KETO DIET ultimate thread - Keto diet in Thailand, what do you eat, what did you learn ?

[Don Chance]

Are you guys having a Med Life Crisis?

 

[cooked]

7 hours ago, Bohemianfish said:

Apparently, too much protein can spark the insulin. I just focus on fats and veggies. Still eat carbs and protein, but try to minimize. So a fatty chicken thigh should be better than a lean chicken breast. 

This too is a myth that is being debunked.... what does TOO MUCH protein mean? The body, through the process of gluconeogenesis transforms protein into glucose, thus requiring insulin to get rid of it, but this process is fairly constant and though not negligible, not really important as far as insulin production  is concerned. 

Hopefully people on Keto are aiming at getting healthy, which means they will lose weight, and so in addition to changing their diet also do exercise, which increases the amount of protein you need. 

https://perfectketo.com/gluconeogenesis/

[WaveHunter]

10 hours ago, Don Chance said:

Are you guys having a Med Life Crisis?

 

This study he refers to is called "Effect of a plant-based, low-fat diet versus an animal-based, ketogenic diet on ad libitum energy intake"  which was published in Nature back in January.  It is basically an examination of plant-based diets  vs Keto; and which is better for weight loss.  He (and the study) acknowledge that BOTH are better for weight loss than the Standard American Diet (SAD) which is composed primarily of highly processed foods, which of course is true.

 

Keto is really based on the Carbohydrate - Insulin Model which basically debunks the long standing conventional model of obesity based only on “calories in = calories out”.

 

In the conventional model of obesity in which calories-in = calories-out, diets high in added sugar or other processed carbohydrates should have no special adverse effects upon metabolism or body composition, after considering total calorie consumption.

 

However, rates of obesity have risen to epidemic levels over the last decade despite intensive focus on reducing calorie intake (“eat less”) and increasing calorie expenditure (“move more”).  So, clearly there is a problem with the conventional "calories in = calories out" model. 

 

The current epidemic of obesity and diabetes that has developed over the last 20 years support the flaws in this model.  What's more, this epidemic coincides with the rise of the processed food industries and the lowered physical activity levels of the population.  Worst of all, this epidemic includes young children.  For the first time in history, children are now victims of diabetes type 2 at unprecedented levels.

 

It is an interesting study but one serious drawback to it is that it is only a two-week study.  The problem here is that "Keto" is not simply a diet.  It does not kick in on day 1 the way a conventional weight loss diet does.  Unlike the usual weight loss diets, the primary goal is NOT simply to lose weight but much more importantly it is to redefine the metabolic pathways that favor fats as a fuel source over carbohydrates.  This takes time.  For some it can just be a matter of days, but for others, particularly those who have been overeating carbs for a long time,  it can take many weeks to become "keto adapted.

 

The study makes it clear though that "Keto" is a far superior approach to promoting healthy metabolic markers.  The fact that fat loss was greater with a non-keto diet over a period of two weeks really proves very little about long-term weight maintenance because, historically, one of the major drawback of diets based only on a reduction of calories is that it is not sustainable over time because the body naturally reacts to a reduction in calories by also reducing the basal metabolic rate.  The problem with this is that once normal eating is resumed, and assuming the person returns to their preference for high carb foods, they will not only gain the weight back but even put on more weight because their resting metabolic rate has now been slowed down as a result of the diet.

 

If you need proof of this, one only needs to look at the contestants of "The Biggest Losers" show.  I believe that every one of them eventually returned to their overweight state and many gained even more weight, and historically it has been the flaw of every single diet based on the conventional model of calories-in equals calories-out since the inception of this model over 100 years ago.

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

3 hours ago, cooked said:

This too is a myth that is being debunked.... what does TOO MUCH protein mean? The body, through the process of gluconeogenesis transforms protein into glucose, thus requiring insulin to get rid of it, but this process is fairly constant and though not negligible, not really important as far as insulin production  is concerned. 

Hopefully people on Keto are aiming at getting healthy, which means they will lose weight, and so in addition to changing their diet also do exercise, which increases the amount of protein you need. 

https://perfectketo.com/gluconeogenesis/

I think you are incorrectly stating what gluconeogenesis is all about.  The body is not using insulin to  "get rid" of the protein.  Insulin does not respond to dietary proteins, only carbohydrates.  Insulin is produced through gluconeogenesis as a result of creating new glucose, which in turns elicits the insulin response.  The body doesn't care where the glucose came from; if it is excessive, then a detrimental level of insulin can be the result.  In the presence of excessive insulin levels, stored fat can not be accessed, so if weight loss is a goal, excessive amounts of protein are detrimental.  In the longer run, excessive insulin can lead to desensitivity of insulin receptors, and gluconeogenesis can cause that to happen the same as excessive levels of carbohydrates can.

