Is Thailand Going Down In Flames?

[thohts]

I decided to 'jump ship' from Thailand right after the military coup, just to be sure. It's been a few months now, but I continue to read an increasing number of articles and posts about how Thailand is not only more unwelcoming to foreigners, but is harming itself even more than before.

Needless to say, Thailand is a much less predictable place than it was before.

Excuse the dramatic title (and I don't mean to sound like a troll), but what do you think? Is Thailand on a path to self-destruction or are the recent hiccups only a temporary roadside attraction in the annals of history?

[Pattayatony]

I decided to 'jump ship' from Thailand right after the military coup, just to be sure. It's been a few months now, but I continue to read an increasing number of articles and posts about how Thailand is not only more unwelcoming to foreigners, but is harming itself even more than before.

Needless to say, Thailand is a much less predictable place than it was before.

Excuse the dramatic title (and I don't mean to sound like a troll), but what do you think? Is Thailand on a path to self-destruction or are the recent hiccups only a temporary roadside attraction in the annals of history?

Thailand is a Third world country that is going backwards at a fast rate.

[bendix]

So many questions . .so many questions? Why did you jump ship, and to where did you jump?

Had you stayed around you would know that it's pretty much business as normal. The great political game being played out barely touches the lives of farangs and the so-called anti-foreigner sentiment is nothing more than a tightening of business ownership laws which - frankly - do more than bring Thailand in line with international norms.

Even the much-maligned visa tightening was done before the coup, not after and that also was a closing of loopholes.

Thailand is NOT on a path to self-destruction. It will be here long after you and I disappear. What is going on is no more than random political turmoil in a tumultuous part of the world.

If there are fewer tourists around (and I don't see much evidence of that) it's purely a result of the strong baht which is nothing to do with Thailand or anti-farang sentiment.

[bendix]

Thailand is a Third world country that is going backwards at a fast rate.

Based on what evidence? Industrial output? Economic growth? A weak currency? Massively declining visitor numbers? International competitiveness? An isolationist foreign policy a la North Korea?

Sure, democracy has been temporarily suspended but - frankly - that doesnt seem to have harmed the likes of Hong Kong or Singapore in recent years.

If your measure of going backwards is that your Beer Chang costs a bit more due to a strong baht, then so be it.

[midas]

I decided to 'jump ship' from Thailand right after the military coup, just to be sure. It's been a few months now, but I continue to read an increasing number of articles and posts about how Thailand is not only more unwelcoming to foreigners, but is harming itself even more than before.

Needless to say, Thailand is a much less predictable place than it was before.

Excuse the dramatic title (and I don't mean to sound like a troll), but what do you think? Is Thailand on a path to self-destruction or are the recent hiccups only a temporary roadside attraction in the annals of history?

yes it is an overly dramatic title. Thailand will always have an appeal to some and ( for better or worse )

the Russians can come here very easily. I just think it has lost its edge and will have to work harder

to sort itself out to compete with some of its neighboring countries

[Phil Conners]

The great political game being played out barely touches the lives of farangs and the so-called anti-foreigner sentiment is nothing more than a tightening of business ownership laws which - frankly - do more than bring Thailand in line with international norms.

Where do you get all that nonsense from that you keep posting? Thailands extreme restrictions "more in line with international norms"? Perhaps norms from North Korea, Burma and similar places. I can open companies and buy land in almost any country on this planet except for a few irrelevant 3rd world countries in south east asia.

Thailand is NOT on a path to self-destruction. It will be here long after you and I disappear. What is going on is no more than random political turmoil in a tumultuous part of the world.

You could say the same about Burma and Phillipines

Edited April 4, 2007 by Phil Conners

[cdnvic]

Thailand is going through a period of adjustment that isn't much different than in times past when coups happened. The difference now is that the roads are better (though not perfect), communications are easier, the food is safer, and the frontiers are relatively civilized and under control.

If you want real perspective, compare it to 15 years ago, rather than last year.

[Heng]

(LOL at Bendix's comment about the price of beer.... got some quick on the clicker posters here).

Edited April 4, 2007 by Heng

[bendix]

The great political game being played out barely touches the lives of farangs and the so-called anti-foreigner sentiment is nothing more than a tightening of business ownership laws which - frankly - do more than bring Thailand in line with international norms.

Where do you get all that nonsense from that you keep posting? Thailands extreme restrictions "more in line with international norms"? Perhaps norms from North Korea, Burma and similar places. I can open companies and buy land in almost any country on this planet except for a few irrelevant 3rd world countries in south east asia.

OK . perhaps I should have said 'regional norms'. Fair enough.

