Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I am not particularly keen to link to the Sun but this story is just too good to ignore. 

 

INDY ON? Odds slashed on second Scottish independence referendum to happen before 2022

 

THE odds have been slashed on there being another independence referendum before 2022.

Bookies Coral are offering 3-1 on there being another vote on Scotland's future within the UK before the end of 2021.

If SNP were serious they'd insist on the entire Kingdom being polled.

(????????-????????????????????????????=✓ )

[7by7]

53 minutes ago, evadgib said:

If SNP were serious they'd insist on the entire Kingdom being polled

 

So you are saying that if a member country wants to leave a union then the voters of whole union should vote on the matter.

 

Didn't happen in 2016, did it. You must be outraged about that!

[evadgib]

58 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

So you are saying that if a member country wants to leave a union then the voters of whole union should vote on the matter.

 

Didn't happen in 2016, did it. You must be outraged about that!

Why would I be outraged when ???????? terminated ???????? 's stranglehold at the first attempt?

Suggesting the 27 would vote to retain ???????? is the polar opposite of what ???????????????????????????? would do to ???????????????????????????? given the chance.

[7by7]

12 hours ago, evadgib said:

Why would I be outraged when ???????? terminated ???????? 's stranglehold at the first attempt?

Suggesting the 27 would vote to retain ???????? is the polar opposite of what ???????????????????????????? would do to ???????????????????????????? given the chance.

 

As you want the whole of one union (the UK) to have a say on whether one member (Scotland) can leave then it is strange that you did not want the same for one member (the UK) leaving another union (the EU).

 

Although, of course, the EU is nothing like the political union of the UK, the principle is the same.

 

Personally, I think the decision on whether or not to leave a union, political or commercial, is a matter for the member concerned. 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

As you want the whole of one union (the UK) to have a say on whether one member (Scotland) can leave then it is strange that you did not want the same for one member (the UK) leaving another union (the EU).

 

Although, of course, the EU is nothing like the political union of the UK, the principle is the same.

 

Personally, I think the decision on whether or not to leave a union, political or commercial, is a matter for the member concerned. 

 

 

 

I'd say that the legal basis for the union is and the conditions for joining ought to be vital matters

along with treaty-treaty stipulations and any established int law practice

 

[7by7]

6 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I'd say that the legal basis for the union is and the conditions for joining ought to be vital matters

along with treaty-treaty stipulations and any established int law practice

 

 Indeed; but all these can be negotiated and agreed before joining or leaving; as per the Brexit negotiations.

 

But the decision on whether or not to finally join or finally leave should be that of the voters of the country concerned. In this case that is Scotland.

 

 

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

As you want the whole of one union (the UK) to have a say on whether one member (Scotland) can leave then it is strange that you did not want the same for one member (the UK) leaving another union (the EU).

 

Although, of course, the EU is nothing like the political union of the UK, the principle is the same.

 

Personally, I think the decision on whether or not to leave a union, political or commercial, is a matter for the member concerned. 

...yet you're still sulking 4 years after ???????? did just that? ????

 

[melvinmelvin]

39 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Indeed; but all these can be negotiated and agreed before joining or leaving; as per the Brexit negotiations.

 

But the decision on whether or not to finally join or finally leave should be that of the voters of the country concerned. In this case that is Scotland.

 

 

ok,

but now we discuss a union established in the year 17xxand-stale-bread,

what were the lawmakers or signatories intention and wish at the time

[welovesundaysatspace]

 

 

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Although, of course, the EU is nothing like the political union of the UK, the principle is the same.

Correct. The EU is democratic. Every member state participates in the Democratic process as a sovereign, independent nation.  
 

In the UK, you are just a vassal state of the unelected rulers in England. 

 

[Nigel Garvie]

9 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

ok,

but now we discuss a union established in the year 17xxand-stale-bread,

what were the lawmakers or signatories intention and wish at the time

1707, the story of the Scots landowners who sold out and betrayed their country is well covered in the folk song "Parcel of rogues". Such a parcel of rogues in a nation.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, Nigel Garvie said:

1707, the story of the Scots landowners who sold out and betrayed their country is well covered in the folk song "Parcel of rogues". Such a parcel of rogues in a nation.

ahh, Burns with fame and glory down the drain . . . having spent years in Scotland -have I heard that tune before?

 

rather pessimistic that tune

 

 

[7by7]

On 7/26/2020 at 11:53 AM, melvinmelvin said:

ok,

but now we discuss a union established in the year 17xxand-stale-bread,

what were the lawmakers or signatories intention and wish at the time

 

The intentions and wishes at the time were defined in the 1706 Treaty, or Articles, of Union. Article one of which states "That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain." (Source)

 

I'm not a lawyer, but if there was a legal reason why the the phrase 'forever after' in Article 1 of the 1706 Treaty means it could not be superseded by a new treaty in which Scotland became independent and the Acts of Union were both repealed, I'm sure it would have been mentioned during the 2014 campaign.

