UK PM Johnson cannot keep Scotland in union against its will: Sturgeon

[webfact]

UK PM Johnson cannot keep Scotland in union against its will: Sturgeon

 

Scottish National Party leader Nicola Sturgeon speaks at a counting centre for Britain's general election in Glasgow, Britain, December 13, 2019. REUTERS/Russell Cheyne

 

LONDON (Reuters) - Scotland's first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, warned Prime Minister Boris Johnson on Sunday that he could not keep Scotland in the United Kingdom against the country's will.

 

Johnson and his government have repeatedly said they will not give the go ahead for another referendum on Scottish independence, but Sturgeon said after the Scottish National Party won 48 of Scotland's 59 seats in the UK parliament, her party had been given a mandate for one.

 

"If he thinks ... saying no is the end of the matter then he is going to find himself completely and utterly wrong," Sturgeon told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show.

 

"You cannot hold Scotland in the union against its will ... If the United Kingdom is to continue it can only be by consent. And if Boris Johnson is confident in the case for the union then he should be confident enough to make that case and allow people to decide."

 

(Reporting by Elizabeth Piper; Editing by Emelia Sithole-Matarise)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-12-16

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[steve187]

she just wants to get in the history books, my personal thought is to repair Hadrian's wall, and put up border/customs posts, but that's just me. if they broke from the rest of the UK, they would never get back into the EU, for 1 they are not strong enough and 2 the EU will be no more

[colinneil]

Scotland held a referendum, and the people voted to stay.

Sturgeon thinks she is another Maggie, but she is not, just a glory seeker.

This situation is just the same as Brexit, we dont like the result so we want another referendum, maybe this time get a result we want.

[baboon]

19 minutes ago, steve187 said:

she just wants to get in the history books, my personal thought is to repair Hadrian's wall, and put up border/customs posts, but that's just me. if they broke from the rest of the UK, they would never get back into the EU, for 1 they are not strong enough and 2 the EU will be no more

Hadrian's Wall runs roughly between Newcastle and Carlisle. Do you want us out too and England  to be even smaller? I mean that's fine by me if the Scots will have we Geordies, but you are shrinking England somewhat...

[steve187]

1 minute ago, baboon said:

Hadrian's Wall runs roughly between Newcastle and Carlisle. Do you want us out too and England  to be even smaller? I mean that's fine by me if the Scots will have we Geordies, but you are shrinking England somewhat...

are Geordies English??

[Rookiescot]

26 minutes ago, colinneil said:

Scotland held a referendum, and the people voted to stay.

Sturgeon thinks she is another Maggie, but she is not, just a glory seeker.

This situation is just the same as Brexit, we dont like the result so we want another referendum, maybe this time get a result we want.

Things have changed since then.

[Rookiescot]

If you guys are so confident that Scotland should not leave the union then why dont you all put forward a positive case for Scotland to remain in the UK?

We can then put your convincing argument forward to the people of Scotland and you can win the referendum and kill off Scottish independence for the next 50 years.

[baboon]

6 minutes ago, steve187 said:

are Geordies English??

High time to get rid of us. And the Scouser thieves. And the Mancs. And the Welsh sheep shaggers. But you aren't left with much...

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

The little red haired woman is running scared of Boris and the UK making a success outside the EU. THAT is why she wants it urgently now, as if it works they will vote to stay. 

 

You do understand, don't you, that three quarters of Scotland don't want brexit full stop regardless of how successful it is? We also want nothing whatsoever to do with the nasty party, as demonstrated consistently since 1955.

Edited December 16, 2019 by RuamRudy

[steve187]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Things have changed since then.

Scotland has been part of the UK since 1707, a long long time before the EU was thought of, why has it been ok for all those years but now in less than a decade the need is a must, its just a few people thinking they are better than everyone else, one referendum in 300 years and now within a few years they want another one, the little red haired women just wants to be a queen

 

5 minutes ago, baboon said:

High time to get rid of us. And the Scouser thieves. And the Mancs. And the Welsh sheep shaggers. But you aren't left with much...

anything north of the watford gap can go, we will keep Wales as its my ancestry, and anyway its keeps the bad weather from England

[mercman24]

Scotland is as bad as Greece, bancrupt, with a debt of £2500 per head, only being kept afloat by Westminster, if they did get independance the EU would not have them back, her thinking is in the Corbyn league, she is on an ego trip. refer back to her recent tv interview, for the facts, she evaded all the pertinent questions

[baboon]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You do understand, don't you, that three quarters of Scotland don't want brexit full stop regardless of how successful it is? We also want nothing whatsoever to do with the nasty party, as demonstrated consistently since 1955.