The reasons we can't buy land are well understood and perfectly reasonable. Foreigners would price locals out. The land ownership laws are there to protect Thai's, not us. How unreasonable.

Why is it that the most vociferous whingers about modern life, always seem to live in Pattaya?

[OlRedEyes]

The great political game being played out barely touches the lives of farangs and the so-called anti-foreigner sentiment is nothing more than a tightening of business ownership laws which - frankly - do more than bring Thailand in line with international norms.

Where do you get all that nonsense from that you keep posting? Thailands extreme restrictions "more in line with international norms"? Perhaps norms from North Korea, Burma and similar places. I can open companies and buy land in almost any country on this planet except for a few irrelevant 3rd world countries in south east asia.

Bendix lives in a little bubble of his own, his pretty harmless though....

[Tilokarat]

Thailand has had many coups in its past. It has had long periods of military rule too. This might not be pleasant, but it does not mean that the country is going down the tubes. There are enough Thais who understand democracy, and oppose military rule of the past variety, to ensure the country will be a welcome place for foreigners to live and work, and remain a good place for investors. And Thailand is moving forward. Some might say that the free trade agreement with Japan is a bad thing just like many people said NAFTA would be bad for Canada. On the other hand, the agreement might just keep the Thai economy progressing.

Compared to the governments in neighbouring, and regional countries, like Burma, Laos, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Vietnam, China and Cambodia, Thailand comes off pretty well indeed.

No-one would dispute the fact that Thailand has a number of problems. Whether or not its so-called anti-farang stance is on the rise or not, one could argue that Thailand still has a long way to go to reach the anti-U.S. attitude displayed by a country like Canada. Moreover, non-white Canadians do get attacked on the streets in a way that might rival the way a few farangs get knocked on the head in Thailand.

It is okay to point out problems, all countries and people have them, but some people seem to have a tendency to exaggerate shortcomings in Thailand to a point that almost verges on hysteria.

Take it easy, do not think too much!

[andook]

Thailand is going through a period of adjustment that isn't much different than in times past when coups happened. The difference now is that the roads are better (though not perfect), communications are easier, the food is safer, and the frontiers are relatively civilized and under control.

If you want real perspective, compare it to 15 years ago, rather than last year.

Agreed. A little bit of historical perspective required here. Thailand has been "going downhill" as long as I've been coming here, according the doom merchants...

Political fiascos and coups aside; Thailand has improved drastically in the last 15 years like cdnvic and bendix rightly point out.

[bendix]

You know what ol red eyes. I take your point and I know people think I am an arrogant s-o-b. Perhaps I am. Perhaps I live in a bubble.

But I'm prepared to accept what is good about this place I have chosen to be my home and NOT focus only on the negatives (of which there are plenty).

I get sick and tired of hearing people whinging about stuff they can't change. So there sex-haven is changing . . big deal. No, more than that . . GOOD. I don't want to live in a place that attracts the kind of people who's idea of paradise is based 90% on access to cheap women, and 10% to cheap beer.

People complain about business and land restrictions. OK, it's tough. But if as people say it is easy to do that in other countries, what is to stop people doing that, and still living in Thailand to enjoy the benefits?

My point . . . . Stop complaining. Stop whinging. Stop bellyaching. Stop taking our personal frustrations and extrapolating them onto the country we make our home.

We have a choice to live here or leave here. We can't change it cos we're not in the political process. We have the freedome to move on when we want.

Thais must listen to us whinge and wonder what they hel_l we find so appealing about the place if all we do is moan and complain. And they must wonder . . "ummmm . . .so why do they stay?"

[cdnvic]

It is okay to point out problems, all countries and people have them, but some people seem to have a tendency to exaggerate shortcomings in Thailand to a point that almost verges on hysteria.

Words of wisdom that should be posted on the sign-up page.

[ThaiGoon]

It is okay to point out problems, all countries and people have them, but some people seem to have a tendency to exaggerate shortcomings in Thailand to a point that almost verges on hysteria.

Anyway I hope Thailand is indeed going down in flames like the OP said....as a destination for all the paedo's and the so called "weird retirees".

And Bendix, here's :D to you.

[JR Texas]

I decided to 'jump ship' from Thailand right after the military coup, just to be sure. It's been a few months now, but I continue to read an increasing number of articles and posts about how Thailand is not only more unwelcoming to foreigners, but is harming itself even more than before.

Needless to say, Thailand is a much less predictable place than it was before.

