Toilet again..

[Pogust]

I have a problem with smell in bathroom that I can't figure out. Have tried everything I can think of. It doesn't smell all the time, but comes for a few days and then it's OK again some days. I found what looked like a crack in the first throne that could allow smell to come through, so took that back to Thaiwatsadu and changed for a new of the same model. That seemed to work for some time, then smell is back.

 

Toilet sealed to the 100mm pipe with original butyl seal, then the whole joint is wrapped in butyl flashing tape. The septic tank is nearby, with a working vent on it. I drilled a small hole in the pipe from toilet to tank just to make sure there is no pressure build up there. The smell seem to coming through the water lock in toilet. I have a small extractor fan in the wet areas, just 15Watts. Enough air coming in the house that there should not be any vacuum.

 

I'm about to change for another brand of toilet, as a last desperate attempt. But it doesn't make sense. Anyone out there with an idea??

 

 

[userabcd]

Is that the septic vent or the waste soil pipe leading to the septic tank? looks to me like the waste soil pipe leading to the septic tank.

 

The vent pipe is usually extended to high above the roof level with a vent cover.

 

Is the wash hand basin in the bathroom also connected to this soil waste pipe and is there a P trap on that?

Edited November 21, 2019 by userabcd

[bbi1]

Same here, in both BKK condos I've stayed in there always comes a bad smell for a few days and then it goes, then comes back etc. Smells like it's the sewerage from the drain pipe. In Pattaya never had that problem. How do people here solve the smell problem coming back up the pipe from the sewerage?

[richard_smith237]

Moved into a new house recently.... The downstairs toilet became blocked after a couple of uses. The Toiled in my Son's bedroom was stinky (without use) - it turns out that 2 of the 4 toilets were installed incorrectly: 

- one was not even aligned to the waste pipe and thus blocked. 

- the other was not sealed to the waste pipe and thus stank.

 

You mentioned that your pipes are correctly sealed - before changing your toilet, have Toilet to down-pipe re-sealed just to be 100% sure. 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Pogust said:

I drilled a small hole in the pipe from toilet to tank just to make sure there is no pressure build up there

The hole you have drilled is far too small to do the job of venting the soil stack. A correct size is virtually the same as the soil pipe itself and as has been mentioned should go to the roof level 

[Pogust]

12 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The hole you have drilled is far too small to do the job of venting the soil stack. A correct size is virtually the same as the soil pipe itself and as has been mentioned should go to the roof level

Yes in a situation with both grey and black water going the same way that is true. However here I have separate greywater and only one toilet going through the septic tank. Standard Thai plumbing.

 

The other 50 mm pipe with a valve seen pipe in picture belongs to the water sprinklers.

[bankruatsteve]

As was the case in a similar thread a few weeks ago, the smell might actually be coming from a drain that is not trapped or the trap has evacuated.  Even with venting, atmospheric changes can bring on the smell but then should not linger for too long.

[userabcd]

The hole in your pipe named ''Septic vent'' is allowing the smell to waft under the house.

 

The septic tank vent looks not far from the house and the smell is also wafting near the house.

 

Typical soil waste vent pipe in the pic. extended to above roof level.

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by userabcd

[sometimewoodworker]

39 minutes ago, Pogust said:

Yes in a situation with both grey and black water going the same way that is true. However here I have separate greywater and only one toilet going through the septic tank. Standard Thai plumbing.

 

The other 50 mm pipe with a valve seen pipe in picture belongs to the water sprinklers.

It makes no difference if the grey and black water have different systems apart from needing 2 vent pipes each one should be approximately the same or ½” smaller than the pipe going into the septic tank.

 

standard Thai plumbing is often = wrong ???? 

Edited November 21, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[Pogust]

Disagree with Woodworker. It makes a huge difference how much air is going through the pipe, and also where the house is. In cold climate we make the vent 100mm up above the roof.

 

2 reasons. First the amount of air going up is much larger due to all water going trough the septic system. If you dump a full bathtub there will be plenty smelly air going out of the system. The second reason is when it gets below zero the moist air will freeze in the top of vent pipe and thus we need a larger diameter to keep it open.

