Maintaining a presence in home country when working abroad...

[marf]

I wish to spend an extended time period of perhaps a year to several years travelling and working abroad before returning to the UK. I realise that not being resident and working in the UK for a long time can affect entitlement to health treatment and no contributions to state pension. Additionally, many banks will close your accounts if you do not have a UK address.

 

What steps are recommended to maintain a regular presence, or at least the appearance of one, whilst working abroad, with the intention of returning to the UK at a later date. Even if things change and I stay abroad, it would be nice to have some elements of a pension when I eventually retire.

 

I can change my address to have my mail delivered to friends. Can I pay additional National Insurance? Must be people running their own businesses/contractors who are not on PAYE. How to pay? How much is required?

 

Anything else that's recommended?

Edited November 19, 2019 by marf

[sunnyboy2018]

I kept my address and had my post redirected. The details of any important letters copied into WhatsApp and i reply to them via friend who puts them in an english envelope with stamp. Dont worry about NI stamps..

you can lose five years. You do not lose right to NHS treatment but will need an address to have a GP. Dont tell your doc you are away...they only check after 5 years. Dont worry. I have travelled for the last 20 years plus and still.haveva UK presence.

[marf]

43 minutes ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

Dont worry about NI stamps... you can lose five years.

I am not sure... I may have a sketchy NI history in the past with a lot of only part time work for about six years or so directly after university...

[mokwit]

3 hours ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

Dont worry. I have travelled for the last 20 years plus and still.haveva UK presence.

Same here, but in the the next 20 years this is going to be harder to do IMO e.g banks will be able to profile you much better and will notice patterns of debit card use that are out of line with someone living in the UK etc.

[steve187]

3 hours ago, marf said:

I am not sure... I may have a sketchy NI history in the past with a lot of only part time work for about six years or so directly after university...

either pay a voluntary stamp class 3 £16 a week, or go self employed class 2 at under £3.00 a week, but class 2 may stop in the near future

[Mike Teavee]

44 minutes ago, steve187 said:

either pay a voluntary stamp class 3 £16 a week, or go self employed class 2 at under £3.00 a week, but class 2 may stop in the near future

You are (or at least were) treated as self employed when working overseas so pay class 2.

 

I thought I'd read somewhere that this had stopped from April 2018 and I would begin to be charged at Class 3, but so far still seem to be being charged for Class 2

  

You can also top-up the previous 6 years contributions so if you do get to pay Class 2 you might as well, but please note it's debatable whether catching up on anything before April 2016 is worth it as they changed the calculations then & seem to have baselined people so anything before then may or may not count (I'm still trying to work out as I caught up 2010-2016 so now have 36 years and they're still telling me I'm 5 years short).

  

[topt]

10 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I caught up 2010-2016 so now have 36 years and they're still telling me I'm 5 years short).

Depends when you caught up as they calculate which system (old/new(current) your contributions gave you the most pension at April 2016.

But it is complicated by reductions if you were contracted out at any time. I had 33 but need another 8 for example due to contracting out.

[sunnyboy2018]

On 11/19/2019 at 8:22 PM, marf said:

I am not sure... I may have a sketchy NI history in the past with a lot of only part time work for about six years or so directly after university...

You can pay a backlog of 7 years if you wish. One reason for signing on the dole is to get your stamps paid. How many years you have paid by the age of 67 will determine the size of your pension. You need 35 years for a full pension.

[Moonlover]

23 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

You are (or at least were) treated as self employed when working overseas so pay class 2.

Where did you get that from? I worked abroad for nearly 20 years and paid class 3 (voluntary) contributions. There was no mix up, DWP knew exactly where I was.

[Mike Teavee]

24 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Where did you get that from? I worked abroad for nearly 20 years and paid class 3 (voluntary) contributions. There was no mix up, DWP knew exactly where I was.

From HMRC, I have posted pics of the tables that they sent to me on the UK Pension thread, unfortunately the pics are on my Laptop in Singapore so won't be able to access them until I get back on 4th December.

