Thai Junta Chief Calls For Emergency Rule In Bangkok

[John K]

Here is a point for debate but not in this thread. If you consider people like Nostradamus, his predictions were vague thus became easier to see them and interpret them in events.

The Finland issue was much more specific and many of the elements were seen and matched with events. It becomes difficult to say as things were cut short by the coup, but now are they starting up again by the same players? Look at the petition signed by 2000 people and look at the elements of Finland. Is it coincidence or part of the plan. The people that signed the petition are like pawns in a chess game, they can be sacrificed to achieve the goal.

[ColPyat]

Or do you think the whole story was completely made up from he start?

Yes, i believe that it was completely made up. There is no shred of evidence that verifies this outlandish conspiracy theory of a meeting in Finland planning to topple the monarchy, and should be treated in par with alien abductions and the flat earth society.

In addition to Sondhi, Thaksin sued two senators and two academics and a dozen of journalists who published the story in various newspapers in installements over about a week.

"Even though Thaksin and his aides took a vacation in Finland in 1997, only a gang of shysters could twist the holiday into a smear," the spokesman said."

I believe "the spokesman" here is Chatuporn [of PTV!!!], but it could have been Colpyat, or at least you are taking that role now.

Nice, instead of any evidence or proof which could verify the Finland idiocy you support your position with another personal attack against me.

[Plus]

Colpyat, we have two senators, two academics, and a dozen of journalists against your word which is based on what?

You haven't been there, what makes you think your word should count for anything?

Blaze, the initial story wasn't written by Sondhi, he simply picked it up (and Colpyat went for his throat, for simply propagating it).

[blaze]

Colpyat, we have two senators, two academics, and a dozen of journalists against your word which is based on what?

You haven't been there, what makes you think your word should count for anything?

Blaze, the initial story wasn't written by Sondhi, he simply picked it up (and Colpyat went for his throat, for simply propagating it).

I didn't say the initial story was written by Sondhi. (It was, I think, written by Pramote Nakhonthap) But that it was originally published in "Manager" and that series became the sole source for allegations later made by the academics etc you refer to.

Or did they find further evidence to support the claim that this meeting with this agenda had in fact occurred?

From the Nation (which I think you'ld agree can hardly be called pro-TRT, May 25, 06:

"The actual existence of the so-called Finland Plot is questionable. Sondhi, Chai-anan and Pramote said yesterday they do not have firsthand evidence of its existence and only received the information second-hand from a TRT worker who defected a few weeks ago."

Edited April 3, 2007 by blaze

[ColPyat]

Colpyat, we have two senators, two academics, and a dozen of journalists against your word which is based on what?

You haven't been there, what makes you think your word should count for anything?

Blaze, the initial story wasn't written by Sondhi, he simply picked it up (and Colpyat went for his throat, for simply propagating it).

Where is the evidence? I need more than second hand reports based on one unnamed source, especially something so outlandishly illogical such as this Finland Declaration.

And yes, Sondhi is responsible for what is published in the medias he owns. This was nothing else than a cheap ploy trying to stir emotions up at a already very charged time by fabricating a royal angle that simply was not existing.

And it appears that even otherwise intelligent people do switch their brains off when this subject is mentioned, and forget to apply any reason and logic. And now the urban myth is still floating around, and used as a justification to support completely undemocratic over-reactions by the military junta when asking for emergency rule when faced with political opposition.

This is sickening.

[John K]

Getting off topic guys, this is a good thread don’t kill it.

[Plus]

"The actual existence of the so-called Finland Plot is questionable. Sondhi, Chai-anan and Pramote said yesterday they do not have firsthand evidence of its existence and only received the information second-hand from a TRT worker who defected a few weeks ago."

Thanks for the quote, Blaze. So there was a trip to Finland and something was discussed there. Chai-anan (who was once convicted for lese majeste himself), Pramote, senator Chrimsak Pingtong and pretty much everyone else thought that information supplied by the ex-TRT man generally fit in what transpired since 1997.

The plot, in fact, outlines possible choices for the country's future direction and the future role of monarchy. Something even the royalists occasionally contemplate, even if they reject Thaksin's solution.