 

The truth is, for most people in Western societies, they already eat far higher amounts of protein than their bodies actually need, and it actually can have a detrimental effect on insulin levels (through gluconeogenesis).  The people most guilty of this are health conscious people who work out regularly and have fallen for the marketing hype that you need to supplement your workouts by increasing protein intake with things like "protein shakes" promoted by the health supplement industry.

 

While a little bit of extra protein might have a negligible effect on insulin levels, the super-high levels of protein advocated by many of the dopey health gurus that people follow on YouTUbe can have a significant effect on excessive insulin levels through gluconeogenesis, , not to mention that most of these protein supplements, especially the shakes sold at gyms are loaded with sugar.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying gluconeogenesis is a bad thing.  It is an essential metabolic pathway especially if you are following a keto diet since ketones can't provide energy for a lot of things in the body that only glucose can provide.  I'm just saying that excessive protein can and will lead to excessive glucose levels in the body, which in turn will lead to excessive insulin levels, and excessive insulin levels is a VERY bad thing.

 

NOBODY, no matter how hard they work out need the excessive amount of protein being advocated by non science-based sources today...unless, of course,  you happen to have a vested financial interest in protein supplement companies.

Edited February 26, 2021 by WaveHunter

[BigStar]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

one of the major drawback of diets based only on a reduction of calories is that it is not sustainable over time because the body naturally reacts to a reduction in calories by also reducing the basal metabolic rate.  The problem with this is that once normal eating is resumed, and assuming the person returns to their preference for high carb foods, they will not only gain the weight back but even put on more weight because their resting metabolic rate has now been slowed down as a result of the diet.

True. I'll add that a major part of the impetus to resume "normal," or worse, eating is that the CICO dieter can't eat to satiety and so always remains hungry. The torture finally intolerable, the diet's abandoned.

 

Calorie restriction's much harder for those with metabolisms already prone to overweight and obesity. Most of the CICO diets seem written by people who've never actually suffered excessive insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome. They may be naturally slim, even athletic to a degree, and so find it relatively easy to restrict calories.

[cooked]

21 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

I think you are incorrectly stating what gluconeogenesis is all about.  The body is not using insulin to  "get rid" of the protein.  Insulin does not respond to dietary proteins, only carbohydrates.  Insulin is produced through gluconeogenesis as a result of creating new glucose, which in turns elicits the insulin response.  The body doesn't care where the glucose came from; if it is excessive, then a detrimental level of insulin can be the result.  In the presence of excessive insulin levels, stored fat can not be accessed, so if weight loss is a goal, excessive amounts of protein are detrimental.  In the longer run, excessive insulin can lead to desensitivity of insulin receptors, and gluconeogenesis can cause that to happen the same as excessive levels of carbohydrates can.

 

The truth is, for most people in Western societies, they already eat far higher amounts of protein than their bodies actually need, and it actually can have a detrimental effect on insulin levels (through gluconeogenesis).  The people most guilty of this are health conscious people who work out regularly and have fallen for the marketing hype that you need to supplement your workouts by increasing protein intake with things like "protein shakes" promoted by the health supplement industry.

 

While a little bit of extra protein might have a negligible effect on insulin levels, the super-high levels of protein advocated by many of the dopey health gurus that people follow on YouTUbe can have a significant effect on excessive insulin levels through gluconeogenesis, , not to mention that most of these protein supplements, especially the shakes sold at gyms are loaded with sugar.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying gluconeogenesis is a bad thing.  It is an essential metabolic pathway especially if you are following a keto diet since ketones can't provide energy for a lot of things in the body that only glucose can provide.  I'm just saying that excessive protein can and will lead to excessive glucose levels in the body, which in turn will lead to excessive insulin levels, and excessive insulin levels is a VERY bad thing.

 

NOBODY, no matter how hard they work out need the excessive amount of protein being advocated by non science-based sources today...unless, of course,  you happen to have a vested financial interest in protein supplement companies.

I appreciate your feedback. 

Maybe you missed my point; the process of gluconeogenesis is not one that springs into overdrive in the presence of protein, the process is more or less constant. The process works when the body feels that it is in need of glucose, otherwise it is just ticking over. It is requirement driven, not reactionary. As for "dopey gurus" I can give you access to more serious studies, which I'm sure you can find for yourself, the Youtube reference wasn't necessarily meant for people like you. 