Rudy - Sorry to go off topic, but what will the Scots do when turned down flat for another referendum. A genuine question.

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, steve187 said:

Scotland has been part of the UK since 1707, a long long time before the EU was thought of, why has it been ok for all those years but now in less than a decade the need is a must, its just a few people thinking they are better than everyone else, one referendum in 300 years and now within a few years they want another one, the little red haired women just wants to be a queen

 

anything north of the watford gap can go, we will keep Wales as its my ancestry, and anyway its keeps the bad weather from England

Probably because for most of the time the UK has existed the wants and needs of both parties were broadly aligned.

Now it seems Scotland and England are on very different paths. 

[cmarshall]

Johnson and the rest of the Tory extreme right will eventually allow a new Scottish referendum to get rid of the Labour voters of Scotland strengthening the Tory electoral grip on Little England, although the Scots haven't been voting Labour so much lately.  It's part of the Tory program of rebranding Britain as the New Cayman Islands of Europe.

 

While Scottish independence would be emotionally satisfying, they should only take that step if it also makes sense economically.  I understand that Westminster is paying Scottish pensions, which is why the older generation of Scots did not vote leave in 2014.  Can an independent Scotland afford to maintain its retirees?  After the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991, the pensioners suffered the most, ending up eat out of dumpsters.

 

It would have been better for Scotland to pursue independence while the North Sea oil production was still at peak twenty years ago.  They could have been another Norway, but they didn't go for it then.  

Edited December 16, 2019 by cmarshall

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

Scotland is as bad as Greece, bancrupt, with a debt of £2500 per head, only being kept afloat by Westminster, if they did get independance the EU would not have them back, her thinking is in the Corbyn league, she is on an ego trip. refer back to her recent tv interview, for the facts, she evaded all the pertinent questions

Well we wouldn't want to be a burden on the good folks south of the border.

Best we were on our way then.

[cmarshall]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

Probably because for most of the time the UK has existed the wants and needs of both parties were broadly aligned.

Now it seems Scotland and England are on very different paths. 

Or because union with England was forced on Scotland by Edward I and his successors.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, cmarshall said:

Johnson and the rest of the Tory extreme right will eventually allow a new Scottish referendum to get rid of the Labour voters of Scotland strengthening the Tory electoral grip on Little England, although the Scots haven't been voting Labour so much lately.  

 

While Scottish independence would be emotionally satisfying, they should only take that step if it also makes sense economically.  I understand that Westminster is paying Scottish pensions, which is why the older generation of Scots did not vote leave in 2014.  Can an independent Scotland afford to maintain its retirees?  After the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991, the pensioners suffered the most, ending up eat out of dumpsters.

 

It would have been better for Scotland to pursue independence while the North Sea oil production was still at peak twenty years ago.  They could have been another Norway, but they didn't go for it then.  

Upon independence those pensioners would still be paid by Westminster. Thats because they paid into the coffers of Westminster during their working careers.

[cmarshall]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Upon independence those pensioners would still be paid by Westminster. Thats because they paid into the coffers of Westminster during their working careers.

Wouldn't that depend on whatever agreement is reached between Scotland and the rump UK?  Is the Fleet still berthed at Scapa Flow?  Can the Scots get rent out of that?

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, baboon said:

Rudy - Sorry to go off topic, but what will the Scots do when turned down flat for another referendum. A genuine question.

There is a suggestion that a referendum may not be necessary, and that Scotland could secede the Union by legal means. The Claim of Right Act, for example, which was officially endorsed by Westminster, States that "the people of Scotland are sovereign and that they have the right to determine the best form of government for Scotland's needs".

 

The SNP have now won 3 elections on the promise of independence and the Scottish parliament passed a motion backing it. I am not fully familiar with the legal concepts, but I think they are key to such a move.

 

That said, I would much prefer that independence was achieved through majority support rather than by legal means.

 

And if none of that works, then agitate - propaganda and obfuscation to the max.

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, webfact said:

You cannot hold Scotland in the union against its will ... If the United Kingdom is to continue it can only be by consent. And if Boris Johnson is confident in the case for the union then he should be confident enough to make that case and allow people to decide."