Sooner or later the day will come when they country will have to decide what to do next. Then people who now decry "Finland plot" as a "made up", "sickening fantasy" and "idiocy" will pick it up, dust it off, and present its ideas as their own.

[ColPyat]

"The actual existence of the so-called Finland Plot is questionable. Sondhi, Chai-anan and Pramote said yesterday they do not have firsthand evidence of its existence and only received the information second-hand from a TRT worker who defected a few weeks ago."

Thanks for the quote, Blaze. So there was a trip to Finland and something was discussed there. Chai-anan (who was once convicted for lese majeste himself), Pramote, senator Chrimsak Pingtong and pretty much everyone else thought that information supplied by the ex-TRT man generally fit in what transpired since 1997.

The plot, in fact, outlines possible choices for the country's future direction and the future role of monarchy. Something even the royalists occasionally contemplate, even if they reject Thaksin's solution.

And here you have left reality and moved into fantasy land. Stop speculating, please, and come up with hard evidence.

Sooner or later the day will come when they country will have to decide what to do next. Then people who now decry "Finland plot" as a "made up", "sickening fantasy" and "idiocy" will pick it up, dust it off, and present its ideas as their own.

Thanks again for misquoting me.

What my own ideas are about that issue does not stand to debate here. As you should know, any discussion on the monarchy and its future role is against board rules. Don't please attempt to bait me into breaking forum rules.

[bingobongo]

30% raise? what have they accomplished

what special assignment? helping destroy democracy and run a police state?

these guys aren't going away, why would they give up the gravy train

Pay rise for CNS staff

Assistant government spokesman Natthawat Suthiyodhin said Cabinet approved the proposal from the CNS secretary-general, who sought a 30 per cent pay rise for 423 military and security officials.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=30031006

[ColPyat]

30% raise? what have they accomplished

what special assignment? helping destroy democracy and run a police state?

these guys aren't going away, why would they give up the gravy train

Pay rise for CNS staff

Assistant government spokesman Natthawat Suthiyodhin said Cabinet approved the proposal from the CNS secretary-general, who sought a 30 per cent pay rise for 423 military and security officials.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=30031006

Lovely. What about the many soldiers and cops who work in the high danger zones of the South and the northern borders?

While the CNS and cronies give themselves a pay rise, often the afore mentioned officers go for months without food allowance and have to eat what they can gather.

[blaze]

30% raise? what have they accomplished

what special assignment? helping destroy democracy and run a police state?

these guys aren't going away, why would they give up the gravy train

Pay rise for CNS staff

Assistant government spokesman Natthawat Suthiyodhin said Cabinet approved the proposal from the CNS secretary-general, who sought a 30 per cent pay rise for 423 military and security officials.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=30031006

'Cheques and balances' restored

Edited April 3, 2007 by blaze

[Jai Dee]

Gen. Sonthi urges agencies to stop linking political subjects with the royal institution

The Commander in Chief of the Army and Chairman of the Council for National Security (CNS) Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkrin (สนธิ บุญยรัตกลิน) requests all agencies to stop linking political matters with the royal institution.

Gen. Sonthi has assigned officials to study laws to file a lawsuit against groups attempting to withdraw Gen. Prem Tinnasulanont (เปรม ติณสูลานนท์) from his position of Privy Councilor and Statesman.

Gen. Sonthi also affirms that the postponing of the Ending Corruption in Thailand fair expected to be presided by Gen. Prem is not related to the news claiming about possible ambush attack of Gen. Prem.

As for the date to revoke the 15th and 27th CNS announcement, Gen. Sonthi says it depends on the national situation.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 04 April 2007

[Jai Dee]

CNS Chairman affirms wage increase for CNS staff normal procedure

The Chairman of the Council for National Security (CNS) affirmed that wage increase for civil servants assigned to the Office of the Secretary General of the Council for National Security (CNS) would be considered through normal procedures.

The Commander in Chief of the Army and Chairman of the Council for National Security (CNS), Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkrin, reported that wage increases for civil servants assigned to duty at the Office of Office of the Secretary General of the Council for National Security (CNS) was a matter of morale boosting and was part of normal work procedures.