 

I don't know if it makes a difference that I was posted overseas by the UK Bank I was working for, or if it makes a difference I was working/living in SIngapore (Which has a DTA with the UK but not a reciprocal Social Security agreement).

 

As a matter of interest where were you working whilst you were paying it?

 

 

I did a quick Google to see if I could find anything & came across this... https://app.croneri.co.uk/topics/national-insurance-employees-working-abroad/indepth skip to the Voluntary part.... 

Seconded workers who are not liable to pay Class 1 NICs may pay either voluntary Class 3 NICs or where appropriate Class 2 NICs. Class 2 and 3 contributions are set at a weekly fixed rate, adjusted around the start of each tax year. Class 2 contributions are currently considerably cheaper than Class 3 contributions and also provide a wider range of benefit entitlement. Therefore, where a person wishes to pay voluntary contributions to preserve their UK contribution record, it is advisable to pay Class 2 rather than Class 3 contributions.

 

Edit: Interesting post here 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Mike Teavee

[steve187]

On 11/20/2019 at 7:29 AM, Mike Teavee said:

You are (or at least were) treated as self employed when working overseas so pay class 2.

 

I thought I'd read somewhere that this had stopped from April 2018 and I would begin to be charged at Class 3, but so far still seem to be being charged for Class 2

  

You can also top-up the previous 6 years contributions so if you do get to pay Class 2 you might as well, but please note it's debatable whether catching up on anything before April 2016 is worth it as they changed the calculations then & seem to have baselined people so anything before then may or may not count (I'm still trying to work out as I caught up 2010-2016 so now have 36 years and they're still telling me I'm 5 years short).

  

what is your pension forecast showing

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed.  The OP is seeking information about returning to the UK, not about the USA. 

[DannyCarlton]

On 11/19/2019 at 7:38 PM, sunnyboy2018 said:

I kept my address and had my post redirected. The details of any important letters copied into WhatsApp and i reply to them via friend who puts them in an english envelope with stamp. Dont worry about NI stamps..

you can lose five years. You do not lose right to NHS treatment but will need an address to have a GP. Dont tell your doc you are away...they only check after 5 years. Dont worry. I have travelled for the last 20 years plus and still.haveva UK presence.

I've been in Thailand more than 5 years and my doctor has made no checks on me. I still recieve a regular repeat prescription and return to the UK for an annual health check. The trick is to go dark. My doctor, banks, company pension provider, DWP etc. have no idea that I'm in Thailand.

 

From the get go I have maintained a room in my friends apartment, with all my personal effects in it. The bed is made up and it looks lived in. If an official did a spot check, it would appear lived in by me. The friend would just tell them that I'm away on an extended holiday.

 

My friend opens my mail and forwards anything important to me. He also collects my prescriptions and posts them to me.

 

This costs me nothing as my friend is a regular visitor to Thailand (here next week) and has a room in my house. A reciprocal arrangement.

 

There's nothing to stop you making a similar arrangement with a family member, ex spouse, sibling, offspring etc.

 

I can't give too much advice on NI contributions but will say that the requirement fo a full pension is 35 years contributions. I had more than 40 years contributions on retirement but still was subjected to a small reduction because I'd opted out of SERPS many decades ago. Was told I could make it up with a lump sum contribution (equivalent of one years NI contreibutions, I think) but as I already had 41/35 years contributions, thought it a con and told them to go spin on it.

 

Very easy to check your current lifetime NI contributions on the government website.

[Moonlover]

10 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

From HMRC, I have posted pics of the tables that they sent to me on the UK Pension thread, unfortunately the pics are on my Laptop in Singapore so won't be able to access them until I get back on 4th December.

 

I don't know if it makes a difference that I was posted overseas by the UK Bank I was working for, or if it makes a difference I was working/living in SIngapore (Which has a DTA with the UK but not a reciprocal Social Security agreement).

 

As a matter of interest where were you working whilst you were paying it?

 

 

I did a quick Google to see if I could find anything & came across this... https://app.croneri.co.uk/topics/national-insurance-employees-working-abroad/indepth skip to the Voluntary part.... 

