Tesla powerwall battery electricity bill 46 cents per day

[steven100]

I found this really interesting .....  why so cheap ?  wouldn't solar panels and batteries give a similar result  ?

 

When Sydneysider Nick Pfitzner agreed to be the first person in the world to have a Tesla Powerwall battery installed in his home four years ago, the sceptics were sure he’d be sorry.

But today, with the release of the first four-year study on the experiment, Mr Pfitzner’s having the last laugh all the way to the bank with the revelation that he’s paid an average of just 46 cents a day to power his four-bedroom home.

“And I have airconditioning, a pool and plenty of appliances,” he said, at his house in Kellyville Ridge. “I think, back then, the naysayers were waiting for something to go hideously wrong.

“They were saying the system would never pay for itself and that it was bad for the environment with everything it was made out of. But now I see them starting to walk backwards on their views, particularly as it becomes more common and gets such outstanding results.”

The study has further found that his saving over the past four years amounts to over $8400, with quarterly bills dropping from $572.29 to just $45.16 – a difference of 92 per cent.

[Crossy]

@steven100 do you have a link to the source?

 

Since just adding a battery isn't going to change his actual consumption one assumes he's taking advantage of very generous Time of Use tariffs. Buy power really cheap at night to charge the battery, use it during the day.

 

 

[steven100]

6 minutes ago, Crossy said:

@steven100 do you have a link to the source?

 

Crossy,  I only have this URL address ...

https://www.domain.com.au/news/the-first-person-in-the-world-to-have-a-tesla-powerwall-battery-924164/?utm_source=nine.com.au&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=editorial-content"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Crossy]

7 minutes ago, steven100 said:

Crossy,  I only have this URL address ...

https://www.domain.com.au/news/the-first-person-in-the-world-to-have-a-tesla-powerwall-battery-924164/?utm_source=nine.com.au&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=editorial-content"

 

That's great, I shall have a read later.

[Old Croc]

Reading the link it seems the battery must be connected to solar panels.

[Susco]

16 minutes ago, Crossy said:

@steven100 do you have a link to the source?

 

Since just adding a battery isn't going to change his actual consumption one assumes he's taking advantage of very generous Time of Use tariffs. Buy power really cheap at night to charge the battery, use it during the day.

 

 

I doubt electricity rates at night are only 10% of day time rates. My feeling is that the " forgot " to tell that he also spend a considerable amount of money on a solar installation.

 

They also didn't tell us this, and that are US$ not Aussie $

 

https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-energy-storage/tesla-powerwall-home-battery/

 

How much does the Tesla Powerwall cost?

The list price for a new Tesla Powerwall 2.0 battery, which offers twice the storage capacity of the original Powerwall, is $6,700. Supporting hardware adds another $1,100 to the equipment costs, bringing the total to $7,800. Installation can add anywhere from $2,000 to $8,000 to the final bill.

It is important to note that the list prices you see don't include the cost of installing your Powerwall on your property. Tesla estimates that installation will add $800 to $2,000 to your bill. However, this estimate doesn't include the cost of electrical upgrades, taxes, permit fees, or connection charges. EnergySage users have reported installation costs that add anywhere from $5,000 to $8,000 (before any financial incentives are applied). The final number will be dependent on the specifics of your installation. 

 

 

[URMySunshine]

13 minutes ago, Susco said:

I doubt electricity rates at night are only 10% of day time rates. My feeling is that the " forgot " to tell that he also spend a considerable amount of money on a solar installation.

 

They also didn't tell us this, and that are US$ not Aussie $

 

https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-energy-storage/tesla-powerwall-home-battery/

 

How much does the Tesla Powerwall cost?

The list price for a new Tesla Powerwall 2.0 battery, which offers twice the storage capacity of the original Powerwall, is $6,700. Supporting hardware adds another $1,100 to the equipment costs, bringing the total to $7,800. Installation can add anywhere from $2,000 to $8,000 to the final bill.

It is important to note that the list prices you see don't include the cost of installing your Powerwall on your property. Tesla estimates that installation will add $800 to $2,000 to your bill. However, this estimate doesn't include the cost of electrical upgrades, taxes, permit fees, or connection charges. EnergySage users have reported installation costs that add anywhere from $5,000 to $8,000 (before any financial incentives are applied). The final number will be dependent on the specifics of your installation. 

 

 

That said it looks like he has pretty much paid for all the capital costs in 4 years. Don't know how long these things last but sound like he is onto a winner and smart grids can use them to balance loads over the day and make the most of renewables. If this becomes a no brainer than capital costs will also no doubt tumble with economies of scale. A case of a green solution being the best solution. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by URMySunshine

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, Susco said:

I doubt electricity rates at night are only 10% of day time rates.