The only processes that I know of for which glucose is irreplaceable are certain brain functions.

[WaveHunter]

6 hours ago, cooked said:

I appreciate your feedback. 

Maybe you missed my point; the process of gluconeogenesis is not one that springs into overdrive in the presence of protein, the process is more or less constant. The process works when the body feels that it is in need of glucose, otherwise it is just ticking over. It is requirement driven, not reactionary. As for "dopey gurus" I can give you access to more serious studies, which I'm sure you can find for yourself, the Youtube reference wasn't necessarily meant for people like you. 

The only processes that I know of for which glucose is irreplaceable are certain brain functions.

Actually, gluconeogenesis can be activated not only by depletion of glycogen stores in the body, but also by excessive amounts of protein in the diet.

 

The human body is a pretty complex machine when it comes to survival strategies.  When you eat more protein than the body requires, it will not simply pee out the excessive protein, but rather convert it to stored energy in the form of fat for future energy needs.  Gluconeogenesis is the mechanism.

 

It’s pretty fascinating when you view the physiology behind it all.  Two of the most prominent researchers of all of this were Dr. George Cahill back in the 1960’s whose research was summed up in his landmark starvation studies, and more recently by Dr.  Kevin Hall , summed up in his book, “Comparative Physiology of Fasting, Starvation, and Food Limitation”

 

From Cahill’s research, this graph shows how gluconeogenesis kicks in as glycogen becomes depleted BUT note that after a couple of days, it starts to taper off.  The main reason why is that ketones are quickly being produced that can not only fuel the body and essential organs...but the brain as well since ketones bodies can readily cross the blood-brain barrier.

 

 

Just how ketones do this is pretty remarkable.  Glucose requirements fall drastically during fasting as ketosis allows the body feed on fatty acids and the brain feeds on ketone bodies significantly reducing the need for gluconeogenesis.  Contrary to what you said, the brain can get almost all the energy it needs from ketones because they can easily pass through the blood-brain barrier, and of course the body can get all the energy it needs from fat stores...SO, gluconeogenesis rapidly begins to taper off.

 

You can see all of this happening in this graph from Dr. Hall's book:

 

As glycogen becomes depleted, gluconeogenesis  catabolizes proteins but only as a very temporary stopgap measure until ketone bodies can be produced.  Ketone bodies ramp up very quickly as you can see by the green line, and as they do, gluconeogenesis rapidly tapers off and therefore, protein catabolization stabilizes.

 

People who claim that fasting or any form of nutritional deprivation will lead to muscle wasting just don't appreciate the role that ketones play in preserving essential body tissue in the absence of food. 

 

I know we're only disagreeing are very fine points.  I'm sure we both agree that ketosis is a pretty remarkable mechanism!

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

Sorry, somehow an edit to a paragraph in my previous post did not get saved properly.  As published it is misleading.  Thaivisa forums was acting very quirky this afternoon.

 

This unedited paragraph as published: 

The human body is a pretty complex machine when it comes to survival strategies.  When you eat more protein than the body requires, it will not simply pee out the excessive protein, but rather convert it to stored energy in the form of fat for future energy needs.  Gluconeogenesis is the mechanism."

 

The edited version:

The human body is a pretty complex machine when it comes to survival strategies.  When you eat more protein than the body requires, it will not simply pee out the excessive protein, but rather it will convert excessive dietary protein into glucose for the body to use as energy through gluconeogenesis, and if glucose stores are full, it will be stored by the body as fat (mostly  in the liver) for future use.

 

 

 

[thcosh]

anybody has been on keto for long time ?

 

[crowned]

2 hours ago, thcosh said:

anybody has been on keto for long time ?

 

12 months for me. Dramatic improvement in my health

[sawadee1947]

It's amazing. There seem to be still people who follow specialised diet plans. 

I still hope to see people eat healthy food but limited. 

It's common sense that the Mediterranean style is the most suitable for everyone 

[BigStar]

3 hours ago, sawadee1947 said:

It's amazing. There seem to be still people who follow specialised diet plans. 

I still hope to see people eat healthy food but limited. 

It's common sense that the Mediterranean style is the most suitable for everyone 

Whoops. Mediterranean keto diet.

[aussie11950]

I just found this keto group.

I have been on keto 9 months.

During that time I have researched on the internet, seen youtube videos and seen scientific reports.

