Soil Fertility. In defence of the Albrecht system.

[drtreelove]

I can't find the recent thread now where I mentioned the William Albrecht inspired system of mineralization and soil cation balancing as a basis for building soil heath.  Another poster commented that this system has been de-bunked. I heard that before, but here is a link to another opinion and I believe the truth of the matter.  Take it or leave it; i find it to be a superior approach.

 

 https://blog.nutri-tech.com.au/in-defense-of-albrecht/

[Grumpy John]

Interesting!  Had to laugh when they said the process was no good and then told it was an old mine site!  I have always remembered the words of my father "If you have worms in your soil, your soil is good"  Which leaves me scratching my head as #1 orchard has worms and the trees keep growing and producing fruit and at #2 orchard the soil is dreadful, I find very few worms but the trees are growing well....and we will get our first harvest next year.  In fact I have decided to plant more Mangoes at #2 on a reasonable level area.  Just 100 R2E2 variety. The ones already there are Mun Falan (a mango eaten green with sugar and chilli (yuk) or used in Som Tum) and 12 R2E2 trees.

[farmerjo]

Hi Doc,

With the products this guy sells to follow this practise.

How does it compare to chemical farming cost wise for inputs and returns.

Let's say for a soya bean crop in Thailand.

Thanks.

[drtreelove]

3 hours ago, farmerjo said:

Hi Doc,

With the products this guy sells to follow this practise.

How does it compare to chemical farming cost wise for inputs and returns.

Let's say for a soya bean crop in Thailand.

Thanks.

I don't have that kind of first hand experience to enable me to answer.  Reports I've seen and heard are that costs are less, crop quality and profitability become better as the transition is made. But it's not just about substitution of inputs. 

 

I have not used the Nutri-tech product line, which appears to be excellent adjuvants for soil fertility building and plant health, above and beyond the basic Albrecht mineral balancing system. 

 

As for cost comparisons for inputs and returns, I don't think it's that simple. Regenerative farming involves more than substitution of inputs, it involves changes in thinking and practices. See the interview with Klaas and Mary-Howell Martens in Graeme Sait's book Nutrition Rules. (free e-book when you sign up for the newsletter)  They are large-scale
organic growers in the US and talk about transitioning to nutrient dense organic farming, what it takes, costs and returns.  Like the only farmers that I know who make ends meet, they have developed niche markets and specialty crops for profitability. Natural Agriculture with their 120 rai organic farm in Chiang Mai have built their soil for key market produce to maintain 5% organic matter. They sell their organic products to resort restaurants from the north to the south.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[farmerjo]

7 hours ago, drtreelove said:

I don't have that kind of first hand experience to enable me to answer.  Reports I've seen and heard are that costs are less, crop quality and profitability become better as the transition is made. But it's not just about substitution of inputs. 

 

I have not used the Nutri-tech product line, which appears to be excellent adjuvants for soil fertility building and plant health, above and beyond the basic Albrecht mineral balancing system. 

 

As for cost comparisons for inputs and returns, I don't think it's that simple. Regenerative farming involves more than substitution of inputs, it involves changes in thinking and practices. See the interview with Klaas and Mary-Howell Martens in Graeme Sait's book Nutrition Rules. (free e-book when you sign up for the newsletter)  They are large-scale
organic growers in the US and talk about transitioning to nutrient dense organic farming, what it takes, costs and returns.  Like the only farmers that I know who make ends meet, they have developed niche markets and specialty crops for profitability. Natural Agriculture with their 120 rai organic farm in Chiang Mai have built their soil for key market produce to maintain 5% organic matter. They sell their organic products to resort restaurants from the north to the south.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Doc,

Like most i'm getting closer to the middle only using glyphosate as a knockdown prior to sowing at the moment.

I had a quick read of his site and it mentioned wiping out all the insects to get the beneficial ones numbers back up.

I didn't have a real problem with aphids this year but pod borers did quite a bit of damage toward the end of the season.

Is it worth nuking it or should a crop rotation make them move on.  

[farmerjo]

This article the other day tells me organic growers don't get nearly enough for their produce which must be concerning for those wanting to make the change.It needs to be addressed.

 

Jakchai Chomthongdee, Oxfam Thailand's policy and campaigns manager, said in Thailand, farming is far from being a rewarding job. Farmers, he said, are not earning enough to enjoy an adequate standard of living and many are not reaping any benefits from the very food network they helped to build.

"For every 100 baht of produce sold in supermarkets, small-scale farmers and workers in the agricultural sector get less than 15 baht," according to Mr Jakchai.

[ireckonso]

Unfortunately small scale farming went out a long time ago. There are niche markets for high value vegetables, but they require a lot of work, something not really practiced here. It also doesnt help with the overuse of chemicals here which shuts the door on many markets for thai fruits and vegetables.