Seconded workers who are not liable to pay Class 1 NICs may pay either voluntary Class 3 NICs or where appropriate Class 2 NICs. Class 2 and 3 contributions are set at a weekly fixed rate, adjusted around the start of each tax year. Class 2 contributions are currently considerably cheaper than Class 3 contributions and also provide a wider range of benefit entitlement. Therefore, where a person wishes to pay voluntary contributions to preserve their UK contribution record, it is advisable to pay Class 2 rather than Class 3 contributions.

 

Edit: Interesting post here 

 

I was working in the middle east, mainly Saudi Arabia. I never researched this back in the day, I simply ran with the advise given during induction by British Aerospace.

 

As I recall, the advise was to pay class 3 NI contributions if you wish to retain full pension rights and to be able fully integrate back into the NI system on return to the UK. Who was I to argue with that?

 

Anyway, I'm glad I did, because they were quite right and as well as having a couple of periods of unemployment during I was awarded NI credits I was also able to claim a full retirement pension.

 

I haven't researched it, as I have no vested interest in doing so, but I wouldn't think that £3 for class 2 as apposed to £15 for class 3 p/w (as it is today) would have bought me all those rights.

 

The O/P @marf should really do his own homework on this. Don't just accept advise from a few forum members. What we knew back in the day, might not apply now.

[sanemax]

On 11/19/2019 at 7:22 PM, marf said:

What steps are recommended to maintain a regular presence, or at least the appearance of one,

Illegal activity , shouldnt be discussed on a public forum 

Poster could be an informant 

[Mike Teavee]

9 minutes ago, steve187 said:

what is your pension forecast showing

£146.96, need to contribute another 5 years to get to the maximum £168.60

[Mike Teavee]

10 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

I was working in the middle east, mainly Saudi Arabia. I never researched this back in the day, I simply ran with the advise given during induction by British Aerospace.

 

As I recall, the advise was to pay class 3 NI contributions if you wish to retain full pension rights and to be able fully integrate back into the NI system on return to the UK. Who was I to argue with that?

 

Anyway, I'm glad I did, because they were quite right and as well as having a couple of periods of unemployment during I was awarded NI credits I was also able to claim a full retirement pension.

 

I haven't researched it, as I have no vested interest in doing so, but I wouldn't think that £3 for class 2 as apposed to £15 for class 3 p/w (as it is today) would have bought me all those rights.

 

The O/P @marf should really do his own homework on this. Don't just accept advise from a few forum members. What we knew back in the day, might not apply now.

Class 2 gives you everything that Class 3 gives in terms of full pension entitlement but I don't know about NI Credits (Would imagine you'd need to be claiming some benefits in UK to get that).

 

Totally agree, OP should call the HMRC helpdesk, I've found them very helpful and will provide current advice not our understanding of some years back (E.g. I was sure they stopped Class2 for OS workers in 2018 but it seems they've deferred it for now, maybe they'll do it next year).

 

 

[sunnyboy2018]

52 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

I've been in Thailand more than 5 years and my doctor has made no checks on me. I still recieve a regular repeat prescription and return to the UK for an annual health check. The trick is to go dark. My doctor, banks, company pension provider, DWP etc. have no idea that I'm in Thailand.

 

From the get go I have maintained a room in my friends apartment, with all my personal effects in it. The bed is made up and it looks lived in. If an official did a spot check, it would appear lived in by me. The friend would just tell them that I'm away on an extended holiday.

 

My friend opens my mail and forwards anything important to me. He also collects my prescriptions and posts them to me.

 

This costs me nothing as my friend is a regular visitor to Thailand (here next week) and has a room in my house. A reciprocal arrangement.

 

There's nothing to stop you making a similar arrangement with a family member, ex spouse, sibling, offspring etc.

 

I can't give too much advice on NI contributions but will say that the requirement fo a full pension is 35 years contributions. I had more than 40 years contributions on retirement but still was subjected to a small reduction because I'd opted out of SERPS many decades ago. Was told I could make it up with a lump sum contribution (equivalent of one years NI contreibutions, I think) but as I already had 41/35 years contributions, thought it a con and told them to go spin on it.