I am happy with keto and lost weight, but getting keto sources is difficult here.

The FDA doesnt help by positing low fat, low salt, vegetable oil and  max sugar 65 grams.

Also try to get a ful fat yoghurt. They are all low fat, zero fal or low sugar.

 

 

[WaveHunter]

2 hours ago, aussie11950 said:

I just found this keto group.

I have been on keto 9 months.

During that time I have researched on the internet, seen youtube videos and seen scientific reports.

I am happy with keto and lost weight, but getting keto sources is difficult here.

The FDA doesnt help by positing low fat, low salt, vegetable oil and  max sugar 65 grams.

Also try to get a ful fat yoghurt. They are all low fat, zero fal or low sugar.

 

 

You have to approach a keto-based lifestyle as a pioneer since you won't get much support from mainstream medicine.  Of course, that's not to say you should follow many of the self-proclaimed gurus on YouTube either since many of them don;t a have a clue in hell of what they are talking about.

 

But there are genuine authorities you can trust that for providing science-based and well documented information from which YOU can decide what makes sense, and what does not.

 

You have to take that information and do a LOT of your own independent research though to see if it really makes sense TO YOU.  It's not easy, but it can be done if it's important enough to you.

 

Just remember that nobody else can tell you "the truth".  That's something you can only do for yourself.

Edited July 27, 2021 by WaveHunter

[cooked]

44 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

You have to approach a keto-based lifestyle as a pioneer since you won't get much support from mainstream medicine.  Of course, that's not to say you should follow many of the self-proclaimed gurus on YouTube either since many of them don;t a have a clue in hell of what they are talking about.

 

But there are genuine authorities you can trust that for providing science-based and well documented information from which YOU can decide what makes sense, and what does not.

 

You have to take that information and do a LOT of your own independent research though to see if it really makes sense TO YOU.  It's not easy, but it can be done if it's important enough to you.

 

Just remember that nobody else can tell you "the truth".  That's something you can only do for yourself.

The main problem that I have is that many Keto followers are almost as bad as reformed alcoholics. They won't admit that it's different strokes for different folks.

Also, I would guess that many don't care about health and are just doing it for weight loss (which is important of course, but only because it indicates that you are getting healthy), talk about exercise and you become a pariah. 

You'll get little or no support from doctors in Thailand, and probably none at all from your family. The few social media sites talking about Keto are either selling recipes or food. 

[BigStar]

7 hours ago, aussie11950 said:

I just found this keto group.

I have been on keto 9 months.

During that time I have researched on the internet, seen youtube videos and seen scientific reports.

I am happy with keto and lost weight, but getting keto sources is difficult here.

The FDA doesnt help by positing low fat, low salt, vegetable oil and  max sugar 65 grams.

Also try to get a ful fat yoghurt. They are all low fat, zero fal or low sugar.

 

 

Full fat yogurt is commonly available at larger supermarkets, for example:

 

https://shoponline.tescolotus.com/groceries/en-GB/products/6070077541

 

and you may order online along with other keto-friendly items.

 

It used to amuse me, in the USA, trying to fight my way to the full fat yogurt through all the fat ladies crowding in front of the low fat shelf.

 

Seed oils are a no-no anyway. Coconut oil, olive oil commonly available. Canola has finally won acceptance among the rational. 

 

I've been on low carb since forever here in Thailand. Never found it particularly difficult. Been good to me, too.

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by BigStar

[WaveHunter]

16 hours ago, BigStar said:

Full fat yogurt is commonly available at larger supermarkets, for example:

 

https://shoponline.tescolotus.com/groceries/en-GB/products/6070077541

 

and you may order online along with other keto-friendly items.

 

It used to amuse me, in the USA, trying to fight my way to the full fat yogurt through all the fat ladies crowding in front of the low fat shelf.

 

Seed oils are a no-no anyway. Coconut oil, olive oil commonly available. Canola has finally won acceptance among the rational. 

 

I've been on low carb since forever here in Thailand. Never found it particularly difficult. Been good to me, too.

 

Yes, oils are often overlooked as to how negative they can be on your health.  Some of these oils are actually far more dangerous than fructose, when it comes to things like obesity and fatty liver.

 

It's one of those topics that you'll get a lot of varying opinions on because unfounded food myths die hard, and strangely your own family doctor is usually the last one to figure it out!

 

So,  you really have to do your own Google research, and then make up your own mind.