 

None of this is valid in the Tropics. There is around 3 liters going down for every flush in my toilet. That small amount of air escaping the system is very hard to smell unless you stand close to the vent pipe. There is no smell outside from the tank with this small volumes, thus I don't need the vent up the wall or through the roof.

 

I do not have the grey water entering the system after septic tank as is often done here. So no push back of air up backwards from tank.

 

I have the same setup in another house where it works well without any smell. Only difference another brand of toilet...

[Fruit Trader]

Our rent building has a 100mm vented soil stacks that rise up the pipe gallery and out beyond the roof soffit. The main purpose of these vents is to prevent vacuum in the long vertical line.

 

This venting will not prevent smells escaping from poorly fitted toilets. Even a tiny hole or gap in a toilet seal will leak smells as pressure changes within the soil pipe for various reasons. Leaking seals can be fine for days then a pressure change or increased septic tank activity will cause smelly air to escape.

 

On windy days, you can watch the water in toilets move as the wind blows over the soil stack. The same happens when other toilets on the same line release water.

 

A proper seal between toilet and pipe is essential to prevent any stink.

 

Alignment between toilet and pipe in the floor should be good if donut/wax style seals are used. Space between toilet and pipe should allow adequate compression of the seal.

 

The same applies to drains connected to the grey water lines where proper traps and seals prevent smells.

[userabcd]

12 minutes ago, Pogust said:

Disagree with Woodworker. It makes a huge difference how much air is going through the pipe, and also where the house is. In cold climate we make the vent 100mm up above the roof.

 

2 reasons. First the amount of air going up is much larger due to all water going trough the septic system. If you dump a full bathtub there will be plenty smelly air going out of the system. The second reason is when it gets below zero the moist air will freeze in the top of vent pipe and thus we need a larger diameter to keep it open.

 

None of this is valid in the Tropics. There is around 3 liters going down for every flush in my toilet. That small amount of air escaping the system is very hard to smell unless you stand close to the vent pipe. There is no smell outside from the tank with this small volumes, thus I don't need the vent up the wall or through the roof.

 

I do not have the grey water entering the system after septic tank as is often done here. So no push back of air up backwards from tank.

 

I have the same setup in another house where it works well without any smell. Only difference another brand of toilet...

To where in the system does the so called grey water discharge?

[Pogust]

20 minutes ago, userabcd said:

To where in the system does the so called grey water discharge?

Banana circle, where nutrients are recycled back into food. Permaculture principle.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Pogust
wrong URL

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Pogust said:

Disagree with Woodworker. It makes a huge difference how much air is going through the pipe, and also where the house is. In cold climate we make the vent 100mm up above the roof.

 

2 reasons. First the amount of air going up is much larger due to all water going trough the septic system. If you dump a full bathtub there will be plenty smelly air going out of the system. The second reason is when it gets below zero the moist air will freeze in the top of vent pipe and thus we need a larger diameter to keep it open.

 

None of this is valid in the Tropics. There is around 3 liters going down for every flush in my toilet. That small amount of air escaping the system is very hard to smell unless you stand close to the vent pipe. There is no smell outside from the tank with this small volumes, thus I don't need the vent up the wall or through the roof.

 

I do not have the grey water entering the system after septic tank as is often done here. So no push back of air up backwards from tank.

 

I have the same setup in another house where it works well without any smell. Only difference another brand of toilet...

It looks as if you do not understand one of the prime reasons for a vent pipe is to prevent the traps being siphoned out by the fluids (black or grey) leaving down the soil stack, that is unaffected by being in the tropics. 
 

Ice formation is a total red herring.

Edited November 21, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[userabcd]

Do you have floor drains in the room and are they connected to the septic pipeline or grey water pipe?

 

Some floor drains in Thailand (the ones with the small water sump) often dry up and allows the foul odour to permeate back into the room.

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, userabcd said:

To where in the system does the so called grey water discharge?

Lots of recent moobaans have grey water processing plants.

Essentially a bubbling rock tower with an electric pump, then it's good to discharge into the general drainage pipes.

[Pogust]

44 minutes ago, userabcd said:

Do you have floor drains in the room and are they connected to the septic pipeline or grey water pipe?