 

I don't recall any such mention; did I miss it?

 

 

[rott]

On 7/26/2020 at 6:56 PM, welovesundaysatspace said:

 

 

Correct. The EU is democratic. Every member state participates in the Democratic process as a sovereign, independent nation.  
 

In the UK, you are just a vassal state of the unelected rulers in England. 

 

It will not happen, but just say there was another referendum and leavers won would you have another vote in a few years to placate the Unionists.?

 

No.? Thought not. 

 

 

[samsensam]

9 minutes ago, rott said:

It will not happen, but just say there was another referendum and leavers won would you have another vote in a few years to placate the Unionists.?

 

No.? Thought not. 

 

 

 

haha quite right, you can't keep having votes on something as fundamental as independence every few years just because your side didnt win. once in a generation, say every 25/30 years makes sense. speaking as someone who would be more than happy to see scotland to go their own way.

[welovesundaysatspace]

9 hours ago, rott said:

It will not happen, but just say there was another referendum and leavers won would you have another vote in a few years to placate the Unionists.?

 

9 hours ago, samsensam said:

haha quite right, you can't keep having votes on something as fundamental as independence every few years just because your side didnt win.
once in a generation, say every 25/30 years makes sense. speaking as someone who would be more than happy to see scotland to go their own way.

A sovereign state can decide these questions for themselves. EU member states can decide these questions for themselves. As a vassal state of England, other people decide over your fate.
 

That’s the state of (un)democracy in  Ukania. The Scottish will be the first to leave the failing kingdom and its unelected rulers. 
 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by welovesundaysatspace

[vogie]

22 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

That’s the state of (un)democracy in  Ukania. The Scottish will be the first to leave the failing kingdom and its unelected rulers. 
 

"Fiction writing is great, you can make up almost anything"

:Ivana Trump ????????

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by vogie

[welovesundaysatspace]

55 minutes ago, vogie said:

"Fiction writing is great, you can make up almost anything"

:Ivana Trump ????????

 

Except that it’s not fiction but a fact that UK member states cannot decide their own fate. Unlike EU member states. 
 

And except that it’s not fiction but a fact that the UK’s head of state is unelected.
 

???? ???? ???? 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Except that it’s not fiction but a fact that UK member states cannot decide their own fate. Unlike EU member states. 
 

And except that it’s not fiction but a fact that the UK’s head of state is unelected.
 

???????????? 

You have of course suggested that Scotland will go independent when in reality you havn't got a clue, you are probably suggesting this because the EU referendum didn't go the way you would have liked it to have gone, but in reality the EU has a stronger possibility of others leaving their Jolly Boys Club.????

If you don't believe me, have a listen to what Mr A Salmond has to say about it, he is very clear about how a democratic vote should be respected.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

13 hours ago, samsensam said:

 

haha quite right, you can't keep having votes on something as fundamental as independence every few years just because your side didnt win. once in a generation, say every 25/30 years makes sense. speaking as someone who would be more than happy to see scotland to go their own way.

Should we stop voting for new governments every 4 to 5 years also? Democracy and aspirations do not ceases because it suits some people. Even the suggestion that there should be some sort of time limit on a rerun is utterly ludicrous. 

 

As for once in a generation, that was a throwaway line but if it must so tiresomely trotted out as a defence of the union on such a regular basis (for want of any actually tangible defence), I like the Northern Irish approach where the GFA defines a generation as 7 years. 2021 it is then.  

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

You have of course suggested that Scotland will go independent when in reality you havn't got a clue, you are probably suggesting this because the EU referendum didn't go the way you would have liked it to have gone, but in reality the EU has a stronger possibility of others leaving their Jolly Boys Club.????

If you don't believe me, have a listen to what Mr A Salmond has to say about it, he is very clear about how a democratic vote should be respected.

 

 

Huh? You mean that we didn't actually respect the referendum result? Is Scotland actually free of the burden of the union and I was not aware of it?

[transam]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

Huh? You mean that we didn't actually respect the referendum result? Is Scotland actually free of the burden of the union and I was not aware of it?

"Burden", did you make a mistake....?

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, transam said:

"Burden", did you make a mistake....?

I have made many in my time, but I don't believe I made any in that reply.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I have made many in my time, but I don't believe I made any in that reply.

 

[vogie]

14 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Huh? You mean that we didn't actually respect the referendum result? Is Scotland actually free of the burden of the union and I was not aware of it?