Well said. 

[cmarshall]

When the Brexit <deleted> hits the fan, it will concentrate the Scots' mind wonderfully.  Added to the Tory desire to be rid of a pack of Labour voters, the only problem remains how to avoid the blame for breaking up the union.  But then the man now firmly in charge is uniquely talented at avoiding blame.

[Bluespunk]

38 minutes ago, baboon said:

Hadrian's Wall runs roughly between Newcastle and Carlisle. Do you want us out too and England  to be even smaller? I mean that's fine by me if the Scots will have we Geordies, but you are shrinking England somewhat...

So a little England for the little englanders? How appropriate. 

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

Scotland is as bad as Greece, bancrupt, with a debt of £2500 per head, only being kept afloat by Westminster, if they did get independance the EU would not have them back, her thinking is in the Corbyn league, she is on an ego trip. refer back to her recent tv interview, for the facts, she evaded all the pertinent questions

If you believe the above to be true, why do you think Westminster has not jettisoned us long before now? 

 

A £15 billion a year drain on the economy, especially such an ungrateful one, is a hell of a burden in these constrained times. 

[steve187]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You do understand, don't you, that three quarters of Scotland don't want brexit full stop regardless of how successful it is? We also want nothing whatsoever to do with the nasty party, as demonstrated consistently since 1955.

it was 62% of the people that voted, and only 68% voted, out of 3,987,112 people eligible to vote only 2,711,136 did vote and only 1,680,966 voted to leave, so 2,306,146 didn't  vote to leave, some 57.87%, so the minority controlling the majority.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, steve187 said:

it was 62% of the people that voted, and only 68% voted, out of 3,987,112 people eligible to vote only 2,711,136 did vote and only 1,680,966 voted to leave, so 2,306,146 didn't  vote to leave, some 57.87%, so the minority controlling the majority.

Subsequent polling shows support for the EU now at 74%.

 

But using your own argument, only 37% of the UK voted in favour of Brexit. 

[cmarshall]

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

But using your own argument, only 37% of the UK voted in favour of Brexit. 

Which why the Brexit vote was a brazen scam from the beginning.  A higher percentage of the referendum in 1974 approved entering the EU.  So, an honest referendum would not have permitted overturning the original referendum vote by a smaller percentage.

 

What's more since the Brexit referendum was to change the status quo those who abstained from voting should have been counted as against Brexit.  It should have required a majority of the British electorate, not merely of the voters.

 

So, a big swindle right from the start in every respect.  

Edited December 16, 2019 by cmarshall

[mrmicbkktxl]

1 hour ago, colinneil said:

Scotland held a referendum, and the people voted to stay.

Sturgeon thinks she is another Maggie, but she is not, just a glory seeker.

This situation is just the same as Brexit, we dont like the result so we want another referendum, maybe this time get a result we want.

That was before Brexit,so things changed since then.Anyway Scotland can't remain in EU after Brexit.They need go out first and then apply again,but I don't think the EU will let Scotland join Spain will be against it,because if they let Scotland join the Catalan want the same,and that won't happen.At least not in the near future

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, mrmicbkktxl said:

That was before Brexit,so things changed since then.Anyway Scotland can't remain in EU after Brexit.They need go out first and then apply again,but I don't think the EU will let Scotland join Spain will be against it,because if they let Scotland join the Catalan want the same,and that won't happen.At least not in the near future

Of course it will depend on the Spanish government of the day, but the current Foreign Secretary has stated that Spain would have no objection to Scotland joining the EU

If it left the UK by lawful means, i.e. no universal declaration of independence. 

[JonnyF]

54 minutes ago, baboon said:

Rudy - Sorry to go off topic, but what will the Scots do when turned down flat for another referendum. A genuine question.

Not much they can do except huff and puff.

 

Parliament is sovereign and Parliament will say No, unfortunately.  They had their chance and they voted to stay with the UK. 

[kamahele]

1 hour ago, colinneil said:

Scotland held a referendum, and the people voted to stay.

Sturgeon thinks she is another Maggie, but she is not, just a glory seeker.

This situation is just the same as Brexit, we dont like the result so we want another referendum, maybe this time get a result we want.

Yes, and now they want another one as the first one was held with the belief that the UK would remain in the EU. This is why voting is done periodically in a democracy.