The CNS Chairman affirmed that the 8 members of the Council for National Security (CNS) have never received special stipends in excess of their normal salary. Gen Sonthi added that wage increases for 423 civil servants under the Office of Office of the Secretary General of the Council for National Security (CNS) would be based on work performance, therefore some officials may not receive a wage increase.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 04 April 2007

[Plus]

I just watched a documentary about Iraqi elections in 2005. It followed a doctor who was running for city council or something.

His wife said a couple of things I found relevant to Thailand.

On boycotting elections: "If we participate in this "great" Iraqi elections, we cannot complaing later on because, you know, we "voted".

Replying to her husband (I'm the head of this family, I know what is best for the country's interests):

"What country? You lost you country long time ago. Saddam destroyed it and you just sat there and watched and now it's gone, lost."

In that last quote substitute country for democracy, Saddam for Thaksin, and American invasion for the coup, and you have a fair description of what happened in Thailand.

[blaze]

I just watched a documentary about Iraqi elections in 2005. It followed a doctor who was running for city council or something.

His wife said a couple of things I found relevant to Thailand.

On boycotting elections: "If we participate in this "great" Iraqi elections, we cannot complaing later on because, you know, we "voted".

Replying to her husband (I'm the head of this family, I know what is best for the country's interests):

"What country? You lost you country long time ago. Saddam destroyed it and you just sat there and watched and now it's gone, lost."

In that last quote substitute country for democracy, Saddam for Thaksin, and American invasion for the coup, and you have a fair description of what happened in Thailand.

I hope not.

Just about every Iraqi I have heard interviewed has said that things in Iraq are immeasureably worse now than under Saddam.

[ColPyat]

In that last quote substitute country for democracy, Saddam for Thaksin, and American invasion for the coup, and you have a fair description of what happened in Thailand.

Comparing Saddham with Thaksin is ridiculous. I don't think that Saddham was ever elected to the office.

And comparing the coup with the US invasion Irak is ironic, especially coming from you. But you are right - the US invasion just like the coup here in Thailand was initiated by a elitist group of powerful individuals by presenting fake evidence, and just like the invasion into Irak, things got even worse after.

Very good, Plus, you start learning.

[Plus]

I don't think that Saddham was ever elected to the office.

OH HE WAS, MANY TIMES!!!

>>>>>>>

Blaze, lots of Thais also think that Thailand is now worse off than under Thaksin, but, like Iraqis, they also realise that Saddam is history (he was still alive in 2005).

American occupation of Iraq is nothing like junta's rule here but in both cases people are trying to learn how to live with it and beyond.

The woman just told the "democracy activists" that it's too late to cry as the country (or democracy) was lost long time ago and they did nothing to protect it then.

There was also lots of other good stuff in the movie (My country My country) - Abu Graib, international monitors, private security firms etc etc.

I just thought it's interesting that no one in the family had an answer to those words from a woman, who btw wore parka all through the movie. In the end it was her husband who gave up and it was her who persuaded him to stay on.

[blaze]

I don't think that Saddham was ever elected to the office.

OH HE WAS, MANY TIMES!!!

>>>>>>>

Are you sure- you aren't referring to the two national referendums which saw him win 97 and 100 percent of the vote are you? The question on those referendums was something like: Should Saddam stay on as president? Or would you prefer to be slung up on a meat hook for a spell? (Ok- the last question was not part of the referendum- though observers at the time felt it was implied).

[Plus]

Yes, I meant those but I don't know if they were called referendums. BBC covered them as elections, however laughable.

More important is that Saddam didn't come to power by force through a bloody coup or something, he came to power by rising through his party ranks, was elected by his party executives, and kept being elected ever since.

No one in Thailand voted for Thaksin either - his name was never on any ballot list. He was elected to PM-ship by the majority of MPs, not by the people. Techinically TRT could have voted Purachai or anyone else for a Premier.

[ColPyat]

Yes, I meant those but I don't know if they were called referendums. BBC covered them as elections, however laughable.

More important is that Saddam didn't come to power by force through a bloody coup or something, he came to power by rising through his party ranks, was elected by his party executives, and kept being elected ever since.

No one in Thailand voted for Thaksin either - his name was never on any ballot list. He was elected to PM-ship by the majority of MPs, not by the people. Techinically TRT could have voted Purachai or anyone else for a Premier.

