Does Thailand Have Honest Straight Girls?

[andyinkat]

Please forgive me for gate-crashing; I've been quietly following this thread for a while and suddenly on this page beginning with 31x's post the quality shot right up!

Some very good quality issues arising, many contradictory but certainly working on a deeper level. FWIW and at the risk of being flamed I'd like to throw in some of my observations based on professional and personal experience (which is not to claim that they are objectively correct):

OP, can I quote you here:

Yes, I agree that West and East are different in terms of culture. However, you can NOT convince me that people from East and West do not know the same meaning of "right" versus "wrong".

And:

When someone says the Asian people have a different definition of faithfulness, they are really talking about Asian people having a different level of guilt.

-With respect, I think that in these comments you are revealing the innermost heart of a problem. With the caveat of falling into generalisation, I want to say that on a certain level there IS a real and fundamental difference in the subconscious worldviews between the Western and Eastern mindset. And at the risk of really irating some readers I'd like to suggest that the differences are largely a result of Christian and Buddhist cultures. I'm not talking of 'Christians' and 'Buddhists' here, I mean your unquestioned assumptions about the human condition are informed by certain Christian principles that are in your culture, and hers are similarly informed by Buddhist ones, even if she has no explicit knowledge of the teachings.

Your comments betray very clearly one side of the equation - a polerised morality - good/evil, right/wrong, true/false. I'm not making a value judgement here but I am suggesting that as long as you're locked into that relative value system you will never understand on a deep level a Thai or Buddhist-based mentality.

The Buddha taught that there are no absolutes; all 'reality' is process. This means that the very assumptions you make are not shared by Thais, not in the same way. That's not to say their morality is inferior - just look at the lifestyle and practices of worthy Buddhists, but it is based on a very different way of thinking.

And 'guilt' is definitely a Christian-based concept. It has no meaning at all for Buddhists. Now 'face' is paramount in Thai culture whereas westerners often have no problem making an arse of themselves and not thinking anything of it.

I myself with my background in East/West religious philosophy have tried very hard to utilise my intellect in these matters and have still made some absolutlely horrendous mistakes.

I appreciate this may not be of any immediate use to you but please at least be open to my suggestion that maybe her mind does work far more differently than you can imagine, and that if you are to understand her in her society then you have to make great efforts to open yourself to learn some very different unspoken ways of thinking.

Thank you.

[OxfordWill]

-With respect, I think that in these comments you are revealing the innermost heart of a problem. With the caveat of falling into generalisation, I want to say that on a certain level there IS a real and fundamental difference in the subconscious worldviews between the Western and Eastern mindset. And at the risk of really irating some readers I'd like to suggest that the differences are largely a result of Christian and Buddhist cultures.

Very well put, the most notable difference being the christian sense of the moral 'ought', or moral obligation/duty. Pre Christian times, we never suffered from the idea that we are morally obliged to behave in certain ways, rather than (for example) being more agent-centred in our quest for morality.

[stroll]

I was just trying to write something up following 31x's post, but couldn't find the words, and your post appeared, Andy. Magic.

I agree what you say accounts for a lot of misunderstandings, and this point of view hasn't been well represented in this forum. Difficult view to put across, it is easy to misunderstand and slag off.

And it is going beyond the discussion in this thread, I suggest to make a new topic .

Btw, reading your recent posts, I admit I misjudged you when you first showed up, I hope you don't bear a grudge?

[stroll]

OxfordWill:

"that we are morally obliged to behave in certain ways, rather than (for example) being more agent-centred in our quest for morality."

What is agent-centred, could you explain the term?

andyinkat:

"And 'guilt' is definitely a Christian-based concept. It has no meaning at all for Buddhists."

I wouldn't go as far as this, TL1's girlfriend feels guilty, or sorry, or how would you describe it? And Buddhists have moral guidelines which state they should not steal, for example, and whoever stole my neighbours bicycle knows very well they've done something wrong.

I would say the meaning of guilt is different, it is not an absolute, but it does exist.

[andyinkat]

Btw, reading your recent posts, I admit I misjudged you when you first showed up, I hope you don't bear a grudge?

Not at all mate - I was crass in the extreme! I'm also a very contradictory character but I've long since let go of trying to understand or worse, 'find' myself - so if I can't do it you shouldn't waste your time trying! Just take my posts on their individual merits - many of whiich will undoubtably be appalling!

As for starting a new thread - I won't be doing that as I'm still very much an outsider round these parts, but if someone does and it's looking good, who knows, I might chuck in another tuppence-worth!

[OxfordWill]

OxfordWill:

"that we are morally obliged to behave in certain ways, rather than (for example) being more agent-centred in our quest for morality."