[IsaanAussie]

12 minutes ago, ireckonso said:

Unfortunately small scale farming went out a long time ago.

Not around here it hasn't luckily. A lot of family size farms that have got a lot better at marketing and have improved their farming techniques. Most villages remain serviced by the few that grow vegetables in their communities or buy from their village shops that buy from traders who supply the local markets. 

[drtreelove]

4 hours ago, farmerjo said:

Thanks Doc,

Like most i'm getting closer to the middle only using glyphosate as a knockdown prior to sowing at the moment.

I had a quick read of his site and it mentioned wiping out all the insects to get the beneficial ones numbers back up.

I didn't have a real problem with aphids this year but pod borers did quite a bit of damage toward the end of the season.

Is it worth nuking it or should a crop rotation make them move on.  

I haven't heard that strategy, usually it's the other way around, you try to wipe out the insect pests and you end up killing off all the beneficials, which allows a resurgence in the pests. The phenomenal discovery that it took me a long time to believe and trust in, is the premise in nutrient density growing, with balanced mineralized and biologically active soil, pests are not attracted to plants and they stay away.  I have found that to be true in my own garden and for my customers. 

 

But I'm not farming soybeans, or corn or rice. With highly competitive, low return field crops like this I don't think you can hope for a budget for soil building. Even in the highly sophisticated US corporate grain farming, farmers don't make it without government subsidies. To be profitable at all they have to be creative and grow premium priced, organic specialty crops and develop their own niche markets. We had a small hobby farm with mango and lamai orchards in Chiang Mai, the mangos and lamyai were such a competitive market they were hardly worth putting any money into, but we grew shade loving jiaogulan chinese herb in pots under the mature mango trees.  We made more on the jiaogulan than on the mangos. 

[ireckonso]

Along with the billions of other handouts the last few years to the farming community here, yeah small family farms are thriving.

https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30379176?utm_source=category&utm_medium=internal_referral

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, drtreelove said:

the premise in nutrient density growing, with balanced mineralized and biologically active soil, pests are not attracted to plants and they stay away.  I have found that to be true in my own garden and for my customers. 

As you know I spent some time working with Nutri-tech and know Graeme Sait quite well. His approach is refreshing, looking at the total solution for soil, plant growth and human consumption implications. They consider both soil and plant in formulating their recomendations.

Just now, drtreelove said:

With highly competitive, low return field crops like this I don't think you can hope for a budget for soil building.

I agree. Here in my part of Thailand, I don't believe the villagers consider rice primarily as an income, more a way to feed and sustain themselves. Once bills are paid and the rice stored for the next year little remains to be sold at farm gate prices and little money received. Rice draws nutrients and the residues from the crop are not enough to replace those used even composted with the addition of farmyard manures. Green manure crops have made a difference but the cost of preparation and incorporation must be met. A negative sum game until you add in the cost of buying milled rice if you have a crop failure. 

[farmerjo]

3 hours ago, ireckonso said:

Along with the billions of other handouts the last few years to the farming community here, yeah small family farms are thriving.

https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30379176?utm_source=category&utm_medium=internal_referral

I've given up on rice,just enough to feed the family,those subsidies never make it this far and rice farming to me is hard on our machinery.

If you have an unlimited water supply which we normally have,not next year then other crops that can handle a 8-20" rainfall growing period are more suitable here.

[farmerjo]

3 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

As you know I spent some time working with Nutri-tech and know Graeme Sait quite well. His approach is refreshing, looking at the total solution for soil, plant growth and human consumption implications. They consider both soil and plant in formulating their recomendations.

He has done well.

 

[ireckonso]

Many of the solutions put forth by various researchers are only good if you have something decent to begin with. The soil here in thailand is so degraded to the point of almost no return, the degradation is so great Im not sure if anything other than starting small plot remediation and growing high value/roi fruits and vegetables to sell to the chinese and japanese markets is the only way to make it worth the effort. I visited a greenhouse close to roi-et last weekend who has contracted with a japanese company to grow melons for export, he is making a good effort but unfortunately he doesnt really understand the process yet. I will be visiting him again soon to share more knowledge and hopefully help him succeed. Another fairly large greenhouse near me growing lettuce in nft rails has been through 3 owners now and still are not able to grasp the simple techniques to make a go of it. The market is there and I believe hydroponics solves so many of the soil problems that it may be the best way forward for growing here, excluding anything you can combine.

