Rice Crop Profitability

[euca]

Anybody done any sums recently on current Rice Crop Profitability?  I am thinking of  Khao Hom Mali in Issan but anyone's figures on sale price less all expenditures would be interesting to read.  Thanks.

[ireckonso]

Good luck, never met anyone here that has any idea of their ROI.

[IsaanAussie]

I have posted detailed numbers several times, as have others. Run a few searches for rice prices etc..

Remember for most small holding farms the objective is to grow rice to feed the family, not to make a living as a rice farmer. The paddy rice output is divided into 3 uses, food, next years seed, and sale of any residual. Paddy HM105 rice is sold for around 12-14 baht per kg. Milled rice can be purchased for around 20 baht per kg. Milling loss is 30-35%. Local miller will process your rice for free and he keeps the bran and germ which he will sell to pig farms for 12 odd baht per kg.

Contracted prices per step will be known per rai if you ask nicely. Herbicide/spraying, plough, broadcast or seeder, pre-emergent herbicide, two applications of fertiliser, a few days of handweeding, harvester costs, drying if needed and rebagging, transport and storage. Add price of seed rice if needed. Note: new seed should be used every 3 years.

[kingofthemountain]

1 hour ago, euca said:

Anybody done any sums recently on current Rice Crop Profitability?  I am thinking of  Khao Hom Mali in Issan but anyone's figures on sale price less all expenditures would be interesting to read.  Thanks.

My advice, don't do it !!

 

i have tried some years ago, as a foreigner you can not in a legal way own the land and work on it

so you are fully dependent of the persons who own the land and the ones who work on it.

 

I mean there is no written accounting and most of the things are done from mouth to ear

in the country side, beetwen people from the same family or who know each other very well

since very long time. You are definitively an outsider and ''out of the game'' here

then you never can know the exact and real situation plus you have 0 possibility to influence

decision-making. Usualy your attention and help is required if there are financial losses.

 

Don't expect any financial benefit.

 

If you have a lot of free time and a lot of money to throw away, it should be an interesting experience

 

Good luck

 

[ireckonso]

2 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

I have posted detailed numbers several times, as have others. Run a few searches for rice prices etc.

What does the sale price of rice have to do with actual production costs and ROI ??? Oh gee i got 10 bags (unknown kg per bag) of rice per rai this year and sold it and made money but i didnt keep any records of what i spent to grow it. Typical thai farming logic at its best.

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, ireckonso said:

What does the sale price of rice have to do with actual production costs and ROI ??? Oh gee i got 10 bags (unknown kg per bag) of rice per rai this year and sold it and made money but i didnt keep any records of what i spent to grow it. Typical thai farming logic at its best.

Really want me to answer that?

The typical Thai farmer takes a very practical view, he has to feed his family for minimum cost. So if he can grow it for less than buying at the local shop, he wins. If he can get inputs on credit until he sells his surplus and cover those costs regardless of interest rate, he wins. 

Couple that with the basic "live for today" culture most Thais have and there seems little point in keeping score. Growing rice is just something you do, you succeed or not, rice to eat and to plant today, or not. If not tomorrow will take care of itself. We westerners are the ones fixated on budgets.

[farmerjo]

While on rice,I/A did the government come good with the trichoderma for the farmers down your way after the rice blast last season.

 

[IsaanAussie]

31 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

While on rice,I/A did the government come good with the trichoderma for the farmers down your way after the rice blast last season.

 

Haven't heard yet but there was an announcement over the village PA this afternoon. I didn't hear past the mention of rice and government. Will let you know.

 

[ireckonso]

2 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

Growing rice is just something you do, you succeed or not, rice to eat and to plant today, or not.

In other words you have no idea how much you make or lose from growing rice lol now thats farming in thailand.

Edited January 22, 2020 by ireckonso
addition

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, ireckonso said:

In other words you have no idea how much you make or lose from growing rice lol now thats farming in thailand.

Your "in other words" conclusion is incorrect, I have a very good idea. Pity you cannot grasp the concept of family funds that applies here, perhaps in time. I freely admit to having thought I was being ripped off for years but now understand how it works. In bottom line terms I made a paper profit of over 10K baht and have next years seed and enough to eat for this year. 