 

Some floor drains in Thailand (the ones with the small water sump) often dry up and allows the foul odour to permeate back into the room.

To the grey water as I previously explained, only toilet to septic tank. I don't use Thai drains, they don't work. Mr Drain imports good working drains. The smell comes from toilet, nowhere else.

[Pogust]

55 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It looks as if you do not understand one of the prime reasons for a vent pipe is to prevent the traps being siphoned out by the fluids (black or grey) leaving down the soil stack, that is unaffected by being in the tropics. 
 

Ice formation is a total red herring.

That is not the problem here. Plenty of water in the water trap in toilet after flushing. Modern toilets are made to handle that. First a heavy flush, then a smaller trickle to fill the trap again after.

 

Turned off the vent fan in house, no smell anymore. That makes no sense, open windows all the time. And the smell comes from toilet bowl as I stick my nose down to check and make sure.

 

House I have in Europe has forced vent with a small vacuum all the time. Never heard of this kind of problem before...

[Ron jeremy]

Simple, incorrect plumbing, no vent, Thais simply do not know proper plumbing venting practices.

a picture of proper venting has been posted, too late now unless you wish to cut into the drain and run a vent above the roof. A siphon will occur from  discharge of other fixtures, because of no vent.

thus clearing the trap of the toilet and hence the smell.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Ron jeremy

[Pogust]

49 minutes ago, Ron jeremy said:

Simple, incorrect plumbing, no vent, Thais simply do not know proper plumbing venting practices.

a picture of proper venting has been posted, too late now unless you wish to cut into the drain and run a vent above the roof. A siphon will occur from  discharge of other fixtures, because of no vent.

thus clearing the trap of the toilet and hence the smell.

Suppose you read previous posts before comment?

[userabcd]

In the absence of determining the root cause of your odour problem, suggest you follow your own advice in your 1st post to change to another brand of toilet bowl.

[Pogust]

5 minutes ago, userabcd said:

In the absence of determining the root cause of your odour problem, suggest you follow your own advice in your 1st post to change to another brand of toilet bowl.

Thank you, at least a solution I can follow... ????

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Pogust said:

Turned off the vent fan in house, no smell anymore. That makes no sense, open windows all the time. And the smell comes from toilet bowl as I stick my nose down to check and make sure.

So you have found the problem. Your house vent fan is drawing foul air from the toilet. Precisely how the foul air is being drawn into the house is a different question, answers include bad fitting, and a faulty toilet. The water filled trap is not always the only route of air egress, there have been a few cases I’ve come across where there was an unintended extra hole in the casting. 
 

Your small vent hole could have exacerbated the problem by allowing air to be more easily drawn back into the house while simultaneously not permitting a sufficient pathway for the foul air to vent. That is just a reasonable guess.

[Fruit Trader]

[Morakot]

Quote

I drilled a small hole in the pipe from toilet to tank just to make sure there is no pressure build up there.

 

Looking at your plumbing, I'd say that a "small hole" is not sufficient.

 

There are cases where a disproportionally small vent is fine (see attached pictures): e.g. no significant drop in height between toilet and tank and a relative short overall lengths of drain pipe.

 

For your case, I would say you need a vent at least 50 mm if not 100mm in diameter.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Morakot

[Pogust]

Turned on the vent fan again when I want fresh air in the house. This time no smell... Not yet that is. I'm sure it will be back again in a few days.

 

Fruit trader, yes that is what I believe too. Problem is I can't find it. Maybe the air lock on this model is too small as the smell is coming up there. Guess I have to go pay for another model and change it. Doesn't seem logic, but hey this is Thailand and logic is not so common here...

 

 

[tjo o tjim]

It seems like your vent hole is not going to vent the whole horizontal pipe, as it is pitched. Have you considered moving it closer to the toilet, with a small riser fitting?

[Pogust]

EPILOGUE

 

So, finally got around to buy a new toilet. When we got to Thaiwatsadu where we bought the previous and also changed it once before, they remembered us. The story we were told then, other customers had also complained about this specific toilet! Now we bought another brand and all smell is gone from bathroom.

 

So obviously smell can go up through a water-lock, at least in Thailand....