You know exactly what I mean and I know exactly what you mean. Why bring Scotland into this, it is about the SNP and the rest of the union, the SNP have split Scotland right down the middle and all SNP members should be ashamed.

I believe Scotland is closed to the English, is this true?

 

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, transam said:

 

I must have missed the part where Carcrash HUMILIATED anyone other than himself. Although the man has form on that front - the word on the street is that CCHQ is so worried about his dismal performance, and the fact that voters are abandoning the nasty party in droves, that they are planning to bring back Rape Clause Ruth.

 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

You know exactly what I mean and I know exactly what you mean. Why bring Scotland into this, it is about the SNP and the rest of the union, the SNP have split Scotland right down the middle and all SNP members should be ashamed.

I believe Scotland is closed to the English, is this true?

 

 

You will note that there is no mention of the SNP in your photo - I understand that the guy in the photo is called Sean Clerkson, allegedly a hardcore marxist. But Scottish twitter is convinced that the guy is actually on the pay of the UK government because he pops up so regularly with these types of banners, apparently with the intention of discrediting the vast majority of independence supporters. He certainly seems to represent no mainstream organisation and has no groundswell of support. He is either a nutter or a shill. 

 

But this idiot aside, the suggestion that the SNP has created a divide is pretty shallow when you actually spend a nanosecond thinking about it. Independence is the result of decades of disenfranchisement and contempt from Westminster. Don't criticise those who despise the origins of their frustration when they organise themselves in a democratic manner. Unless, of course, you don't like democracy. 

 

So far from shame, the SNP should be proud that it has organised and coordinated that outrage. It has given a voice to those who aspire for better. That it doesn't respect the status quo is irrelevant - the status quo is the shame that we all, currently, live with. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

You have of course suggested that Scotland will go independent when in reality you havn't got a clue

According to the polls, that’s what the Scottish people want. Of course, we will never know, because Scotland is just a vassal state of Westminster that is not allowed to decide its own fate. 
 

1 hour ago, vogie said:

you are probably suggesting this because the EU referendum didn't go the way you would have liked it to have gone

You don’t have to speculate why people write something; it doesn’t change what they wrote, and you’re most likely wrong anyway. 

 

 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

According to the polls, that’s what the Scottish people want. Of course, we will never know, because Scotland is just a vassal state of Westminster that is not allowed to decide its own fate. 
 

You don’t have to speculate why people write something; it doesn’t change what they wrote, and you’re most likely wrong anyway. 

 

 

And according to Alex Salmond a referendum result must be respected.

[welovesundaysatspace]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

And according to Alex Salmond a referendum result must be respected.

And many more people than Alex Salmond think differently. If the UKSSR was a democracy like the EU, it wouldn’t be up to him and it wouldn’t be up to Westminster to decide what “must” happen to that referendum result. It would be up to the Scottish people. 

[vogie]

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

You will note that there is no mention of the SNP in your photo - I understand that the guy in the photo is called Sean Clerkson, allegedly a hardcore marxist. But Scottish twitter is convinced that the guy is actually on the pay of the UK government because he pops up so regularly with these types of banners, apparently with the intention of discrediting the vast majority of independence supporters. He certainly seems to represent no mainstream organisation and has no groundswell of support. He is either a nutter or a shill. 

 

But this idiot aside, the suggestion that the SNP has created a divide is pretty shallow when you actually spend a nanosecond thinking about it. Independence is the result of decades of disenfranchisement and contempt from Westminster. Don't criticise those who despise the origins of their frustration when they organise themselves in a democratic manner. Unless, of course, you don't like democracy. 

 

So far from shame, the SNP should be proud that it has organised and coordinated that outrage. It has given a voice to those who aspire for better. That it doesn't respect the status quo is irrelevant - the status quo is the shame that we all, currently, live with. 

I will give your first paragraph the contempt it so richly deserves, suffice to say that certain sections of the SNP are not xenophobic is laughable.

 

The Scots had a yougov poll and of the 2500 Scots that were polled only 16% thought that their country was united, is that not food for thought?

 

Some members of the SNP have called for a boycott on the businesses that Boris visited whilst on his trip around Scotland, many would call that xenophobia.

 

"Gordon Brown has claimed that Scotland is at risk of becoming “one of the west’s most divided countries”.

The former prime minister made the claim after a YouGov poll of 2,500 Scots suggested only 16% believe the country is united.

Commissioned by the Our Scottish Future thinktank, the poll also found that 47% of respondents believe Scots will always be divided on the issues of Brexit and independence."

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/gordon-brown-scotland-risks-west-most-divided-countries