused of stabbing a prisoner to death, posing for a photo next to a corpse, shooting at noncombatants and intimidating SEALs who could report his behavior. He has pleaded not guilty to all charges. If convicted of murder, he faces life in prison.

 

Re: Slatten... Nisour Square massacre...

 

In December 2008, the U.S. charged five Blackwater guards with 14 counts of manslaughter, 20 counts of attempted manslaughter and a weapons violation

 

 

 

 

[unblocktheplanet]

We trust Trump's next pardons will include Chelsea Manning & Edward Snowden for disclosing US war crimes in the first place!

[newatthis]

11 hours ago, BestB said:

A move that will get Trump votes from all serving man and women and their families and friends and everyone else related one way or another

Not necessarily. There are many serving men and women, like those who gave evidence, who believe in the military code of conduct which Trump has just torn up for his own political purposes. If you don't have this code of conduct, there is lawlessness and disorder which robs the armed services of its effectiveness.

[JAG]

On 11/16/2019 at 10:40 AM, Chelseafan said:

I have the utmost respect for those who protect our values and our freedom, what these people go through must be hell.

Perhaps we should put the American Civil Liberties Union on the front line for a few months rather than letting them rant from behind their desks safe and sound.

 

 

Whilst I have sympathy with the view that those  (including the American Civil Liberties Union) acting as pressure groups for these prosecutions should have a greater understanding of the stress and pressure undergone whilst in battle -the same point could be made about the BBC Panorama and The Sunday Times "investigations" made public today into allegations against British Servicemen. It should be born in mind that these men were all convicted by Courts Martial, on evidence offered by other soldiers. Courts Martial are staffed by a panel of officers, acting as judges. These officers are drawn from serving personnel. They will have complete understanding of the stress and pressure undergone whilst in battle. They are advised but not directed by a legal professional employed/serving in the forces. The court follows very strict rules on procedure and evidence. The accused will have defending officers, and if they wish, qualified civilian defence lawyers. Persons convicted by Court martial have full rights to appeal.Sentences are reviewed and confirmed by senior officers, in a case like this by very senior officers. They are far from being summary justice, in fact they are a very fair system!

 

These men were all convicted for actions which were in contravention of the Laws of Armed Conflict. All servicemen are taught those laws, in fact in the British Army all soldiers are tested annually on the LoAC. I should imagine that the US forces have a similar system. Certainly, as holders of rank and command, these three individuals would have been taught and examined on LoAC as part of their professional training. They were properly convicted by a proper legal process. Some of the evidence I have read about ( in particular the prolific random sniping attacks against civilians, including women, children and the elderly), is certainly disturbing.

 

Pardoning them was, may I suggest, simply a cynical political act by a president looking to re-election votes!

Edited November 17, 2019 by JAG

[racket]

On 11/16/2019 at 10:12 AM, rooster59 said:

The American Civil Liberties Union criticized the president's action.

Where were you guys during the Bengazi incident? 

[AlexRich]

Clint Lorance is a war criminal ... not one man in his command stood in his defence. 

[mtls2005]

3 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Clint Lorance is a war criminal ... not one man in his command stood in his defence. 

 

From NYT yesterday...

 

Nine members of Lorance's platoon testified against him. 

 

“War is hard, there is collateral damage. I get that — I’ve got my own stories,” said Staff Sgt. Daniel Williams. “That’s not what this was; this was straight murder.”

[AlexRich]

On 11/16/2019 at 3:40 AM, Chelseafan said:

I have the utmost respect for those who protect our values and our freedom, what these people go through must be hell.

Perhaps we should put the American Civil Liberties Union on the front line for a few months rather than letting them rant from behind their desks safe and sound.

 

 

 

Do you know anything about these men, and their crimes? It takes a psychopath President to release psychopath's in uniform to boost his votes among ill informed morons.

 

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, newatthis said:

Not necessarily. There are many serving men and women, like those who gave evidence, who believe in the military code of conduct which Trump has just torn up for his own political purposes. If you don't have this code of conduct, there is lawlessness and disorder which robs the armed services of its effectiveness.

Many military men and women from pretty much all countries believe in a military code of conduct with acceptable / unacceptable actions and behaviors because they want the same straight rules applied in all militaries.  

[Mick501]

20 hours ago, scorecard said:

"Soldiers can not be given carte blanche, but must be judged on the lenient side when their silicon chips go haywire."

 

And of course you would offer the same leniency to enemy soldiers who kill yanks in battle etc.  

Yep.  Same leniency.  But could you please point me towards the evidence of these opposition forces that have been charged by their own side with committing atrocities?

[JAG]

35 minutes ago, Mick501 said:

Yep.  Same leniency.  But could you please point me towards the evidence of these opposition forces that have been charged by their own side with committing atrocities?

Using "the other side did it too" was debunked as an argument in defence of committing war crimes a long time ago - at Nuremberg in 1946 - when the fact that the Soviet Union was not a signatory to the various protocols collectively known as the "Geneva Convention" was dismissed as justification for the German activities in the fighting on the Eastern Front. If you don't follow the various Laws of Armed Conflict then you lay yourself open to accusations of being nothing more than a killer. It is actually a fundamental of the way a professional military force conducts itself. Perhaps it is not fair? Well warfare certainly isn't.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Mick501 said:

Yep.  Same leniency.  But could you please point me towards the evidence of these opposition forces that have been charged by their own side with committing atrocities?

Whataboutism?

 

If they commit atrocities then it’s okay for us to do likewise?

[ballpoint]

If, when fighting a barbaric enemy in defence of your own civilisation and ideals, you stoop to, or excuse those who stoop to, the level of that enemy, then you have lost the battle, as your civilisation and ideals have already become tarnished.

[Bruntoid]

On 11/16/2019 at 10:40 AM, Chelseafan said:

I have the utmost respect for those who protect our values and our freedom, what these people go through must be hell.

Perhaps we should put the American Civil Liberties Union on the front line for a few months rather than letting them rant from behind their desks safe and sound.

 

 

Whos ‘values and freedoms’ include posing for pics with dead corpses ? 

[Mick501]

5 hours ago, JAG said:

Using "the other side did it too" was debunked as an argument in defence of committing war crimes a long time ago - at Nuremberg in 1946 - when the fact that the Soviet Union was not a signatory to the various protocols collectively known as the "Geneva Convention" was dismissed as justification for the German activities in the fighting on the Eastern Front. If you don't follow the various Laws of Armed Conflict then you lay yourself open to accusations of being nothing more than a killer. It is actually a fundamental of the way a professional military force conducts itself. Perhaps it is not fair? Well warfare certainly isn't.

Agreed.  But irrelevant to my post, which was a follow on from a previous post.

[Mick501]

5 hours ago, AlexRich said:

Whataboutism?

 

If they commit atrocities then it’s okay for us to do likewise?

That wasn't the point.  Maybe best to read the earlier posts to help with context.

[bristolboy]

On 11/17/2019 at 2:12 PM, Mick501 said:

Yep.  Same leniency.  But could you please point me towards the evidence of these opposition forces that have been charged by their own side with committing atrocities?

And why is that relevant? You think US armed forces should follow that standard set by Isis?

Edited November 18, 2019 by bristolboy

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts have been removed. 

[Mick501]

4 hours ago, bristolboy said:

And why is that relevant? You think US armed forces should follow that standard set by Isis?

Chill pill dude.   Read the earlier posts for context.