 

Very easy to check your current lifetime NI contributions on the government website.

A medical practice is encouraged to check on patients they have not seen in 5 years. This prevents 'ghost' patients. A practise receives money for each patient on their books so the idea of the five year check is a cost cutting exercise.

[Scouse123]

On 11/20/2019 at 6:40 AM, steve187 said:

either pay a voluntary stamp class 3 £16 a week, or go self employed class 2 at under £3.00 a week, but class 2 may stop in the near future

 

Hi,

 

I am paying class 3 contributions as there is no other way with residing in Thailand. I am also clearing arrears but they only allow me to go back as far as 2006-2007.

 

How many years must you contribute for full pension? I am 57 and have 10 years left and have paid about 20 years.

[steve187]

2 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

 

Hi,

 

I am paying class 3 contributions as there is no other way with residing in Thailand. I am also clearing arrears but they only allow me to go back as far as 2006-2007.

 

How many years must you contribute for full pension? I am 57 and have 10 years left and have paid about 20 years.

30 years

[steve187]

9 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

£146.96, need to contribute another 5 years to get to the maximum £168.60

you only need 30 years now, where some of your years contracted out, ie paying a reduced NI stamp, because you were paying into a company pension.

[chickenslegs]

58 minutes ago, steve187 said:

you only need 30 years now, where some of your years contracted out, ie paying a reduced NI stamp, because you were paying into a company pension.

Are you sure? I thought it went back up to 35 years.

https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/the-state-pension-rules-and-changes-explained

[jimn]

11 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

I've been in Thailand more than 5 years and my doctor has made no checks on me. I still recieve a regular repeat prescription and return to the UK for an annual health check. The trick is to go dark. My doctor, banks, company pension provider, DWP etc. have no idea that I'm in Thailand.

 

From the get go I have maintained a room in my friends apartment, with all my personal effects in it. The bed is made up and it looks lived in. If an official did a spot check, it would appear lived in by me. The friend would just tell them that I'm away on an extended holiday.

 

My friend opens my mail and forwards anything important to me. He also collects my prescriptions and posts them to me.

 

This costs me nothing as my friend is a regular visitor to Thailand (here next week) and has a room in my house. A reciprocal arrangement.

 

There's nothing to stop you making a similar arrangement with a family member, ex spouse, sibling, offspring etc.

 

I can't give too much advice on NI contributions but will say that the requirement fo a full pension is 35 years contributions. I had more than 40 years contributions on retirement but still was subjected to a small reduction because I'd opted out of SERPS many decades ago. Was told I could make it up with a lump sum contribution (equivalent of one years NI contreibutions, I think) but as I already had 41/35 years contributions, thought it a con and told them to go spin on it.

 

Very easy to check your current lifetime NI contributions on the government website.

Very good 100% correct advice. My situation is similar to you but I do go back to the UK for a few months. Dont ever ever tell anyone pension, bank, doctor that you are spending most of the year out of the country. If anyone does because they think its the right thing to do then DONT. You will have your state pension frozen, you could lose your UK bank account and you could lose access to the NHS (doctor and hospital).

[steve187]

44 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

Are you sure? I thought it went back up to 35 years.

https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/the-state-pension-rules-and-changes-explained

sorry your correct 35, 

 

i also posted at post 20 above its 30 years, but it is 35 years now

Edited November 21, 2019 by steve187

[jimn]

4 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

 

Hi,

 

I am paying class 3 contributions as there is no other way with residing in Thailand. I am also clearing arrears but they only allow me to go back as far as 2006-2007.

 

How many years must you contribute for full pension? I am 57 and have 10 years left and have paid about 20 years.

Register for the state pension portol online and check it. Its very easy

[DannyCarlton]

2 hours ago, steve187 said:

30 years

I don't think so. Originally it was either 40 or 42 years, not sure. In the early 2000s the Labour government reduced it to 30 years. When the Conservatives got back into power, they raised it to 35 years.