What is agent-centred, could you explain the term?

Agent-centred refers to something that concentrates on the person doing the actions rather than those actions themselves.

Aristotle was the first established proponent of this way of doing ethics. It's normative theory, which is the study of ways in which we can create an overall structure or code by which to live ethically.

An example of agent-centred theory is Virtue Ethics - the idea that to do things 'rightly' we need to first make sure we are a virtuous person - having 'the virtues' (things like honesty, prudence, etc). If we do this, virtue ethicists claim, our actions will take care of themselves.

Christian ethics are more action-centred. The idea that an action itself is either right or wrong, regardless of who is doing it, or sometimes the context within which is is being performed rests somewhere here.

Hope that helps, it's 1:40am so you'll forgive me.

[andyinkat]

OxfordWill:

"that we are morally obliged to behave in certain ways, rather than (for example) being more agent-centred in our quest for morality."

What is agent-centred, could you explain the term?

andyinkat:

"And 'guilt' is definitely a Christian-based concept. It has no meaning at all for Buddhists."

I wouldn't go as far as this, TL1's girlfriend feels guilty, or sorry, or how would you describe it? And Buddhists have moral guidelines which state they should not steal, for example, and whoever stole my neighbours bicycle knows very well they've done something wrong.

I would say the meaning of guilt is different, it is not an absolute, but it does exist.

Okay, I'll come in again, and these two issues do overlap. On the surface, Christian and Buddhist-based moralities are similar and both have the outcome if followed sincerely of producing good, caring people. The 'hidden' difference tends to be in the motivation.

'Agent centred' is a good term here. Christian morality is God-centred. It is God who says 'Thou shalt not steal'. 'Guilt' in the classical Christian definition is the feeling that results from offending God. In Western society the feeling may remain even where the belief in the divine has evaporated.

In Buddhism (particularly the Theravadan tradition prevalent in Thailand) there is no Absolute God, so no one to command you, no one to please or offend in the same sense. In Buddhism there is 'you' (the agent) and the karmic results or your actions. 'Bad' actions don't offend God and don't require forgiveness; they automatically sow the seeds of future woe.

Along with karma/kamma another fundamental assumption is 'interdependence' - all things are interconnected, so whatever you do, say or think affects others, thus any harm you do will ultimately rebound on you.

Finally, for now, another fundamental difference between the two religious systems is that Buddhism denies the existence of a 'soul'. again, this links to the concept of interconnectedness - we are not seperate entities but all interlinked. In buddhist thinking no 'soul' (atman/atta) equals no 'Self', thus the morality is inherently 'selfless'. 'Self' is the delusion that leads to selfish acts that cause harm. If we are truly selfless our acts will be selfless; the other term for this is karuna, or 'compassion'.

Thus the ultimate ethic in Buddhism is compassion, which in practice is the same as Jesus' 'agape love', but the motivations differ as one is ordained by and carried out to please God; the other is allegedly a rational way of thinking and behaving.

And I'm sorry if I've left the OP WAY behind!

[daveh]

Keywords:

'Hardheaded" for you, and 'money talks' for her.

Use the head on your shoulders to think about the longterm pespectives.

Nice on Stroll. I was thinking the same thing.

I have a friend in a very similar situation. Lives in the US, when he comes to Thailand his girlfriend stays with him. She is stringing along several boyfriends. Some send her money from abroad, but he told her he will not give her any money as long as she has other boyfriends. There is a big age difference with them as well. Honestly, I cannot see what her angle is. What is she trying to achieve? The only thing I can think of is marriage. But he definitely is not the marrying type. But who knows, before he found out about the other boyfriends, maybe he was talking about marriage to her.

[Udox]

westerners often have no problem making an arse of themselves and not thinking anything of it.

Thank you.

What a brilliant explanation of the subject of 'Face'

[ThaiLover1]

I myself with my background in East/West religious philosophy have tried very hard to utilise my intellect in these matters and have still made some absolutlely horrendous mistakes.

I appreciate this may not be of any immediate use to you but please at least be open to my suggestion that maybe her mind does work far more differently than you can imagine, and that if you are to understand her in her society then you have to make great efforts to open yourself to learn some very different unspoken ways of thinking.

I agree with you that this is an interesting subject, and that my GF may have some deep rooted differences, in her thinking.

However, my intent by using the label "right/wrong" was not one of religious overtones. It was simply using the words as experienced from a child, without any religious leanings.

There is a such a thing as an universal understanding of right or wrong. Even animals use it when following their instincts. And all humans from all cultures use it as a road for survival. Without an understanding or right and wrong, we would not be a living on this Earth. We would all have turned to dust from all the mischief.