They are not.

TOU tariff Below 12 kV

1000kW h peak 1kW h off peak ฿5,847

1000kW h Off peak 1kW h peak ฿2,668

 

so off peak is around 50% on the TOU

 

but on the regular 1.2 tariff 1,001kW h is ฿4,239

Edited January 30, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[Susco]

2 hours ago, URMySunshine said:

That said it looks like he has pretty much paid for all the capital costs in 4 years.

Not how I see it.

 

He has saved 8400 AU$, while I see quotations for installation of 9800 - 15000 US$, and that doesn't include the solar panels and installation, which he obviously has going by the 92% saving quoted.

 

Take note exchange rate of US$ adds another 35% to AU$

[BritManToo]

5 hours ago, steven100 said:

The study has further found that his saving over the past four years amounts to over $8400, with quarterly bills dropping from $572.29 to just $45.16 – a difference of 92 per cent.

My electricity bill is about 33Bht/day, can't see it being worth spending so much to save 16bht/day.

My monthly electricity bill is still smaller than his.

 

If you read the full story, it tells how his family are economising on their electricity use.

That probably saves them more money that the powerwall.

Getting the kids to turn off lights, and changing to LEDs certainly saved me money.

Edited January 30, 2020 by BritManToo

[Poppadom]

Ditto... 120sqm two-storey house. Downsatirs 28k BTU aircon during evenings till we go to bed. Upstairs bedroom 15k BTU unit only at nights. All the usual household appliances and PEA bill is usually between 800-1000 baht depending on time of the year and how much time we spend at home...

[Metropolitian]

5 hours ago, Crossy said:

Since just adding a battery isn't going to change his actual consumption one assumes he's taking advantage of very generous Time of Use tariffs. Buy power really cheap at night to charge the battery, use it during the day.

 

 

 

Just what I did before going solar.

Charged batteries at night for use on the day.

Until the calculation shows the costs of the batteries did not outweigh the profit of the tou.

Batteries were depleted to fast and worn in no time even when discharged only to 80%.

Lack of good under/over-charge controlling.

Now I am picking up this again, but with Lifepo4 batteries and balancers.

And charge the small kit with the panels during 'low efficiency' times and the bigger, teslawall-like packs, on nights.

 

 

[tjo o tjim]

The main savings in most countries with a higher solar penetration is that the peak period shifts from 11AM-4PM to 3PM-8PM, so the value of energy your PV produces is minimal without storage.

 

In general I would say that the batteries don’t have a direct economic payback at current pricing, but if you add value back for backup power, tax incentives, and a few other things then it isn’t a bad use of extra money.  Until you have a significantly high penetration of solar on a utility though (~>10% of peak demand), it is better to just directly export the PV onto the grid, using it as your “battery.” 

[Don Mega]

On 1/30/2020 at 1:32 PM, Susco said:

Not how I see it.

 

He has saved 8400 AU$, while I see quotations for installation of 9800 - 15000 US$, and that doesn't include the solar panels and installation, which he obviously has going by the 92% saving quoted.

 

Take note exchange rate of US$ adds another 35% to AU$

A friend in Sydney installed solar panels a tesla powerwall, Not sure how much it all cost but I  do recall my mate saying it will take 12 years to pay for itself..... I wonder what the lifespan of the battery and solar equipment is ?

[bankruatsteve]

My best regards go to the folks that are investing in renewable energy sources even when the ROI is way out there.  Eventually there will be a base where mass production costs will plumit and everybody will have solar roofing or whatever.  More effiecient, more powerful,. and longer lasting batteries will be coming.  I think that is the best bet for getting the world back to green.

[Metropolitian]

On 2/2/2020 at 9:07 AM, Don Mega said:

A friend in Sydney installed solar panels a tesla powerwall, Not sure how much it all cost but I  do recall my mate saying it will take 12 years to pay for itself..... I wonder what the lifespan of the battery and solar equipment is ?

If the price for electric stays the same for me. The return is expected after 2.4 years, after that the electric from the PV array is a gift aw long as there is no other expenses (like a failing inverter or damaged panel).

 

For the batteries I have to wait for that project be finished and the bill of products (or what exactly that is called) is known and the capacity left after say 6 months.

[Don Mega]

5 hours ago, Metropolitian said:

If the price for electric stays the same for me. The return is expected after 2.4 years, after that the electric from the PV array is a gift aw long as there is no other expenses (like a failing inverter or damaged panel).

 

For the batteries I have to wait for that project be finished and the bill of products (or what exactly that is called) is known and the capacity left after say 6 months.

A return of what dollars ?..