[kingofthemountain]

32 minutes ago, ireckonso said:

In other words you have no idea how much you make or lose from growing rice lol now thats farming in thailand.

By experience farming, whatever the part of the world where you are

is not an exact science because you are dependent  on things  you

can't control, the most important is the climate.

 

Growing rice is particularly difficult because you are very dependent from

the water, from the rain and/or by irrigation. Plus the sunshine, the wind

( a few strong gusts of wind are enough to lay the ears and spoil an entire harvest)

or others totally unpredictables naturals elements.

 

Seeds and fertilizers are also important variables.

 

Plus the cost of labor, the cost of the material and so on

 

It's very difficult to have regular datas on small lands.

It's probably more easy for big companies with hundreds of ''rais''

but it's not the topic here. 

 

It's why it's very rare to know exactly the ROI on a land

it's depends of the year and of dozens of others things

 

As Issanaussie has posted, if you are lucky you have rice for eat

and few thousand bahts at the end.

If you are not lucky, well AFAIK there is still some subventions

from the governement but i am not sure at all it's enough to cover your loss.

 

The ''good old time'' of the rice scheme with a rice bought to the farmers

at a good price by Taksin (The sister) goverment is long over

Edited January 22, 2020 by kingofthemountain

[ireckonso]

Okay thailand always claims to be the top exporter of rice in the world except the last couple of years but you come up with every excuse in the world to say its impossible to say what a rai of rice will return on x amount of investment. too funny. But i guess thats why every year the poor farmers are going to the gov. with hat in hand because they are not making any money. Yeah farming is profitable in thailand.

[ireckonso]

3 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

We westerners are the ones fixated on budgets.

By the way us westerners are concerned about making a profit to better our families lives, not laying in a hammock most of the year waiting for a gov handout.

[kingofthemountain]

1 minute ago, ireckonso said:

Okay thailand always claims to be the top exporter of rice in the world except the last couple of years but you come up with every excuse in the world to say its impossible to say what a rai of rice will return on x amount of investment. too funny. But i guess thats why every year the poor farmers are going to the gov. with hat in hand because they are not making any money. Yeah farming is profitable in thailand.

Thailand has lost his place of top exporter of rice some years ago

and it's worse years after years.

Climate change, increased labor costs and fertilizer, and 

the desinterest of the youngers generations for something demanding

a lot of work for an hypotetical small benefice is killing it.

All over the country you can see fallow fields

there is thousands of rai for sale

some have already changed for other cultivation  like corn or sugar cane

(With now the problem of air pollution because of the burning)

[ireckonso]

Vietnam seems to be doing quite well growing rice but they work hard and are open to new technology and foreign expertise. 

[kingofthemountain]

27 minutes ago, ireckonso said:

Okay thailand always claims to be the top exporter of rice in the world except the last couple of years but you come up with every excuse in the world to say its impossible to say what a rai of rice will return on x amount of investment. too funny. But i guess thats why every year the poor farmers are going to the gov. with hat in hand because they are not making any money. Yeah farming is profitable in thailand.

The problem is much more complex than that.

 

If your question is ''as a westerner, is it good to invest some money in rice farming to do a living?'' my answer is no,

 

And you are right in your last sentence usualy rice farming is not profitable in Thailand

or at least not enough profitable considering the risk, the work and the money involved.

 

But farming is profitable in a way for Thai farmers, because the farmers are

rarely investissors or owners, they only work on the land and pay a rent to the owner, and the owners of the land aren't also inverstissors, usualy the land is in the family since ages. When the farmer is the owner, is in most of the case on the family land, so the price of the land don't enter in the ROI, if it was, the ROI should be negative or catastrophic.

 

And farming is good for Thailand, because it's keep millions of people in the rural areas.

And all the services, small shops, schools. dispensary and so on going with it.

It's also where most of the old people are, so the country don't have to give a lot

in pension or invest in retirment homes,

 

Bangkok has already 15 millions of citizens, they don't want (They can't anyway) anymore.

 

It's also something important to consider

 

And it's why the farmers still have subventions from the governement.

They are more than farmers. they participe to the country equilibre

Edited January 22, 2020 by kingofthemountain

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

The problem is much more complex than that.