 

ALL seed oils are unnatural, and just not good for you.  In order to make them, they must be hydrogenated.  That makes them incredibly inflammatory (causes oxidative damage).  What's more, just like with high fructose corn syrup, these oils can be found in almost all processed foods simply because they are so cheap to produce

 

Any unsaturated oils that are hydrogenated should simply be avoided.  That is all you will find in processed foods, fast food restaurants, etc... .

 

IMO, the most dangerous oil of all is actually CANOLA OIL, which is made from rapeseed.  Soy oil would be next on the list IMO.  If you really do your due diligence on the science-based research out there right now, you'll be shocked.  That's all I'm going to say since I know many will say I'm wrong....do your research and decide for yourself.

 

Saturated oils are the only oils you should be using. Contrary to what we've been told, butter is a very healthy oil to cook with, olive oil is healthy, and avocado oil is another just for example. 

 

I know all of this flies in the face of what many doctors will advise...but science is beginning to proves  that these outdated food myths that some doctors and nutritionists still promote are just plain wrong.

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

20 hours ago, cooked said:

The main problem that I have is that many Keto followers are almost as bad as reformed alcoholics. They won't admit that it's different strokes for different folks.

Also, I would guess that many don't care about health and are just doing it for weight loss (which is important of course, but only because it indicates that you are getting healthy), talk about exercise and you become a pariah. 

You'll get little or no support from doctors in Thailand, and probably none at all from your family. The few social media sites talking about Keto are either selling recipes or food. 

"DIfferent strokes for different folks" has nothing to do with the science-based study of how the metabolism works.  In that regard, we are all the same.

 

It is true that there are many so-called keto gurus or fanatics out there, but most of them don't really know what the hell they are talking about.

 

"Keto" really has very little to do with weight loss.  If you look to keto for weight loss you are looking at Keto incorrectly.  Weight loss may be a by product of Keto, but it should NOT be the goal.

 

Keto is all about  allowing your body to efficiently use fats as a fuel, rather than relying solely on carbohydrates.  Back in the days before refrigerators, 24 hour supermarkets full of heavily processed foods and fast food restaurants, when people did not eat from the moment they work up until the moment they went to bed, they had healthy insulin responses, and their bodies were able to use stored fats as a ready fuel source.

 

Today however, many people have lost that ability.  Because they eat throughout the day, nonstop, their insulin levels are always higher than normal, and that means their bodies can only store excess calories as fat and can not access them because continually high insulin levels prevents stored fats from being accessed.

 

Over time, this becomes pathological leading to insulin insensitivity, and eventually Diabetes type 2.

 

There is a epidemic of obesity and diabetes type 2 in the world today, and it is no coincidence that this epidemic coincides almost exactly to when foods began to be come heavily processed, when fast food restaurants and 24 our supermarkets came into being.  Even worse, there is now an epidemic of obesity and diabetes type 2 in children, when only a generation ago, that was practically unheard of!

 

Sure, people can believe that it's "different strokes for different folks"  if that's their preference, but metabolic science applies to ALL human beings equally and makes no such distinctions.

 

The goal of adapting a keto lifestyle is simply about restoring that metabolic balance between carbohydrates and fats in the human diet, and is more to do with avoiding heavily processed foods as a way to achieve that.  There is nothing cultish or strange about it, except for some of the guru-types you'll see on YouTube.  If you read science based medical and scientific literature, you'll find the truth that exists today, and it is VERY compelling.

[WaveHunter]

36 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Yes, oils are often overlooked as to how negative they can be on your health.  Some of these oils are actually far more dangerous than fructose, when it comes to things like obesity and fatty liver.

 

It's one of those topics that you'll get a lot of varying opinions on because unfounded food myths die hard, and strangely your own family doctor is usually the last one to figure it out!

 

So,  you really have to do your own Google research, and then make up your own mind.

 

ALL seed oils are unnatural, and just not good for you.  In order to make them, they must be hydrogenated.  That makes them incredibly inflammatory (causes oxidative damage).  What's more, just like with high fructose corn syrup, these oils can be found in almost all processed foods simply because they are so cheap to produce

 

Any unsaturated oils that are hydrogenated should simply be avoided.  That is all you will find in processed foods, fast food restaurants, etc... .

 

IMO, the most dangerous oil of all is actually CANOLA OIL, which is made from rapeseed.  Soy oil would be next on the list IMO.  If you really do your due diligence on the science-based research out there right now, you'll be shocked.  That's all I'm going to say since I know many will say I'm wrong....do your research and decide for yourself.