Even a man/woman from Mars would know that cheating - plus lying about it - is wrong. A child knows what is right or wrong.

This is what I was referring to in an earlier post. Perhaps I should not use the word guilt, because of the Christian connections. My mistake - nothing more, nothing less.

The Buddhists know that cheating is wrong. They are not driven by guilt but call lust a “counterproductive emotion”. Cheating can be called anything you want, but the results are still the same: pain and suffering - whether Christian or Buddhist.

BTW, my GF is both Christian and Buddhist. She prays to God and offers flowers to Buddha. It is the most amazing thing to see. I just take it all in - it is all good.

Nobody wants cheating. Even the cheater knows it is wrong. Why else would he/she try to hide it, if it is a good action.

[Dondi]

This thread has had way too much attention

Old farang cant handle his extremely younger thai girlfriend , its not the first time this is happened and wont be the last ...

Please tell me seiously what the ###### u guys are thinking ??? u seriously think having a girlfirend 30 years younger then u is a good idea ??? are u really that lonely and cant get a girl your own age?

This makes me angry at farangs alot more then i would usaully , i have no problem with the stupid ways of western guys in thailand (there only making a fool of themselves) but i cant handle seeing old guys (even if it was a 50 year old thai guy and 20 year old thai guy) its just not right , its never gonna be real love.

To me your just another lonely old loser that needs to wake up to yourself,if i saw u in the street with your "gf" i wouldnt be praising you coz u have a young girl , but would have to fight back to urge to spit in your face for being such a disrespectful dirty bastard ..... And dont think i would be happy with the girl either , it takes 2 to tango

my gf's 22 , im 20 , i couldnt imagine me being with her if i was 50 , its just wrong.

Go home and slap yourself for being so stupid , find someone that is on your level , your age (or close to it) , has the same interests and forget about young girls , your time has gone , get over it

[Begs]

my gf's 22 , im 20 , i couldnt imagine me being with her if i was 50 , its just wrong.

If she aint a bad looker, theres plenty of 50 year old guys who COULD imagine being with her

[Begs]

This thread has had way too much attention

Please tell me seiously what the ###### u guys are thinking ??? u seriously think having a girlfirend 30 years younger then u is a good idea ??? are u really that lonely and cant get a girl your own age?

Why would he want a GF of 50, when he can get one of 21?

Don't see Rod Stewart or Mick Jagger trying to pull birds of 60, do you?

[ThaiLover1]

Why would he want a GF of 50, when he can get one of 21?

Don't see Rod Stewart or Mick Jagger trying to pull birds of 60, do you?

Agreed.

I even remember that when I was in my 20s that I was disgusted at older men looking for and dating much younger girls. However, I changed my thinking as I become middle-aged.

I still like attractive girls. I still enjoy great sex, more than ever. I do not enjoy making love to an overweight soccer-mum (no offense). If I can enjoy a 20 something girlfriend, why not?!

Dondi,

A small tip for you young studs out there that think are have it all, or are complaning about older men going out with your sisters; I am a 50 year old man, and I do it longer, harder and more frequent than when I was 25. I frankly did not know what I was doing when I was 25.

Sex was pleasant in my 20s, but now I am in heaven and enjoy it so much more than in my younger years. I sometimes will not let my girl out of bed, all day. And, she seems very pleased too. Sometimes, she will ask for a time-out and she will get dressed and eat some food. But, sex is not the only thing. I just get a thrill out of watching her sleep or watch her eat an ice-cream. It is soooo romantic!

I do not mean to boast, but I will talk to you again when you reach your middle ages, my friend. You may have a few things to learn, yet.

Sorry, to talk to you like an elder, but I have seen many things over the years.

[rainman]

If you say women in Thailand cannot be trusted, then you can also say women in the United States, Australia, Spain or Greece cannot be trusted. There are women who can be trusted and those who cannot be trusted in every country, including Thailand. According to statistics i've read just recently, over 40% of married German women have had an affair while being married - and over 55% of men admitted to having it done too. Face it, men are not made to be with the same woman for their entire life. Neither are women. Its a remaining instinct back from when we walked around in goat skin and hit our neighbour on the head with a tree stomp. Its the same thing everywhere, not just Thailand. We can go on an endless debate on this, really.

[OxfordWill]

Alot of my female friends say they have better sex with 'older men' but frankly I doubt they mean the average expat in Thailand - just look at 'em! Greasy bastards.

However, I think you oldies do have a thing or to to teach.