Excuse the dramatic title (and I don't mean to sound like a troll), but what do you think? Is Thailand on a path to self-destruction or are the recent hiccups only a temporary roadside attraction in the annals of history?

yes it is an overly dramatic title. Thailand will always have an appeal to some and ( for better or worse )

the Russians can come here very easily. I just think it has lost its edge and will have to work harder

to sort itself out to compete with some of its neighboring countries

JR Texas: Thailand has been going downhill at least since 2000. The Toxin administration accelerated the decline with crazy changes to the visa and business rules and regulations. He also famed the flames of xenophobia. Unfortunately, his policies and ideas are still here, even though he is outside of the country.

A major factor in the decline was and continues to be the attack on expats that are not rich. The rich only make up a small fraction of expats, probably less than 1% of the total. It is a huge miscalculation to focus tourism and business incentives on rich expats that are small in number (and who do not, on average, stay in the Kingdom a long time).

The vast majority of expats are not rich, stay in the Kingdom a long time (or used to), and spend money daily. They are getting upset with many of the changes........they are looking for alternatives to LOS. And why not? They have been repeatedly attacked, directly or indirectly by the visa/business rules and regulations......good and decent people have been hurt and families torn apart.

The Chinese and Russians are offsetting some of the shortfall in business........but as the global economy declines further, they will not be able to keep the ship afloat. Thailand is shooting itself in the foot, feeling the pain, and then shooting itself again and again in the foot. They will never admit to a mistake, so we can anticipate more of the same.

The solution is to reverse all of the visa/business rules and regulation changes that have occurred since 2000. Then facilitate the creation of small businesses (e.g., remove the 4-1 Thai to farang employment rule and let farangs own businesses 100%).....and start creating a level playing field so that competition can be introduced into the economy.

But the last thing that those at the top want is competition............so, it will likely just get worse....too bad as it used to be a nice place......on the other side, the new guys moving here have no idea what it used to be like, so to them it might seem great (especially Russians and Chinese newbies)....most of the older guys (that are not blinded by the need to sell real estate) know that something special has been lost.

[ThaiGoon]

JRTexas is either in Cambodia right now or gonna be there soon. I bet (and hope).

[jdinasia]

Seems that when the OP says he "jumped ship" 6+ months ago ... he's expecting a 'yes'

Cleaning up some loose ends is a good thing here! Thailand has the right to try and approach its immigration policies however they want.

I still find life here far more safe ... more comfortable ... and more laid back than anywhere in the West.

[Hobox]

Had you stayed around you would know that it's pretty much business as normal. The great political game being played out barely touches the lives of farangs and the so-called anti-foreigner sentiment is nothing more than a tightening of business ownership laws which - frankly - do more than bring Thailand in line with international norms.

Even the much-maligned visa tightening was done before the coup, not after and that also was a closing of loopholes.

Thailand is NOT on a path to self-destruction. It will be here long after you and I disappear. What is going on is no more than random political turmoil in a tumultuous part of the world.

If there are fewer tourists around (and I don't see much evidence of that) it's purely a result of the strong baht which is nothing to do with Thailand or anti-farang sentiment.

What Thailand are you talking about?

My Thailand is going headfirst into a wall. Tourists get treated like dirt at immigration, rules change quicker then I can type them, police corruption escalating, locals are getting worse at english (and I don't mean the bargirls now, I mean in banks, customer service and so on), etc etc

During my 8 years here now, 2007 have started out real bad and for the first time I have made plans to pack up and leave. Just not clear where yet, maybe to the Phillipines or Cambodia.

[bendix]

2007 have started out real bad and for the first time I have made plans to pack up and leave. Just not clear where yet, maybe to the Phillipines or Cambodia.

. . . where, no doubt, you will find things so much better than here. Good luck.

[Hobox]

2007 have started out real bad and for the first time I have made plans to pack up and leave. Just not clear where yet, maybe to the Phillipines or Cambodia.

. . . where, no doubt, you will find things so much better than here. Good luck.

At least the Philippines doesn't have the censorship problem we have here, check this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=114443

[ThaiGoon]

Man, at this rate, the population in Cambodia will probably double up soon!! And, given what Thailand has (or had) experienced, I feel kind of sorry for that country... Good luck to you, Cambodia (and the Philippines).

[cdnvic]

During my 8 years here now, 2007 have started out real bad and for the first time I have made plans to pack up and leave. Just not clear where yet, maybe to the Phillipines or Cambodia.

Out of the smoke and into the flames.

[jdinasia]

Had you stayed around you would know that it's pretty much business as normal. The great political game being played out barely touches the lives of farangs and the so-called anti-foreigner sentiment is nothing more than a tightening of business ownership laws which - frankly - do more than bring Thailand in line with international norms.

Even the much-maligned visa tightening was done before the coup, not after and that also was a closing of loopholes.