Really?

According to Pasuk Phongpaichit and Chris Baker - 'After Thaksin’s avalanche', Far Eastern Economic Review, 168, 3, March 2005, http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~ppasuk...nsavalanche.pdf , you are wrong there:

Quote:

"Even among those who voted for a non-TRT candidate in their constituency, many chose Thaksin and TRT on the party list (a vote by party which decides the allocation of 100 seats). The result is both a big mandate and a big personal mandate."

[John K]

Authorities close in on Prem's foes

Critics keep up heat with ouster petition

POST REPORTERS

Both the coup leader and the national police chief stepped up efforts yesterday to try and silence outspoken critics of Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanonda. The police and military measures are being centred on the anti-coup group the Saturday Voice, which has incensed the Privy Council president and his supporters by trying to gather 100,000 signatures to petition His Majesty the King to remove him from the post.

Council for National Security (CNS) chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin said yesterday that legal experts had been ordered to investigate any legal violations regarding negative references towards the Privy Council president. If violations were found, legal action would immediately be taken by police, Gen Sonthi said.

The CNS order came amid growing unease with coup-critics and political activists who are continuing to target Gen Prem, accusing the former prime minister of interfering in politics. Some of those involved in the criticisms against Gen Prem are alleged to have connections with deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

As the CNS was exploring ways to silence the privy council president's detractors, police were undertaking their own attempts yesterday to try and end the public criticisms of the elderly statesman.

Police have been searching through the www.saturdaynews.org website, which promotes the Saturday Voice group.

Acting national police chief Pol Gen Seripisuth Temiyavej said he had checked the website that was inviting people to sign an online petition for Gen Prem's removal and found that its content was clearly defamatory.

Gen Prem was considered the damaged party and could authorise someone to file charges against the website on his behalf, the acting police chief said.

''That is considered a legal violation. I have ordered the legal division to gather as much evidence as possible from the website including details of the webmaster and those who gave their names to support the petition,'' Pol Gen Seripisuth said.

A source close to Gen Prem said yesterday that he was extremely upset at both the actions against him and the government and the CNS for letting the movements continue.

According to the source, Gen Prem felt that the move to gather signatures to petition for his dismissal as president of the Privy Council was too aggressive. He has already had close aides examine the people behind the Saturday Voice group that planned the petition and believes people associated with People's Television (PTV) could be involved in the Saturday Voice movement, the source said.

PTV was set up by former members of the Thai Rak Thai party founded by Mr Thaksin.

Gen Prem had already signalled for Gen Sonthi to take decisive action, the source added.

But Saturday Voice representatives, speaking at a press conference yesterday, insisted they would continue with their plan to collect the signatures.

Wiputhalaeng Patanaputhai, a member of the group, said Gen Prem should not have a hand in politics and thus should resign to show responsibility. He called for the public as well as Mr Thaksin to financially support his group's attempts to restore democracy.

But Vice-Admiral Pachun Tampratheep, Gen Prem's secretary, argued that the Privy Council president had nothing to do with the Sept 19 coup and never sought protection from any party because he had done nothing wrong.

The moves to clamp down on Saturday Voice were welcomed by the Chart Thai party. Party leader Banharn Silpa-archa urged Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont to take direct action against any moves directed against Gen Prem. He said it was clear who was behind the movements, and that they continued because the government and the CNS were too indecisive.

[ColPyat]

Gen Prem had already signalled for Gen Sonthi to take decisive action, the source added.

Doesn't that statement somewhat prove the point of the opponents that Prem might interfere in political affairs?

[John K]

Taking into account that this is only Thursday and we have seen what I can only describe as winding up for some decisive moves. Thanks to the new law that does not wait for a complain from a hesitant minister or party, the Junta looks to make use of this to clean up.

This effectively bypasses the PM’s passive approach. It is too early to see how this will fly in the gain or lose face department with the PM, but it does signal that the next rally may have a significant military presence in the wings ready to invite the people who attend to some private discussions and perhaps a prolonged visit at military or other overnight facilities about their intention towards HRH. I think this is where guilt by association may kick in.

A very interesting weekend is ahead.