If your question is ''as a westerner, is it good to invest some money in rice farming to do a living?''

my answer is no, And yu are right in your last sentence usualy rice farming is not profitable in Thailand

or at least not enough profitable considering the risk, the work and the money involved.

But farming is profitable in a way for Thai farmers, Because the first one are

rarely investissors, they only work on the land and pay a rent to the owner, and the owners of the

land isn't also an inverstissor, usualy the land is in the family since ages.

And farming is good for Thailand, because it's keep millions of people in the rural areas.

Bangkok has already 15 millions of citizens, they don't want (They can't anyway) anymore.

It's also something important to consider

Not to mention,

If all the farmers in the world gave up farming because it wasn't profitable or the work was too hard, we'd all be really hungry.

Edited January 22, 2020 by BritManToo

[EVENKEEL]

For the farmers with small plots I think it's a way of feeding the family, it's tradition. I was up there for about 7 yrs during my off rotation from work. The money that it cost to plant and harvest made it seem like a loosing endeavor but they knew the quality of the rice, knew what pesticides were used if any. I never saw them spraying.

[kingofthemountain]

19 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Not to mention,

If all the farmers in the world gave up farming because it wasn't profitable or the work was too hard, we'd all be really hungry.

In fact now with the mechanization and the intensive farming

only few people are required to work on very big lands.

If you look at the farming evolution in europe or in usa in the last 50 years it's 

always bigger lands, less people on it and more production

I am not sure it's a real progress but as you said there is a lot

of people to feed, so it's not really a choice.

Thailand farming is in a transitional phase

from a traditionnal familial agriculture on small lands

to an industrial one on big lands. 

In the north some people buy the small lands when they are side by side

and when it's big enough, it's bought by companies with chinese money and shareholders

[ireckonso]

Its called economy of scale, I would rather have many small farms with the average people making money but with going on 8 billion people to feed small scale farming is long gone. I have 160 acres back home I lease out because I cant make any money on it after the expense of everything to farm it i am working for free. The family I lease to farm over 10000 acres. If you are not planting a minimum of 3000 acres its just not worth it. Thailand needs to wake up and realize these little postage size plots of lands are a waste of time, money and effort.

[kingofthemountain]

15 minutes ago, ireckonso said:

Its called economy of scale, I would rather have many small farms with the average people making money but with going on 8 billion people to feed small scale farming is long gone. I have 160 acres back home I lease out because I cant make any money on it after the expense of everything to farm it i am working for free. The family I lease to farm over 10000 acres. If you are not planting a minimum of 3000 acres its just not worth it. Thailand needs to wake up and realize these little postage size plots of lands are a waste of time, money and effort.

Yes you are right

 

but as i said it's a political choice 

 

they are not ready at all in anyway for a massive population exodus from the rural areas

to few big cities, already saturated and where there is no work for everyone.

 

So they act in a Thai way, doing nothing untill

the problem is here, and then triyng to resolve it

(And usualy it's too late)

 

On the other hand the chineses have already started to take

some solid positions on the ground.

Edited January 22, 2020 by kingofthemountain

[BritManToo]

38 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

In fact now with the mechanization and the intensive farming

only few people are required to work on very big lands.

That's great if you want all your food supplied by MonSanto.

[farmerjo]

16 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

That's great if you want all your food supplied by MonSanto.

That's a perception,those who keep up with technology which is pretty much all the big farmers use very little rates of chemicals.

But they are still needed. 

[ireckonso]

17 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

That's great if you want all your food supplied by MonSanto.

Who else can feed 8 billion people with arable land disappearing at massive rates every year, going to grow everything organic (pipe dream) ? Its real easy for us in wealthier countries who can afford expensive organic food to say monsanto who is now bayer are the bad guys but the reality is if I live in a poor country i will take any food I can afford gmo or not.

[BritManToo]

27 minutes ago, ireckonso said:

Who else can feed 8 billion people with arable land disappearing at massive rates every year, going to grow everything organic (pipe dream) ? Its real easy for us in wealthier countries who can afford expensive organic food to say monsanto who is now bayer are the bad guys but the reality is if I live in a poor country i will take any food I can afford gmo or not.

Your argument would be more convincing if Monsanto didn't sell sterile seed.

I know several wheat farmers in the UK, they can't save seed from their crops to plant next year, as it's sterile.