Thailand is NOT on a path to self-destruction. It will be here long after you and I disappear. What is going on is no more than random political turmoil in a tumultuous part of the world.

If there are fewer tourists around (and I don't see much evidence of that) it's purely a result of the strong baht which is nothing to do with Thailand or anti-farang sentiment.

What Thailand are you talking about?

My Thailand is going headfirst into a wall. Tourists get treated like dirt at immigration, rules change quicker then I can type them, police corruption escalating, locals are getting worse at english (and I don't mean the bargirls now, I mean in banks, customer service and so on), etc etc

During my 8 years here now, 2007 have started out real bad and for the first time I have made plans to pack up and leave. Just not clear where yet, maybe to the Phillipines or Cambodia.

If you have been here 8 years ..... why would English in a Thai bank be of any importance to you? <<I always find the language question for long timers amusing! Like a Thai or French or Chinese would cry about living in the USA and the people at the bank speaking less French or Thai or Chinese than before!>>

Tourists ... you know the folks that go on vacation for a few weeks or a month ... maybe even 2 ... are not getting treated worse at all.

Police corruption WORSE? don't see any evidence that it is getting worse .. the situation may even be improving!

[Hobox]

Out of the smoke and into the flames.

At least it's a fresh start

Always loved the Phil, but never really had the courage to stay there longer then 2 weeks, but the lasst couple of times it feels like they are improving rapidly. It's anyway a huge difference between Phil today and '96/'97

[Wolfie]

Whilst this thread has been relatively civilised i would like to request things stay civilised . Please don't let this thread degenerate into a Thailand bashing thread (you know what happens to those kinds of threads) nor let this thread turn into an attack against the OP.

Apologies for interrupting, normal service will resume now

[JR Texas]

JRTexas is either in Cambodia right now or gonna be there soon. I bet (and hope).

JR Texas: Curious why you would say that about me. I told readers what I think is true based on decades of experience in this part of the world. The evidence is overwhelming that a decline has taken place.

I think that people that can't seen the decline fall into three categories:

1) people that are grandfathered in and have too much to lose and no other place to go (the love LOS or leave it crowd....aka, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil crowd),

2) people that are heavily invested in real estate and are seeing the value of their properties decline (yes, some in certain locations are still making money, so no need to throw flames), and

3) people that have only lived here a short time and have no perspective on the long term changes that have taken place

By the way, Cambodia is still messed up, but the visa rules are much easier than Thailand.......not sure about business rules, and the infrastructure still needs a lot of improvement........Sihanoukville is a potential gold mine....the next Pattaya....but a lot of changes will have to take place to make it happen. I do not live in Cambodia. And I love Thailand........that is why I want to see positive changes....

[ThaiGoon]

2007 have started out real bad and for the first time I have made plans to pack up and leave. Just not clear where yet, maybe to the Phillipines or Cambodia.

. . . where, no doubt, you will find things so much better than here. Good luck.

Hobox is moving to the Philippines because he can't stand corruption here! I'm sure he will find it a paradise that's so free of corruption over there!! Oh my...

Edited April 4, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[ThaiGoon]

JR Texas: Curious why you would say that about me. I told readers what I think is true based on decades of experience in this part of the world. The evidence is overwhelming that a decline has taken place.

Yeah, I'm sure Thailand's been declining since 2000 for a certain group of people. You are right.

By the way, from my own observations, there are two groups of people who are constant doom merchants on here:

1. People who can't hack it in Thailand (as cdnvic's put it somewhere)

and

2. People who are gravely affected by strong Baht.

Edited April 4, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[jdinasia]

JRTexas is either in Cambodia right now or gonna be there soon. I bet (and hope).

JR Texas: Curious why you would say that about me. I told readers what I think is true based on decades of experience in this part of the world. The evidence is overwhelming that a decline has taken place.

I think that people that can't seen the decline fall into three categories:

1) people that are grandfathered in and have too much to lose and no other place to go (the love LOS or leave it crowd....aka, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil crowd),

2) people that are heavily invested in real estate and are seeing the value of their properties decline (yes, some in certain locations are still making money, so no need to throw flames), and

3) people that have only lived here a short time and have no perspective on the long term changes that have taken place

By the way, Cambodia is still messed up, but the visa rules are much easier than Thailand.......not sure about business rules, and the infrastructure still needs a lot of improvement........Sihanoukville is a potential gold mine....the next Pattaya....but a lot of changes will have to take place to make it happen. I do not live in Cambodia. And I love Thailand........that is why I want to see positive changes....

So ... let me get this straight .... people either agree with you ... or have too much invested here ... or don't have enough experience. Guess that means only you and people that see things your way are right?