[hammered]

Authorities close in on Prem's foes

Critics keep up heat with ouster petition

POST REPORTERS

Both the coup leader and the national police chief stepped up efforts yesterday to try and silence outspoken critics of Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanonda. The police and military measures are being centred on the anti-coup group the Saturday Voice, which has incensed the Privy Council president and his supporters by trying to gather 100,000 signatures to petition His Majesty the King to remove him from the post.

Council for National Security (CNS) chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin said yesterday that legal experts had been ordered to investigate any legal violations regarding negative references towards the Privy Council president. If violations were found, legal action would immediately be taken by police, Gen Sonthi said.

The CNS order came amid growing unease with coup-critics and political activists who are continuing to target Gen Prem, accusing the former prime minister of interfering in politics. Some of those involved in the criticisms against Gen Prem are alleged to have connections with deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

As the CNS was exploring ways to silence the privy council president's detractors, police were undertaking their own attempts yesterday to try and end the public criticisms of the elderly statesman.

Police have been searching through the www.saturdaynews.org website, which promotes the Saturday Voice group.

Acting national police chief Pol Gen Seripisuth Temiyavej said he had checked the website that was inviting people to sign an online petition for Gen Prem's removal and found that its content was clearly defamatory.

Gen Prem was considered the damaged party and could authorise someone to file charges against the website on his behalf, the acting police chief said.

''That is considered a legal violation. I have ordered the legal division to gather as much evidence as possible from the website including details of the webmaster and those who gave their names to support the petition,'' Pol Gen Seripisuth said.

A source close to Gen Prem said yesterday that he was extremely upset at both the actions against him and the government and the CNS for letting the movements continue.

According to the source, Gen Prem felt that the move to gather signatures to petition for his dismissal as president of the Privy Council was too aggressive. He has already had close aides examine the people behind the Saturday Voice group that planned the petition and believes people associated with People's Television (PTV) could be involved in the Saturday Voice movement, the source said.

PTV was set up by former members of the Thai Rak Thai party founded by Mr Thaksin.

Gen Prem had already signalled for Gen Sonthi to take decisive action, the source added.

But Saturday Voice representatives, speaking at a press conference yesterday, insisted they would continue with their plan to collect the signatures.

Wiputhalaeng Patanaputhai, a member of the group, said Gen Prem should not have a hand in politics and thus should resign to show responsibility. He called for the public as well as Mr Thaksin to financially support his group's attempts to restore democracy.

But Vice-Admiral Pachun Tampratheep, Gen Prem's secretary, argued that the Privy Council president had nothing to do with the Sept 19 coup and never sought protection from any party because he had done nothing wrong.

The moves to clamp down on Saturday Voice were welcomed by the Chart Thai party. Party leader Banharn Silpa-archa urged Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont to take direct action against any moves directed against Gen Prem. He said it was clear who was behind the movements, and that they continued because the government and the CNS were too indecisive.

So Wiputhalaeng admits Mr. Thaksin finances his group, and still wants the public to finance his group as well!

Interesting to watch Mr. Banharn try to position himself. He must be desperate to become PM again.

[sriracha john]

Even as an American with limited prior knowledge of how a Parliamentary system of government works, I understood this aspect of the Thai government.

Edited April 5, 2007 by sriracha john

[Wolfie]

I've removed posts with flames/insults/attacks on other member, please keep this civilized gentlemen. Thanks!

[blaze]

Authorities close in on Prem's foes

Critics keep up heat with ouster petition

POST REPORTERS

Both the coup leader and the national police chief stepped up efforts yesterday to try and silence outspoken critics of Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanonda. The police and military measures are being centred on the anti-coup group the Saturday Voice, which has incensed the Privy Council president and his supporters by trying to gather 100,000 signatures to petition His Majesty the King to remove him from the post.

Council for National Security (CNS) chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin said yesterday that legal experts had been ordered to investigate any legal violations regarding negative references towards the Privy Council president. If violations were found, legal action would immediately be taken by police, Gen Sonthi said.

The CNS order came amid growing unease with coup-critics and political activists who are continuing to target Gen Prem, accusing the former prime minister of interfering in politics. Some of those involved in the criticisms against Gen Prem are alleged to have connections with deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

As the CNS was exploring ways to silence the privy council president's detractors, police were undertaking their own attempts yesterday to try and end the public criticisms of the elderly statesman.