 

Saturated oils are the only oils you should be using. Contrary to what we've been told, butter is a very healthy oil to cook with, olive oil is healthy, and avocado oil is another just for example. 

 

I know all of this flies in the face of what many doctors will advise...but science is beginning to proves  that these outdated food myths that some doctors and nutritionists still promote are just plain wrong.

 

I forgot to mention coconut oil as another excellent source of healthy fats.  How could I have forgotten that one LOL?  One of the most healthy fats out there, especially if you are trying to become "keto-adapted" ????

 

Just as a parting word, remember that science has easily proven that eating fats does NOT make you fat.

 

One of the worst things you can do for your health is to eat "low fat" foods, because when they lower fat content of processed foods, the only way to restore lost flavor is by adding high fructose corn syrup...think about that!

Edited July 28, 2021 by WaveHunter

[BigStar]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

IMO, the most dangerous oil of all is actually CANOLA OIL, which is made from rapeseed. 

Standard party line I'm quite aware of. IMO doesn't actually make it fact, however. Despite all the speculations, the science isn't as clear as one may wish. Most web pages are looking for page views and clicks, and they won't risk contradicting what keto dieters wish to hear. The Diet Doctor has a balanced discussion you might read.

 

But as I noted, there's been some acceptance of canola. Those Omega 3s look good:

 

 

Mark Sisson, for example, used to be quite negative but he's recently loosened up. Canola oil: Humans who eat high-oleic canola oil have more oleic acid in their LDL particles. More oleic acid in your LDL particles means greater resistance to oxidation (and presumably greater resistance to heart disease).

     --https://www.marksdailyapple.com/updating-the-primal-stance-on-vegetable-oils-high-oleic-varieties/

 

I never fry anything more than an egg, so I'm not worried. I would suggest, however, that members on non-keto currently using corn oil etc. would be better off with canola.

 

I forgot to mention palm oil. Ubiquitous in Thailand!

 

 

 

[WaveHunter]

2 hours ago, BigStar said:

Standard party line I'm quite aware of. IMO doesn't actually make it fact, however. Despite all the speculations, the science isn't as clear as one may wish. Most web pages are looking for page views and clicks, and they won't risk contradicting what keto dieters wish to hear. The Diet Doctor has a balanced discussion you might read.

 

But as I noted, there's been some acceptance of canola. Those Omega 3s look good:

 

 

Mark Sisson, for example, used to be quite negative but he's recently loosened up. Canola oil: Humans who eat high-oleic canola oil have more oleic acid in their LDL particles. More oleic acid in your LDL particles means greater resistance to oxidation (and presumably greater resistance to heart disease).

     --https://www.marksdailyapple.com/updating-the-primal-stance-on-vegetable-oils-high-oleic-varieties/

 

I never fry anything more than an egg, so I'm not worried. I would suggest, however, that members on non-keto currently using corn oil etc. would be better off with canola.

 

I forgot to mention palm oil. Ubiquitous in Thailand!

 

 

 

I have no reason to use Canola oil so the choice is pretty simple for me.  Anything I need an oil for can be met with natural sources like olive or coconut oils that don't require hydrogenation. 

 

I've seen enough legitimate science-based information to seriously question the use of Canola and Soy oil.  I'm not saying the science is yet 100%, but if I can live without them, I'd rather do that.

 

Unfortunately, the processed food industry uses oils like this in almost ALL processed foods, and sometimes deceptive food labelling makes it ahrd to even know that.

 

I have looked at a lot of studies over the past few years and many of the ones that come out in favor of its' use almost seem to tout it for weight loss and when you really look into their research papers, you find  disturbing potential conflicts of interests....especially the ones where organizations like the Canola Council of Canada are in some way involved.

 

Whenever you see "food councils" like that, they are almost always involved in political lobbying efforts and funding scientific studies that are intentionally biased to make their product to look benign, and often even beneficial to health when in fact the opposite may be true.  I mean, very big dollars are at stake.

 

However, When you look at truly objective, unbiased academic-based research with no conflicts of interests, the story is not so positive at all.

 

It's up to each person to decide for themselves, but it should be considered pretty seriously.  Personally, I feel strongly enough about it that I check food labels and if I goto a restaurant I ask whether o not it's used, and if it is, and can't be removed for me, I won't eat there...but that's just me.  I just don;t like knowing there is something questionable inside of me, or worse, not even knowing what is inside of me.

 

I mean, good health is something that, once you lose it, can be very hard to get back. ????