[splitlid]

. its the same thing everywhere, not just Thailand. We can go on an endless debate on this, really.

please dont say that

it may invite yohan back to the table

[Yohan]

. its the same thing everywhere, not just Thailand. We can go on an endless debate on this, really.

please dont say that

it may invite yohan back to the table

Already reading.......Considering......Very interesting topic:

Does Thailand Have Honest Straight Girls? = Original topic

Does Thailand Have Honest Straight Thai Girls? = 16 pages up to now

Does Thailand Have Honest Straight Farang Girls? = from page 17 on....

Very important to talk about this rare subject. Who makes the first posting in this way? Who invites me and wants to hear my opinion?

[rainman]

I know of one 62 year old farang who lives in Phuket, married to a 24 year old Thai. She goes to work every day, he doesn't work a thing, just sits home watching TV. And no, he's not rich, in fact quite the contrary. Her family bought their house. So, does Thailand have honest straight girls? See you all on page 58 of this thread.

[Insight]

To answer the original question, "does Thailand have honest blah blah blah"....

Yes, just like Kazakhstan or {insert random country of choice here}.

Can anybody tell me what's been happening in Eastenders over the past three years? I never really watched it back in the UK, but another xx pages of that would be more of an interesting read than this.

(Apart from the analogies of "guilt" compared to "face" - thought that was an interesting concept...)

[Axel]

Who invites me and wants to hear my opinion?

I do not know an answer to this, still being shell shocked when read:

Next month I am in Thailand, without computer by the way....

[ambassador]

I couldn't be bothered to read all the posts, not least because it's a daft question.

As for Yohan, his posts should be shorter because he talks a lot of rubbish and the little that I read is in an irritating European accent.

His avatar could also be toned down a little and he should calm down a bit but I wish him no harm.

[stroll]

Spelling the spirits name does often have the effect of summoning it.

[Yohan]

I couldn't be bothered to read all the posts, not least because it's a daft question.

As for Yohan, his posts should be shorter because he talks a lot of rubbish and the little that I read is in an irritating European accent.

His avatar could also be toned down a little and he should calm down a bit but I wish him no harm. 

Good evening, Your Excellency Mr. Ambassador,

I was shocked to see your avatar, as I was thinking, the 'Female Forum Police' is showing up to arrest me.....a certain moderator is using the same avatar as you do.

About my European accent....

Most people on this forum clearly understand my written English, as they complain about the contents.

You made some postings about vacancies in embassies:

  Working For Your Embassy (Pages 1 2 )

ambassador Posted on: Sun 2004-06-06, 13:10:04

Just a thought, but does anybody know what is required to work for ones embassy and what different fields there are to work in?

I am working in the embassy here in Tokyo since 1983, and embassies have sometimes vacancies. For an ad in a local newspaper, we get usually 300 replies for one job. I do not think however you fit our requirements.

QUOTE (ambassador @ Wed 2004-06-16, 13:02:21)

All countries have their stereotypes; the English for hooliganism, ... and the French for passing stools in the shower and pushing them through the plughole with their big toe.

Such remarks will not help you to work in an Embassy of the European community ....

ambassador 

Posted: Wed 2004-06-16, 21:44:11 I mean no offence to English girls by that but let's face it, you do have very fat white <deleted>.

The Personnel Department of the British Embassy has usually female officers, they will like to hear your compliments.

You are not a bad guy and and you have a good sense for humour... Good luck...

Johann

[stroll]

[Yohan]

I expected your comments, little troll, or are you still reading? Come on, hurry up.

[Bluecat]

I expected your comments, little troll, or are you still reading? Come on, hurry up.

I do not want to interrupt but having noticed in the past weeks or months less "patience" from the moderators, I think both you and Stroll are skating on thin ice,...

[stroll]

Point taken, thank you.

[Yohan]

I expected your comments, little troll, or are you still reading? Come on, hurry up.

I do not want to interrupt but having noticed in the past weeks or months less "patience" from the moderators, I think both you and Stroll are skating on thin ice,...

OK, good evening, Bluecat,

About myself, I will be in Thailand from 14th of July on, for 6 weeks and without computer....flight confirmed.

About Stroll, my personal troll, he will be re-born soon, it is not the first time and he will follow somebody else. I tried a while not to answer, but he follows me all the time, nobody stops him, and from now I will answer to him, too.....and in the same way.

Maybe somebody will notice it and will do something about it now!

Stroll should change his avatar at least to give me a better feeling.

Johann

P.S Anyway this is my last posting on this thread. I am out. And if you ask me, this thread is ready for shutdown.....

[tuktuk]

Don`t worry about age, there are a lot of honest girls in Thailand and all over the world, who prefer older men. I`m also over 50 and had an europen GF, student, 21 y young, rich parents, good looking. So why not in Thailand. My thai GF is 26, works as a goldsmith and she always tells me, that age don`t count. But I agree with rainman, take your time with marriage, time will show how much she loves you.