[farmerjo]

13 minutes ago, ireckonso said:

Many of the solutions put forth by various researchers are only good if you have something decent to begin with. The soil here in thailand is so degraded to the point of almost no return, the degradation is so great Im not sure if anything other than starting small plot remediation and growing high value/roi fruits and vegetables to sell to the chinese and japanese markets is the only way to make it worth the effort. I visited a greenhouse close to roi-et last weekend who has contracted with a japanese company to grow melons for export, he is making a good effort but unfortunately he doesnt really understand the process yet. I will be visiting him again soon to share more knowledge and hopefully help him succeed. Another fairly large greenhouse near me growing lettuce in nft rails has been through 3 owners now and still are not able to grasp the simple techniques to make a go of it. The market is there and I believe hydroponics solves so many of the soil problems that it may be the best way forward for growing here, excluding anything you can combine.

What do they say the lifespan of those greenhouses are here in Thailand.

When i travel to Khon Kaen i see a winery that has them,in tatters now.

5-6 years max.

Structure seem fine.

 

[rumak]

On 12/7/2019 at 8:57 AM, Grumpy John said:

Interesting!  Had to laugh when they said the process was no good and then told it was an old mine site!  I have always remembered the words of my father "If you have worms in your soil, your soil is good"  Which leaves me scratching my head as #1 orchard has worms and the trees keep growing and producing fruit and at #2 orchard the soil is dreadful, I find very few worms but the trees are growing well....and we will get our first harvest next year.  In fact I have decided to plant more Mangoes at #2 on a reasonable level area.  Just 100 R2E2 variety. The ones already there are Mun Falan (a mango eaten green with sugar and chilli (yuk) or used in Som Tum) and 12 R2E2 trees.

We just call them R2  for short   Lol      Our trees are going into 4th year.   should have pretty good yield this year.   Our land is Lamphun province..  Lamyai and Mango fields aplenty

found a pic from last year.   trees have grown a lot in 8 months

 

[ireckonso]

The frame if of good quality steel should last at least 10 years, the weak point is how you anchor the uprights due to corrosion. The plastic is a different story, here in thailand most plastic sheeting is anywhere from 1.5 to 3 microns and who knows about uv stabilizers. Mine in the us is minimum 5 mils and of a very high quality with a 5 year warranty. They even have coverings with anti-moisture control to help keep it clean. being in a tropical environment here you can use netting on the sidewalls and plastic on the roof and use shade cloth when needed. The sawtooth design greenhouse is what you want here to allow for heat and humidity control. There are some large plastic ag manufacturers here that can supply a higher quality of plastic, but as with everything in a tropical environment nothing lasts very long.

https://www.vsc.co.th/Agricultural_Und_Films/56e92f857c64ff3809713fa9

http://www.tctthainet.com/

[farmerjo]

23 hours ago, ireckonso said:

The frame if of good quality steel should last at least 10 years, the weak point is how you anchor the uprights due to corrosion. The plastic is a different story, here in thailand most plastic sheeting is anywhere from 1.5 to 3 microns and who knows about uv stabilizers. Mine in the us is minimum 5 mils and of a very high quality with a 5 year warranty. They even have coverings with anti-moisture control to help keep it clean. being in a tropical environment here you can use netting on the sidewalls and plastic on the roof and use shade cloth when needed. The sawtooth design greenhouse is what you want here to allow for heat and humidity control. There are some large plastic ag manufacturers here that can supply a higher quality of plastic, but as with everything in a tropical environment nothing lasts very long.

https://www.vsc.co.th/Agricultural_Und_Films/56e92f857c64ff3809713fa9

http://www.tctthainet.com/

The interesting question is will plastic be the new bad after the chemicals are gone.

[ireckonso]

51 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

will plastic be the new bad

Plastics can be recycled. Chemicals persist in the environment for years, but im not saying some chemicals wont be used in greenhouses but with the new biologics and IPM methods being used and developed there is way less damage done to the soil and watershed. There is an explosion of greenhouses being built around the world especially in countries with climates where without them noting would grow, let alone the yield per area versus soil farming is far greater. growing vegetables locally versus trucking them thousands of miles saves so much energy and they are fresh not 3 weeks old before they get to the market. Greenhouses will never replace anything that you have to combine but with constant innovations in robotics and IOT controls a revolution is happening like conventional farming in the 60's and 70's. When I was young 60-70 bushels per acre of corn was amazing, now 200 is the norm. It just takes a little thinking outside the box and accepting new technology, but im not holding my breath here in thailand for much change.

[IsaanAussie]

10 hours ago, ireckonso said:

but im not holding my breath here in thailand for much change

I have to differ on progress made in Thailand. In my direct experience over the last 10 years much has changed here in this area. Labour shortage and aging population have made complete reliance on mechanisation a fact of life in rain fed rice farming. 

The issue of soil fertility remains a difficult one. Wind and water erosion have removed top soil and year round water availability limits crop rotations and soil supplementing activities. 

As has been said, must of what could be done is limited by cost of inputs in communities such as this that have such low cash incomes.