[VBF]

The OP hasn't stated his age but it MIGHT be worth considering if the NI contributions are still worthwhile for him.

 

Let me explain: 

I worked overseas for several stints in the eighties and nineties and "noughties" and always kept my contributions up to date.

I'm now 64, retired  and I shall get my State pension at 66 NOT 65 as I was always promised. Annoying, but I will still get a good pension albeit a year later than I originally anticipated so keeping my contributions up WAS worthwhile.

 

Now, here's the thing: pension age is slipping all the time; I have "lost" a year but a man now aged 34 (born 1985) won't get it until he's 68

Work it out here https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-age - also see https://www.gov.uk/government/news/proposed-new-timetable-for-state-pension-age-increases 

 

As of today, these figures still make it look worthwhile however, this is apparently "under review" (see the second link) so in the intervening years, the rules might change to push your pension age up even more. Then again they might not but who knows?

 

So it MIGHT be worth considering a private pension INSTEAD of making NI contributions....obviously doing both might be better still.

I'm most definitely not advising you @marf ...just offering food for thought. Good Luck.

Edited November 21, 2019 by VBF

[Scouse123]

4 hours ago, jimn said:

Register for the state pension portol online and check it. Its very easy

 

Yes,

 

Done it thanks, it is 35 years according to the government website.

[marf]

5 hours ago, VBF said:

The OP hasn't stated his age but it MIGHT be worth considering if the NI contributions are still worthwhile for him.

 

Let me explain: 

I worked overseas for several stints in the eighties and nineties and "noughties" and always kept my contributions up to date.

I'm now 64, retired  and I shall get my State pension at 66 NOT 65 as I was always promised. Annoying, but I will still get a good pension albeit a year later than I originally anticipated so keeping my contributions up WAS worthwhile.

 

Now, here's the thing: pension age is slipping all the time; I have "lost" a year but a man now aged 34 (born 1985) won't get it until he's 68

Work it out here https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-age - also see https://www.gov.uk/government/news/proposed-new-timetable-for-state-pension-age-increases 

 

As of today, these figures still make it look worthwhile however, this is apparently "under review" (see the second link) so in the intervening years, the rules might change to push your pension age up even more. Then again they might not but who knows?

 

So it MIGHT be worth considering a private pension INSTEAD of making NI contributions....obviously doing both might be better still.

I'm most definitely not advising you @marf ...just offering food for thought. Good Luck.

In late thirties. But still keeping my options open.

 

Also, how much work and NI contributions count as a year for contributions purposes? Obviously if you work just one week in the year (and don't claim benefits) you won't get it, but surely you don't have to contribute something every single week of the year to count?

 

Mostly have worked hard when needed to and have been above the asset threshold to claim out of work benefits.

[VBF]

4 hours ago, marf said:

In late thirties. But still keeping my options open.

 

Also, how much work and NI contributions count as a year for contributions purposes? Obviously if you work just one week in the year (and don't claim benefits) you won't get it, but surely you don't have to contribute something every single week of the year to count?

 

Mostly have worked hard when needed to and have been above the asset threshold to claim out of work benefits.

I'm not qualified to answer or advise, and, IMO neither are most people on TV. I see you're a relative newbie so be aware that there are many so-called "experts" on here - I don't set myself up as such, hence my advice is as follows:

 

I would suggest that you talk to the DWP who will have your record available, ask THEM those questions and then work out what YOU need to pay in to get your pension.

I have found them to be very helpful - they will certainly be able to send out a Pension forecast, but that will be based on today's legislation  - reread my comments in #27 above.

If you like, as was said above "Register for the state pension portal online and check it. Its very easy" but I prefer to talk to them, make notes AND have them send whatever documents they can. https://www.gov.uk/contact-pension-service

 

FWIW, strictly IMO, I think you're taking the correct approach in finding out your true situation at an age where you have time to make choices - Good Luck.

Edited November 22, 2019 by VBF