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by WaveHunter

[cooked]

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

"DIfferent strokes for different folks" has nothing to do with the science-based study of how the metabolism works.  In that regard, we are all the same.

 

It is true that there are many so-called keto gurus or fanatics out there, but most of them don't really know what the hell they are talking about.

 

"Keto" really has very little to do with weight loss.  If you look to keto for weight loss you are looking at Keto incorrectly.  Weight loss may be a by product of Keto, but it should NOT be the goal.

 

Keto is all about  allowing your body to efficiently use fats as a fuel, rather than relying solely on carbohydrates.  Back in the days before refrigerators, 24 hour supermarkets full of heavily processed foods and fast food restaurants, when people did not eat from the moment they work up until the moment they went to bed, they had healthy insulin responses, and their bodies were able to use stored fats as a ready fuel source.

 

Today however, many people have lost that ability.  Because they eat throughout the day, nonstop, their insulin levels are always higher than normal, and that means their bodies can only store excess calories as fat and can not access them because continually high insulin levels prevents stored fats from being accessed.

 

Over time, this becomes pathological leading to insulin insensitivity, and eventually Diabetes type 2.

 

There is a epidemic of obesity and diabetes type 2 in the world today, and it is no coincidence that this epidemic coincides almost exactly to when foods began to be come heavily processed, when fast food restaurants and 24 our supermarkets came into being.  Even worse, there is now an epidemic of obesity and diabetes type 2 in children, when only a generation ago, that was practically unheard of!

 

Sure, people can believe that it's "different strokes for different folks"  if that's their preference, but metabolic science applies to ALL human beings equally and makes no such distinctions.

 

The goal of adapting a keto lifestyle is simply about restoring that metabolic balance between carbohydrates and fats in the human diet, and is more to do with avoiding heavily processed foods as a way to achieve that.  There is nothing cultish or strange about it, except for some of the guru-types you'll see on YouTube.  If you read science based medical and scientific literature, you'll find the truth that exists today, and it is VERY compelling.

You're a fanatic. Most people can get into ketosis with 20gm of carbs daily, some can get there with 50 or more.  There's a different stroke, there are others. . I didn't say what you are implying, but you went for it. 

Everybody's metabolism is different, I know guys that eat and live really badly and are in their eighties still going strong. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by cooked

[WaveHunter]

45 minutes ago, cooked said:

You're a fanatic. Most people can get into ketosis with 20gm of carbs daily, some can get there with 50 or more.  There's a different stroke, there are others. . I didn't say what you are implying, but you went for it. 

Everybody's metabolism is different, I know guys that eat and live really badly and are in their eighties still going strong. 

There's no need to be insulting but that seems to be your modus operandi .  I remember interacting with you in the past, and your understanding of metabolic sciences is very limited.  To make up for that you insult people, and try to twist their words around, as though this is a game to see if you can bait someone into a silly and pointless argument.

 

I remember you telling some poster that excess protein leading to potential rises in insulin was "... a myth that is being debunked" which is ludicrous since that is well studied metabolic FACT known as "gluconeogenesis", a the metabolic process by which organisms produce sugars (namely glucose) for catabolic reactions from non-carbohydrate precursors (i.e.: excess proteins beyond what the body needs).  When sugars rise, insulin also rises (also a well proven metabolic FACT!).

 

YES, I am a fanatic!; a fanatic for science-based FACTS, not unfounded mumbo-jumbo.  Keto is all about metabolic science, not weight loss schemes, and not loosely interpreted notions that "everybody is different". 

 

Sorry to disturb your little bubble, but NOBODY is immune from the laws of metabolic science.  Your body reacts to macronutrients exactly the same as anyone else's. 

 

So, If you insist on only saying insulting and ignorant things, I'm no longer interested in talking to you. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by WaveHunter

[cooked]

21 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

There's no need to be insulting but that seems to be your modus operandi .  I remember interacting with you in the past, and your understanding of metabolic sciences is very limited.  To make up for that you insult people, and try to twist their words around, as though this is a game to see if you can bait someone into a silly and pointless argument.

 

I remember you telling some poster that excess protein leading to potential rises in insulin was "... a myth that is being debunked" which is ludicrous since that is well studied metabolic FACT known as "gluconeogenesis", a the metabolic process by which organisms produce sugars (namely glucose) for catabolic reactions from non-carbohydrate precursors (i.e.: excess proteins beyond what the body needs).  When sugars rise, insulin also rises (also a well proven metabolic FACT!).