Police have been searching through the www.saturdaynews.org website, which promotes the Saturday Voice group.

Acting national police chief Pol Gen Seripisuth Temiyavej said he had checked the website that was inviting people to sign an online petition for Gen Prem's removal and found that its content was clearly defamatory.

Gen Prem was considered the damaged party and could authorise someone to file charges against the website on his behalf, the acting police chief said.

''That is considered a legal violation. I have ordered the legal division to gather as much evidence as possible from the website including details of the webmaster and those who gave their names to support the petition,'' Pol Gen Seripisuth said.

A source close to Gen Prem said yesterday that he was extremely upset at both the actions against him and the government and the CNS for letting the movements continue.

According to the source, Gen Prem felt that the move to gather signatures to petition for his dismissal as president of the Privy Council was too aggressive. He has already had close aides examine the people behind the Saturday Voice group that planned the petition and believes people associated with People's Television (PTV) could be involved in the Saturday Voice movement, the source said.

PTV was set up by former members of the Thai Rak Thai party founded by Mr Thaksin.

Gen Prem had already signalled for Gen Sonthi to take decisive action, the source added.

But Saturday Voice representatives, speaking at a press conference yesterday, insisted they would continue with their plan to collect the signatures.

Wiputhalaeng Patanaputhai, a member of the group, said Gen Prem should not have a hand in politics and thus should resign to show responsibility. He called for the public as well as Mr Thaksin to financially support his group's attempts to restore democracy.

But Vice-Admiral Pachun Tampratheep, Gen Prem's secretary, argued that the Privy Council president had nothing to do with the Sept 19 coup and never sought protection from any party because he had done nothing wrong.

The moves to clamp down on Saturday Voice were welcomed by the Chart Thai party. Party leader Banharn Silpa-archa urged Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont to take direct action against any moves directed against Gen Prem. He said it was clear who was behind the movements, and that they continued because the government and the CNS were too indecisive.

So Wiputhalaeng admits Mr. Thaksin finances his group, and still wants the public to finance his group as well!

Interesting to watch Mr. Banharn try to position himself. He must be desperate to become PM again.

I would interpret W's request to Mr. T as indicative of the fact that Thaksin does NOT finance the group- though his contributions- like those of any one who wishes to pony up- would be more than welcome.

Part of that old- the enemy of my enemy is my friend- for the moment. The same game that Banharn might be playing.

[Tony Clifton]

I would interpret Saturday Voice's Wiputhalaeng's request to Mr. T as indicative of the fact that Thaksin DOES finance the group. The usual 180 degree turn by Thaksin is being used here.

Saturday Voice... That name rang a bell.

Saturday, voice...

Thaksin's voice, Saturdays, his morning radio show.

They miss that?

[blaze]

I would interpret Saturday Voice's Wiputhalaeng's request to Mr. T as indicative of the fact that Thaksin DOES finance the group. The usual 180 degree turn by Thaksin is being used here.

Saturday Voice... That name rang a bell.

Saturday, voice...

Thaksin's voice, Saturdays, his morning radio show.

They miss that?

So if I ask you for money, the mere act of my requesting would show that prior to my request, you had already given me money? Interesting logic.

But the Saturday Voice thing--- hmmm. Maybe you're on to something there.

[hammered]

I would interpret Saturday Voice's Wiputhalaeng's request to Mr. T as indicative of the fact that Thaksin DOES finance the group. The usual 180 degree turn by Thaksin is being used here.

Saturday Voice... That name rang a bell.

Saturday, voice...

Thaksin's voice, Saturdays, his morning radio show.

They miss that?

So if I ask you for money, the mere act of my requesting would show that prior to my request, you had already given me money? Interesting logic.

But the Saturday Voice thing--- hmmm. Maybe you're on to something there.

On the money thing. it depends how you read it (in English).

He called for the public and Mr T to both now provide money, or he called on the public to now provide money as Mr. T already did. The sentence in English can actually be read both ways looking at it again. I guess we should go for the actual Thai original to clarify this. No point having a diference of meaning over what is already an interpretation.