They are obliged to buy new seed every year.

Edited January 22, 2020 by BritManToo

[kingofthemountain]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

That's great if you want all your food supplied by MonSanto.

It's not great at all indeed

unfortunately it's not a choice at the moment

there is too much people to feed on earth and

most of these people have very little money each day for buy food.

The first thing to do it's to restrain the natality, but it's not really a popular

project in a lot of countries

and i am afraid we start now to be a little bit off topic

Edited January 22, 2020 by kingofthemountain

[ireckonso]

ITS BAYER NOT MONSANTO NOW. Do you even have a clue why that seed is sterile ??? Do you understand with the environmental changes we have made to the earth the last 100 years new seed viruses-bacterial infections - blights etc. are constantly evolving ??? So that seed you saved from last year now has no resistance to new diseases, now you plant it and your crop fails and the world starves. Wake up to the reality of our ever changing environment ! Why did some rice farmers get blight this year and others didnt ??? Their seed had no resistance to it while farmers who used blight resistant seed strains had no problems. Try planting a crop without using pesticides and see what your yield is, that is if it even survives until maturity. Its too late to go back to our childhoods when things were simple and there were not 8 billion people to feed. I dont like it but its REALITY !!!

[kingofthemountain]

7 minutes ago, ireckonso said:

ITS BAYER NOT MONSANTO NOW. Do you even have a clue why that seed is sterile ??? Do you understand with the environmental changes we have made to the earth the last 100 years new seed viruses-bacterial infections - blights etc. are constantly evolving ??? So that seed you saved from last year now has no resistance to new diseases, now you plant it and your crop fails and the world starves. Wake up to the reality of our ever changing environment ! Why did some rice farmers get blight this year and others didnt ??? Their seed had no resistance to it while farmers who used blight resistant seed strains had no problems. Try planting a crop without using pesticides and see what your yield is, that is if it even survives until maturity. Its too late to go back to our childhoods when things were simple and there were not 8 billion people to feed. I dont like it but its REALITY !!!

Are you saying the bio farming, wich doesn't use chimicals pesticides at all

doesn't exist just because it's not possible?

 

I agree about 2 facts

Actualy another way can't feed the actual too numerous earth population

another way means less profits for international firms like Bayern

 

but this another way is more respectful of the environment

(As you said a lot of damage have already been done in the last 100 years)

it's a more sustainable and human production model

 

What is going to happen if in your example the fantastic Bayern firm can't provide

for some reasons seed resistant enough in 2 or 3 years? It's a crazy race where the 

polluter provide the antidote.

All for the money.

 

[ireckonso]

Yes it is a race and like all races you never know if you will win or not. Right now they are. Bayer and Syngenta are not the only ones working on these problems, governments, universities, private biotech companies are all contributing research to come up with new tech to combat crop disease/pest problems. The sequencing of the seed genome years ago was a major step forward, now with the crispr cas9 gene editing technology they can really effect change much faster than ever before. Are they making money ? They wouldnt be in business if they were not. R&D isnt cheap, but consider food has never been more plentiful or cheaper in the history of mankind, is that so bad for people ? BIo Farming ? if it works so well why isnt it being done on a large scale ? Like organics yeah you can feed some people with it at a much higher cost and much lower yield per area utilized, but who decides who gets this food and who goes without ? Sometimes reality is not palatable but it is what it is. Im sure the guy who leases from me doesnt like paying 350 usd for a bag of one shot seed corn but he knows in the end he will make money and produce a lot of corn to feed the world. By the way the average corn yield per acre in my area is approx. 176 bushels, try getting that from your bio farming or organic growing.

[BritManToo]

9 hours ago, ireckonso said:

ITS BAYER NOT MONSANTO NOW. Do you even have a clue why that seed is sterile ??? Do you understand with the environmental changes we have made to the earth the last 100 years new seed viruses-bacterial infections - blights etc. are constantly evolving ??? So that seed you saved from last year now has no resistance to new diseases, now you plant it and your crop fails and the world starves.

I'm not that bothered about organic farming, but always thought it was a bit short sighted, for the human race, to design and sell plants that can't reproduce. Designing sterile seeds is one of the biggest aims of genetic modification, it means you can sell the same product every year.

Edited January 23, 2020 by BritManToo