[Grumpy John]

On 12/8/2019 at 7:25 PM, ireckonso said:

Many of the solutions put forth by various researchers are only good if you have something decent to begin with. The soil here in thailand is so degraded to the point of almost no return, the degradation is so great Im not sure if anything other than starting small plot remediation and growing high value/roi fruits and vegetables to sell to the chinese and japanese markets is the only way to make it worth the effort. I visited a greenhouse close to roi-et last weekend who has contracted with a japanese company to grow melons for export, he is making a good effort but unfortunately he doesnt really understand the process yet. I will be visiting him again soon to share more knowledge and hopefully help him succeed. Another fairly large greenhouse near me growing lettuce in nft rails has been through 3 owners now and still are not able to grasp the simple techniques to make a go of it. The market is there and I believe hydroponics solves so many of the soil problems that it may be the best way forward for growing here, excluding anything you can combine.

There's money in greenhouse produce....especially melons.  I myself am on the cusp of a greenhouse adventure.  All the steelworks is complete....except for the part of the door frame where it mounT's to the main structure.  Most of the water timers and pipe and fittings are ready as is the electrical timers and thermostats.  All I need are 2 workers that can follow instructions to assemble it! Once covered it will be home to Melons, capsicums and Western variety tomatoes.  At 60 sqM I  figured on 48-50 sqM of grow space. If this one proves beneficial after our learning stage I  have enough room for 2 more 12 * 14 greenhouses. Like Drtreelove said not a lot of proFit in mangoes.  But there is for some who market and transport their mangoes themselves direct to the market sellers.   Going through a buyer/agent,  like we do,  is to give away a huge chunk of potential profit.  That has to change!

[ireckonso]

Think about this, 10 years ago there were truckloads of nice fruit on every street corner at cheap prices being sold by small farmers, now the last few years all we get is <deleted> quality at ridiculous prices. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see the chinese can pay 4-5 times as much for that fruit and send it straight thru lao on the paved road they have built going straight to the chinese border in about 8 hours from thailand. There are now massive refrigerated warehouses near many of the friendship bridges to stage the product for shipment. So yeah I think the smart small farmers here will find some Chinese not thai brokers and be able to make some money in the future selling their products and greenhouse/hydroponics will be a good investment.

[ireckonso]

Yes thailand has a few small combines and the last couple of years got some balers for rice straw not what I would call big change especially when their crop yields have been flat for over 10 years. Again vietnam can produce twice the yield at half the cost, but oh those poor hard working thai farmers.

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, ireckonso said:

Yes thailand has a few small combines and the last couple of years got some balers for rice straw not what I would call big change especially when their crop yields have been flat for over 10 years. Again vietnam can produce twice the yield at half the cost, but oh those poor hard working thai farmers.

You are misinformed my friend. Thailand has been importing balers for over ten years that I can show you. They have been manufacturing large combines for much longer. Twice the yield should half the cost. And yes, most Thai farmers can be financially considered poor. 

What's your point? 

[ireckonso]

My point is you always seem to defend a system that is so outdated it makes the wheel look like a new invention. Again if thai farmers are doing it so well why are they so far behind other developing countries surrounding us ??? Arrogance and fear of foreigners/technology/competition will be the death of this industry and it is well on its way to the grave.

[IsaanAussie]

Thanks I take that as a compliment. I do defend the system here which is much more than just comparing farming techniques and yields with others, it is a way of life where the cultural side of life far outweighs the economics. The past King promoted a sufficiency motive where people are not all equally rewarded but should strive to be happy with what they have. 

[ireckonso]

2 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

but should strive to be happy with what they have. 

Yeah tell that to the younger generation who are starting to realize those at the top with all the money seem to want to sell this idea to them, while they should be poor and happy. Then tell the farmer that he should be happy living in a craphole house, in debt up to their ears while the middlemen get rich. Its easy being a foreigner here and believe that but all the thais I know dont eat it.

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, ireckonso said:

Its easy being a foreigner here

Really? 

[farmerjo]

8 hours ago, ireckonso said:

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see the chinese can pay 4-5 times as much for that fruit and send it straight thru lao on the paved road they have built going straight to the chinese border in about 8 hours from thailand.

So what is the system that needs to be put in place for fruit and vegie growers to benefit from this.

Middlemen.Co-operatives, certification,Somchai still will end up with the same price on farm.

 

[Grumpy John]

On 12/8/2019 at 8:06 PM, rumak said:

We just call them R2  for short   Lol      Our trees are going into 4th year.   should have pretty good yield this year.   Our land is Lamphun province..  Lamyai and Mango fields aplenty

found a pic from last year.   trees have grown a lot in 8 months

 

I am impressed with the orchard in the top pic.....are you mowing the  grass with a lawn mower?  I too call em R2's but on the forum and talking to folks I tend to try and be precise.....which can be a tall order for me!  My Wife still has trouble understanding Australian so I  tend to talk slowww to the natives.