 

YES, I am a fanatic!; a fanatic for science-based FACTS, not unfounded mumbo-jumbo.  Keto is all about metabolic science, not weight loss schemes, and not loosely interpreted notions that "everybody is different". 

 

Sorry to disturb your little bubble, but NOBODY is immune from the laws of metabolic science.  Your body reacts to macronutrients exactly the same as anyone else's. 

 

So, If you insist on only saying insulting and ignorant things, I'm no longer interested in talking to you. 

This will be the end of the discussion. I did mention, a fact that you won't have noticed, that for most people Keto is about weight loss, that's what Keto forums are full of. NOWHERE did I say that that is what I believe. I can'r remember ever contradicting what you have written in this your last post.

Nevertheless everybody IS different, sorry about that. I didn't ever say that metaboloism works differently for different people, but that it affects different people in different ways and to different degrees.

There is someone like you in every Keto discussion. 

So there was ONE bubble that got popped: I thought you were at least moderately intelligent.

[WaveHunter]

2 hours ago, cooked said:

This will be the end of the discussion. I did mention, a fact that you won't have noticed, that for most people Keto is about weight loss, that's what Keto forums are full of. NOWHERE did I say that that is what I believe. I can'r remember ever contradicting what you have written in this your last post.

Nevertheless everybody IS different, sorry about that. I didn't ever say that metaboloism works differently for different people, but that it affects different people in different ways and to different degrees.

There is someone like you in every Keto discussion. 

So there was ONE bubble that got popped: I thought you were at least moderately intelligent.

People that are SERIOUS about embracing "keto" don't go to the silly type of forums you refer to, and their interest in Keto has nothing whatsoever to do with weight loss dieting.  In fact Keto is the antithesis of dieting!

 

People who are interested in "Keto" are interested in optimizing the metabolic state of their body.  Keto is NOT a diet for weight loss.  In fact, it is not even a diet, nor a lifestyle at all!  Loosing excess fat and avoiding obesity may be a by-product of becoming keto-adapted but it is NEVER the goal by those who really understand what keto is all about.

 

"Keto" is short for keto adaptation.  It is the means for re-establishing healthy metabolic pathways that people used to have before the advent of heavily processed foods and the "grazing" lifestyle most people have today where they consume food (predominantly carbohydrates found in processed foods) from the moment they awake to the moment they go to bed, non-stop.

 

Keto adaptation retrains the metabolic pathways so that fats can once again become a viable fuel source for the body and brain, and not be forced to rely entirely on carbohydrates.  As a result, insulin insensitivity is brought under control, and stored fats can play a role in fueling the body and brain as it was intended to do, instead of just being stored as body fat and fat around the liver.

 

Keto is not a really even a lifestyle; it's only a phase you go through to retrain your body, and once that's occurred, you reintroduce "healthy carbs" back into your diet.  

 

The whole process can take only weeks in some people, months in others, bu the result for most who do it seriously and correctly is a profound improvement in health, and just as importantly, as protection against many diseases states, and (especially important during Covid), a more robust immune response.  

 

The reason for this interest in so many knowledgable people, aside from the obvious link between excessive carbohydrates and insulin insensitivity, which ultimately will lead to Diabetes type 2 and morbid obesity (both of which are now at epidemic levels around the world), is that more and more pathologies such as many neurological diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and dementia, that were formerly believed to have genetic causes, are increasingly believed by scientists to be strongly related to one's poor metabolic health as a primary cause.

 

Only health gurus wackos looking for a way to monetize on this emerging science, and silly people looking for easy weight loss solutions look at Keto in such absurd and silly ways that you describe!

 

Comments like yours are an insult to the legitimate and ground breaking research into metabolic sciences, and the people who are open-minded and objective enough to explore them for their own well-being.  A Nobel Prize was awarded to one of the researchers doing this type of metabolic research recently, so for you to dismiss it so arrogantly is laughable!

 

You may believe that somehow, the proven physiology and biochemistry of metabolism don't apply to your particular body; that your body is somehow unique from other people's but that's a pretty ignorant viewpoint. 

 

Nonetheless, it's your right to believe whatever you wish.  It's a shame that you can't respect other people's right to believe what they believe, without feeling the need to call them fanatics, attacking their words, and insulting them just because you don't agree with them....and all without any legitimate science to back up your arguments. 

 

THAT is not the definition of "intelligent".  It's a shame you don't take the time to become truly informed about the metabolic sciences instead of just believing in outdated myths and unfounded pseudoscience...but that's your loss, not mine, or others who believe in staying up to date with science.

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by WaveHunter