 

Like I said ive no idea what my mates install cost but a quick google tells me the Powerwall is between 13k and 15k installed add to that the cost of the solar panels and other associated gear needed and I can see this would easily be a 20k to 25k outlay for him.

 

either his 12 years ROI is off or it cost him more than 25k.

 

Googling powerwall 2 give mixed results for lifespan but 15yrs is a common number.

[Laza 45]

On 1/30/2020 at 8:18 AM, steven100 said:

I found this really interesting .....  why so cheap ?  wouldn't solar panels and batteries give a similar result  ?

That would be exactly what he has... the Powerwall is a storage unit for collected solar power.. he is running off the sun.  

[Crossy]

For a real-world ROI our 8 x 300W panel, grid-tie (no batteries) system cost about 45,000 Baht (DIY install, not registered with PEA) and makes, on average, 7 units per day over the last 6 months.

 

At 4 Baht per unit that means it will have paid for itself in 1,600 days = about 4.5 years. IMHO acceptable.

 

A similar unit from global house (9 panels) costs 154,000 Baht (including installation) with a ROI of around 11 years. Too long!

 

Add the cost of batteries and a hybrid inverter and the costs increase significantly to no real advantage.

[Laza 45]

On 1/30/2020 at 10:38 AM, Crossy said:

@steven100 do you have a link to the source?

 

Since just adding a battery isn't going to change his actual consumption one assumes he's taking advantage of very generous Time of Use tariffs. Buy power really cheap at night to charge the battery, use it during the day.

 

 

An interesting concept but totally at odds with a solar/battery system.  If you filled the battery with off peak power you would have nowhere to store your free solar power..  'free' apart from recovering installation costs..

[Crossy]

58 minutes ago, Laza 45 said:

An interesting concept but totally at odds with a solar/battery system.  If you filled the battery with off peak power you would have nowhere to store your free solar power..  'free' apart from recovering installation costs..

 

Yeah, the original article made no mention of solar, just installing "battery power".

 

I'm still confused by the financial need for the batteries (apart from the UPS functionality) unless the local authorities don't permit net metering (which is effectively using the grid as your battery).

 

 

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

For a real-world ROI our 8 x 300W panel, grid-tie (no batteries) system cost about 45,000 Baht (DIY install, not registered with PEA) and makes, on average, 7 units per day over the last 6 months.

I put my 1 x330w panel in at the same time as you (total install costs around 7,500bht).

Averaging a fraction under 1 unit a day (29/30 units a month) for the past 6 months.

 

So far you and I are the only guys on the forum that have actually had a go and posted results.

I'm surprised our results are identical.

 

This powerwall story seems total BS, I'm thinking is just an advertising puff piece.

No real reason to even buy such an item.

Edited February 4, 2020 by BritManToo
typo

[Laza 45]

9 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Yeah, the original article made no mention of solar, just installing "battery power".

 

I'm still confused by the financial need for the batteries (apart from the UPS functionality) unless the local authorities don't permit net metering (which is effectively using the grid as your battery).

times   

 

I'm certainly no expert on this.. what has happened in South Australia which is the situation I am most familiar with..  It used to be that you could sell your excess power to the grid and get a very favorable rate for it.. then buy back when needed and have considerable savings..  the sell rate to the grid is now so low that there is little advantage so it has become an advantage to have your own storage.  Now with smart metering it is possible to sell excess power to the grid at peak times and make a profit.  This technology is now at a point where power companies can network thousands of home (or business) batteries at the same time creating a virtual power plant of considerable magnitude.  South Australia has a program now where they will install 50,000 solar/battery units for people unable to afford  their own systems. The home owners will get cheaper power.. the power companies will get access to their excess power.  Much cheaper than building and maintaining a reserve gas run power plant for peak needs..

[Crossy]

10 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I'm surprised our results are identical.

 

Same country, similar weather. The smog doesn't seem to affect the output although overcast does, it will be interesting to see how things perform when (if) the wet ever arrives.

 

The data, the jump Oct to Nov is when we installed the second 4 panels.

 

 

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

Same country, similar weather. The smog doesn't seem to affect the output although overcast does, it will be interesting to see how things perform when (if) the wet ever arrives.

You'd think there would be some bigger variations due to equipment differences, angle of panels, etc.

But you're right, smog made less difference than I had imagined, whereas overcast = almost no output.

I suspect monsoon won't make any difference either, as the sun will be stronger when it's out.

[Crossy]

@Laza 45 Yeah, looking at it on the macro scale what you say makes sense, thousands of small storage facilities to provide the peak smoothing and renewables storage.

 

And of course, the small man pays for his own rather than the authority paying for a big facility but still getting the advantages 

 

[Metropolitian]

3 panels x 300w.

Not ideal positioned yet. (Shadows)